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  1. #161
    Because they have no emotion. If you are bleeding to death in a battlefield, then you should not be telling me to "slow down". The only pandaren who aren't having a swell time partying or drinking are corrupted by the sha.

    This is more of an issue with blizzard's storytelling as a whole really. It is increasingly rare that we get to see characters with legitimate emotion because it has to take on some physical form.

    The scarlets want to reclaim their homeland from the mindless undead? Nope, they are the bad guys because demons.
    Forsaken want to lash out against the lich king and the alliance? Nope, they are a splinter group because demons.
    Illidan wants to wage civil war against the legion? Nope, he is bad because demons.
    Mages want to regulate the flow of magic so azeroth doesn't explode a second time? Nope, they have magical insanity.
    Jaina wants to retaliate for the destruction of her city? Nope, let her get over her magic insanity.
    Human masons want compensation for their work? Nope, because black dragons.
    Pandaren want to make a push against the yaungol? Nope, their anger was actually sha.
    The horde wants to make legitamate milatary gains? Nope, they get sha madness.

    This is why people really liked Vanessa Vancleef so much. There was no corruption behind her. No greater evil seeking to drive her insane. She was just a woman who was wronged who led others who were wronged.

    TLDR: More human emotion, less tentacles.

  2. #162
    First, define "childish": "Cute, in a fun sort of way." "Cute, whimsical, and playful." It isn't really anything negative.

    Warcraft has been childish since Warcraft II - click on a sheep long enough and they explode. Gnomes. Etc...

    The problem with MOP was not that it has childish elements. It is that it has huge swaths of "childishness" and it encroaches into virtually every aspect of the game. There are three key experiences that really did not sit well with me...

    The first was when they released the opening cinematic. A) The infamous "awestruck" moment - the first time I've heard an adult laugh out loud at a WoW opening cinematic. B) My 5-year old daughter walked in and saw it and immediately yelled out "Kung Fu Panda!" in excitement - I didn't even know what that was at the time. No BS.

    The second was during beta when they closed Jade Forest. I was stuck in Valley of the Four Winds. There was silly quest after silly quest after silly quest. Li Li.

    The third was queue after queue after queue placing me in Stormstout Brewery. That was a barrel o' monkeys, if you know what I mean.

    Childishness and sillyness are not a bad thing in WoW. I just think they failed to ground the absurdity with believability. They always asked "Is it fun?" but failed to ask "Is it appropriate?". Got subtlety?

    I don't think I would go so far as to call WoW or MoP childish as a whole, but I find it hard to argue MoP did not bring most "childish" content in WoW. How would you rank these in all of WoW: What cinematic is the most "childish"? What dungeon is the most "childish"? What zone is the most "childish"? What playable race is the most "childish"? What mob is the most "childish"? There are some runners up... BC cinematic warlock frying murlocs... Gnomergan... Uldum... Gnomes... Kobolds... But I think MoP wins across the board, even if not by a large margin.

    Basically, they took a spice to the game and made it a staple. Too much cute, whimsical & playful - not enough solemn & thoughtful. Don't get me wrong, both exist aplenty in MoP, but the Yin and Yang did not find balance in Pandaria. They found extremes.

  3. #163
    They could have dispelled any illusions that Pandaren are childish by adding 'scar' options to their models, and having some of the Pandaren NPC's have utterly mauled features. I don't think anyone with any amount of honesty could call Taran Zhu childish if he had a massive gauge carved into the side of his face, for example.

    But hey, its a case of 'bright on the outside, dark on the inside'. The ones calling it childish just show they only looked at MoP in the most superficial manner possible.

  4. #164
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    Jazz Jackrabbits. A zone devoted to rabbits with colossal heads and tiny bodies, saying random things and stealing massive vegetables. Really immerses you into the lore. Right?

    Hozen spamming me down about being Ooked in the Dook. I'll Ook you, Dooker. Dook of Ook. And yes, you shall be Ooked in the Dook, Dooker. Piss off.

    A dungeon revolving around Beer Elementals. Seems legit.

    I don't care too much about Pandaren being pandas, but they could have at least pretended they weren't directly copying Asian culture in an unrelated fantasy world. Malayan Quilrats? The Malayan islands are in WoW too? Mt Neverest? Really? Really?

    It wasn't the deal-breaker for me, I simply couldn't get immersed in the expansion like I could with previous pre-Cata expansions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    But hey, its a case of 'bright on the outside, dark on the inside'. The ones calling it childish just show they only looked at MoP in the most superficial manner possible.
    Enough with that nonsense. We're all well aware of what's beneath the surface. We still have to play with the immersion-breaking surface though, astonishingly enough.

  5. #165
    "The second was during beta when they closed Jade Forest. I was stuck in Valley of the Four Winds. There was silly quest after silly quest after silly quest. Li Li."

    Considering how boring and bad Jade Forest quests were until they closed it down and changed everything, Four Winds was refreshing.

    Note: Was.

  6. #166
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Konker View Post
    First, define "childish": "Cute, in a fun sort of way." "Cute, whimsical, and playful." It isn't really anything negative.

    Warcraft has been childish since Warcraft II - click on a sheep long enough and they explode. Gnomes. Etc...

    The problem with MOP was not that it has childish elements. It is that it has huge swaths of "childishness" and it encroaches into virtually every aspect of the game. There are three key experiences that really did not sit well with me...

    The first was when they released the opening cinematic. A) The infamous "awestruck" moment - the first time I've heard an adult laugh out loud at a WoW opening cinematic. B) My 5-year old daughter walked in and saw it and immediately yelled out "Kung Fu Panda!" in excitement - I didn't even know what that was at the time. No BS.

    The second was during beta when they closed Jade Forest. I was stuck in Valley of the Four Winds. There was silly quest after silly quest after silly quest. Li Li.

    The third was queue after queue after queue placing me in Stormstout Brewery. That was a barrel o' monkeys, if you know what I mean.

    Childishness and sillyness are not a bad thing in WoW. I just think they failed to ground the absurdity with believability. They always asked "Is it fun?" but failed to ask "Is it appropriate?". Got subtlety?

    I don't think I would go so far as to call WoW or MoP childish as a whole, but I find it hard to argue MoP did not bring most "childish" content in WoW. How would you rank these in all of WoW: What cinematic is the most "childish"? What dungeon is the most "childish"? What zone is the most "childish"? What playable race is the most "childish"? What mob is the most "childish"? There are some runners up... BC cinematic warlock frying murlocs... Gnomergan... Uldum... Gnomes... Kobolds... But I think MoP wins across the board, even if not by a large margin.

    Basically, they took a spice to the game and made it a staple. Too much cute, whimsical & playful - not enough solemn & thoughtful. Don't get me wrong, both exist aplenty in MoP, but the Yin and Yang did not find balance in Pandaria. They found extremes.
    As so eloquently put it yourself later on in the post, there is "click on a sheep" month phyton kind of funny, and then there is "stormstout brewery" Adam Sandler kind of funny.
    Mop is more Adam Sandler than monty phyton.

  7. #167
    vermin? no different then things like kobolds, snowbolds, gorlocs.

    hozen? no different then things like the sporelings, furbolg, wolvar

    pandaren? no different then races like dwarves, gnomes, goblins

    you people consistently mention the same three things while ignorantly ignoring the same things in the past.

    ungoro crater? an entire zone dedicated to dinosaurs and nintendo references

    sholozar? an entire zone dedicated to a drunken dwarf who sends you to smack animal arses and two comic relief races, one who is basically the hozen the other, the gorlocs, are like children talking about shiny things with names like roo and soo soo

    uldum? half the zone is an indiana jones reference

    the pandaren are no less childish then dwarves, in fact pandaren are pretty much furry dwarves except they do martial arts instead of big hammers and axes and have less awesome beards.

    and people who say they "dont fit in the lore" yeah? well neither did fucking space goats who worship windchimes who never existed before the expansion they were introduced, oh and by the way not only did they NOT exist, they retconned the origin story of sargeras, turned the native ORIGINAL draenei, now called the lost ones/broken into cursed mutants.

    i dont know about any fantasy you all read but anthromorphic animals are WAY more common then fucking space goats that fly in giant space ships.

    the truth is that they arent childish, you are just insecure
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    vermin? no different then things like kobolds, snowbolds, gorlocs.

    hozen? no different then things like the sporelings, furbolg, wolvar

    pandaren? no different then races like dwarves, gnomes, goblins

    you people consistently mention the same three things while ignorantly ignoring the same things in the past.

    ungoro crater? an entire zone dedicated to dinosaurs and nintendo references

    sholozar? an entire zone dedicated to a drunken dwarf who sends you to smack animal arses and two comic relief races, one who is basically the hozen the other, the gorlocs, are like children talking about shiny things with names like roo and soo soo

    uldum? half the zone is an indiana jones reference

    the pandaren are no less childish then dwarves, in fact pandaren are pretty much furry dwarves except they do martial arts instead of big hammers and axes and have less awesome beards.

    and people who say they "dont fit in the lore" yeah? well neither did fucking space goats who worship windchimes who never existed before the expansion they were introduced, oh and by the way not only did they NOT exist, they retconned the origin story of sargeras, turned the native ORIGINAL draenei, now called the lost ones/broken into cursed mutants.

    i dont know about any fantasy you all read but anthromorphic animals are WAY more common then fucking space goats that fly in giant space ships.

    the truth is that they arent childish, you are just insecure
    *Insert south park voice*
    We are here giving you a new security system ... It's called "Insecurity"

  9. #169
    Deleted
    While my main gripe with MoP isn't that it was "childish", I can see why some people might think that way, it just felt a bit more "slapstick" then usual. I dunno, the whole pandas and pan-asian theme just felt a little goofy and didn't appeal to me personally.

  10. #170
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    vermin? no different then things like kobolds, snowbolds, gorlocs.

    hozen? no different then things like the sporelings, furbolg, wolvar

    pandaren? no different then races like dwarves, gnomes, goblins

    you people consistently mention the same three things while ignorantly ignoring the same things in the past.

    ungoro crater? an entire zone dedicated to dinosaurs and nintendo references

    sholozar? an entire zone dedicated to a drunken dwarf who sends you to smack animal arses and two comic relief races, one who is basically the hozen the other, the gorlocs, are like children talking about shiny things with names like roo and soo soo

    uldum? half the zone is an indiana jones reference

    the pandaren are no less childish then dwarves, in fact pandaren are pretty much furry dwarves except they do martial arts instead of big hammers and axes and have less awesome beards.

    and people who say they "dont fit in the lore" yeah? well neither did fucking space goats who worship windchimes who never existed before the expansion they were introduced, oh and by the way not only did they NOT exist, they retconned the origin story of sargeras, turned the native ORIGINAL draenei, now called the lost ones/broken into cursed mutants.

    i dont know about any fantasy you all read but anthromorphic animals are WAY more common then fucking space goats that fly in giant space ships.

    the truth is that they arent childish, you are just insecure
    Why, why do you do this to yourself?

    1) they dont have 1 whole zone plus a whole dungeon on kobolds do they. Mainly a couple quests here and there. And kobolds look vicious enough. At least they don't go around stealing big lumps of oversized cheese.

    2)sporelings, fulborg and wolvar have all extremely dark EXTREMELY dark and interesting content.
    Sporelings being killed by giants, fulborgs and corruption everywhere, wolvar and their lands being destroyed.
    They also aren't talking in this dooking ridiculous language I would have found funny at 7 years of age. And only the first time.
    They also (again) don't have a whole zone AND dungeon apart perhaps fulborg, which shouldn't even be in the list since, have you looked at them closely? That's actually how pandaren should have looked in my opinion.
    3)pandaren ARE different when compared to gnomes or Tauren simply because with pandaren blizzard MADE WELL SURE to include ridiculous overwhelming references a la Adam Sandler.
    Epicurean? Bouncy? extra jelly belly AND nomnom language? Yeh, subtle. Didn't get that they were fat thanks blizz for reminding me 18 times.
    Tauren do not talk in "moo's" and gnomes don't have racials making fun of their stature. Not 3 of them at least
    That's what makes pandaren different from the rest. Oh and of course the fact that they look ridiculous with that disgusting extra belly and idiotic smile but hey. That's personal. The rest unfortunately isn't.
    4) yes ungoro was dedicated to dinosaurs and had a couple of VERY clever references to zelda. Unless you PERHAPS are you trying to compare the level, number and quality of references pre-cata and post-cata.
    5) sholazar? Have you, like, quested in sholazar? The whole eastern area is majestic, with the zombies pouring in from icecrown.
    6) yes uldum is shite. Worst zone after valley of four winds, since at least in uldum we have a captivating design. Still uninspiring but better than valley for sure. But then again mate, the fact that we ate shit once doesn't mean we should dine with diharrea.

    Overall, you're arguing about pandaren in their entirety, we're arguing with the way they were introduced.
    Big difference.

    *insert clever punt about childless insecurity something something you*
    Last edited by mmocea043e1e13; 2013-11-12 at 11:24 AM.

  11. #171
    Also worth mentioning is that MoP had one primary goal:

    To attract Chinese players.

    Most recent subscription losses were from China. Success?

  12. #172
    Pandaren Monk Constraint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    vermin? no different then things like kobolds, snowbolds, gorlocs.

    hozen? no different then things like the sporelings, furbolg, wolvar

    pandaren? no different then races like dwarves, gnomes, goblins

    you people consistently mention the same three things while ignorantly ignoring the same things in the past.

    ungoro crater? an entire zone dedicated to dinosaurs and nintendo references

    sholozar? an entire zone dedicated to a drunken dwarf who sends you to smack animal arses and two comic relief races, one who is basically the hozen the other, the gorlocs, are like children talking about shiny things with names like roo and soo soo

    uldum? half the zone is an indiana jones reference

    the pandaren are no less childish then dwarves, in fact pandaren are pretty much furry dwarves except they do martial arts instead of big hammers and axes and have less awesome beards.

    and people who say they "dont fit in the lore" yeah? well neither did fucking space goats who worship windchimes who never existed before the expansion they were introduced, oh and by the way not only did they NOT exist, they retconned the origin story of sargeras, turned the native ORIGINAL draenei, now called the lost ones/broken into cursed mutants.

    i dont know about any fantasy you all read but anthromorphic animals are WAY more common then fucking space goats that fly in giant space ships.

    the truth is that they arent childish, you are just insecure
    I presume you're either high, trolling, or clueless.

    Agreed, Gorlocs were a little ridiculous too. At least Kobolds, Snowbolds etc didn't roam farms, stealing MASSIVE carrots while spouting out the most retarded nonsense the game's ever seen.

    How the hell are Hozen even remotely comparable to those other races? Were they everywhere, spamming you down about being Ooked in the Dook, I'll Dook You Ooker, The Dook of Ook shall Ook you in the Dook etc etc etc? No. They weren't. Another immersion breaker.

    Didn't know pandas were similar to other, established races that have been around for decades in Warcraft lore, but sure. Whatever floats your boat.

    There's pop culture reference in every zone ever created by Blizzard. You'll get used to it. Comparing Un'Goro to MoP because it has dinosaurs? Wow. Imagine large raptors etc in WoW. That'd really destroy my immersion, too.

    I presume you haven't played too much Sholazar. Oh and that "drunken dwarf" has been around since vanilla, and is a rather famous hunter. Imagine him hunting in.. a jungle, with lots of animals. Shucks. Another surprise. Oh and the zone also included a lottt of other stuff, like Titan lore, scourge invasion/corruption etc

    Uldum sucked, agreed, the Indiana RP got prettttty tiresome for me too.

    Not sure how the fact that Draenei don't fit into your vision of the lore actually impacts whether or not Pandas are childish. They are, and Draenei aren't.

    Don't be discouraged though, I find your vehemence to make up as many nonsensical points in as short a space of time as possible to be rather endearing. Keep it up, friend.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    No offense, but I don't think anyone is going to take advice on what is childish or not by someone with a pokemon avatar.

    Aren't you like 16 yourself or something? You always gave that impression to me, so perhaps for you it's different to understand which things are culturaly appropriate for one's age.
    pokemon is the 2nd best selling video game series in the world and is played by people of all ages. it also has an incredibly complex meta game that requires more strategy then most heroic raids in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Why, why do you do this to yourself?

    1) they dont have 1 whole zone plus a whole dungeon on kobolds do they. Mainly a couple quests here and there. And kobolds look vicious enough. At least they don't go around stealing big lumps of oversized cheese.

    2)sporelings, fulborg and wolvar have all extremely dark EXTREMELY dark and interesting content.
    Sporelings being killed by giants, fulborgs and corruption everywhere, wolvar and their lands being destroyed.
    They also aren't talking in this dooking ridiculous language I would have found funny at 7 years of age. And only the first time.
    They also (again) don't have a whole zone AND dungeon apart perhaps fulborg, which shouldn't even be in the list since, have you looked at them closely? That's actually how pandaren should have looked in my opinion.
    3)pandaren ARE different when compared to gnomes or Tauren simply because with pandaren blizzard MADE WELL SURE to include ridiculous overwhelming references a la Adam Sandler.
    Epicurean? Bouncy? extra jelly belly AND nomnom language? Yeh, subtle. Didn't get that they were fat thanks blizz for reminding me 18 times.
    Tauren do not talk in "moo's" and gnomes don't have racials making fun of their stature. Not 3 of them at least
    That's what makes pandaren different from the rest. Oh and of course the fact that they look ridiculous with that disgusting extra belly and idiotic smile but hey. That's personal. The rest unfortunately isn't.
    4) yes ungoro was dedicated to dinosaurs and had a couple of VERY clever references to zelda. Unless you PERHAPS are you trying to compare the level, number and quality of references pre-cata and post-cata.
    5) sholazar? Have you, like, quested in sholazar? The whole eastern area is majestic, with the zombies pouring in from icecrown.
    6) yes uldum is shite. Worst zone after valley of four winds, since at least in uldum we have a captivating design. Still uninspiring but better than valley for sure. But then again mate, the fact that we ate shit once doesn't mean we should dine with diharrea.

    Overall, you're arguing about pandaren in their entirety, we're arguing with the way they were introduced.
    Big difference.

    *insert clever punt about childless insecurity something something you*
    a whole dungeon? try one boss. they werent trying to make the gnomes taurens and goblins ridiculous? really?

    you people consistently prove my point over and over again, your statements come from ignorance of both the present and the past
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  14. #174
    Deleted
    Well I didn't find the game itself childish. I mean what's the problem with pandamen when you have cowmen, wolfmen, space-goatsquidman, ratman, hyenaman, fishman, etc. The only thing childish about it was the playerbase.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    But hey, its a case of 'bright on the outside, dark on the inside'. The ones calling it childish just show they only looked at MoP in the most superficial manner possible.
    Maybe that "dark on the inside" part would be better presented by, I dont know, actualy affecting the "bright on the outside" part.

    Take Valley of the Four Winds. Wasnt that whole place fertilized with that water from Eternal Blossoms? After the source was corrupted then what? Did those farmlands wither? No, everything was allright, NOTHING HAPPENED!

    We were presented these people that dont need to worry about anything, perfect setting for a downfall. We dont get that, no one suffers and if someone does, its remedied extremely quickly.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Thanks for proving my point.
    that you were wrong? have you ever played a pokemon game?

    if you want a perfect team in pokemon in order to battle competitively you need to grind more than anyone ever grinded in vanilla wow, and you need to strategize more than a hardcore raid leader

    you have to breed for the perfect nature, perfect ivs, (which you cant actually see by the way you have to find out a pokemons base stats then compare) you have to ev train it which until the most recent games was also something you couldnt actually see, you have to pick which item it will hold, you have to figure out which moves it will use and whether or not those moves will have a stab, whether or not it meshes well with the rest of the moves and ontop of that you have to do it again 5 more times in a way that meshes well with your team and strategy.

    all of which can take 100s of hours to accomplish
    Last edited by Immitis; 2013-11-12 at 11:45 AM.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  17. #177
    I find the pandaren childish, because I'm used to relate pandas to child stuff. Also they made them deliberately idiotic (my opinion) laughing like retards, fat and always talking about noodles. When they run and fight chunks of fat just swing around, which I find funny, but also not very pleasant for what I consider a serious MMO. It was not difficult at all to make them a bit more ferocious. Pandaria as a country I find too colorful, but this is very subjective.

    Also, half of the leveling experience in the expansion is centered around exterminating vermin, making beer and returning stolen carrots/turnips.

    Again, my opinion, not looking to get into a "Kung-Fu Panda" argument.
    Last edited by Pyromanyac; 2013-11-12 at 12:05 PM.

  18. #178
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    pokemon is the 2nd best selling video game series in the world and is played by people of all ages. it also has an incredibly complex meta game that requires more strategy then most heroic raids in wow.

    - - - Updated - - -



    a whole dungeon? try one boss. they werent trying to make the gnomes taurens and goblins ridiculous? really?

    you people consistently prove my point over and over again, your statements come from ignorance of both the present and the past
    One boss too many.
    Yes they weren't trying to make goblins and Tauren look ridiculous by NOT adding 5 silly references each race about the funny aspects of their look WHICH INSTEAD they DID do with pandaren.

    *insert clever shallow punt about past future and childhood traumas*

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    that you were wrong? have you ever played a pokemon game?

    if you want a perfect team in pokemon in order to battle competitively you need to grind more than anyone ever grinded in vanilla wow, and you need to strategize more than a hardcore raid leader

    you have to breed for the perfect nature, perfect ivs, (which you cant actually see by the way you have to find out a pokemons base stats then compare) you have to ev train it which until the most recent games was also something you couldnt actually see, you have to pick which item it will hold, you have to figure out which moves it will use and whether or not those moves will have a stab, whether or not it meshes well with the rest of the moves and ontop of that you have to do it again 5 more times in a way that meshes well with your team and strategy.

    all of which can take 100s of hours to accomplish
    Apparently spending 100's of hours on something means its not childish.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the truth is that they arent childish, you are just insecure
    Anyways...

    What I think many people need to realize is that childish is not a binary function of true or false. It's pieces relative to the whole. While WoW has always been childish, it has never been this childish. Of course you can go back and find a niche of silliness here and a niche of silliness there, but until MoP it would have been a strech to call the silliness prominent. In MOP I think there is a good case for it.

    All they really had to do was ground the same themes they did use in MoP to make Pandarea a bit more of a believable, realized world. I don't think they made that a high enough priority.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Apparently spending 100's of hours on something means its not childish.
    if you think pokemon is childish you must think all turn based rpgs are childish or min maxing in wow is childish.
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

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