Tank responsibility is a lot greater than healer or dps responsibility.
Tank responsibility is a lot greater than healer or dps responsibility.
Which should be changed. Healers and DPS need to be held responsible. A good chunk of dps dying/failing should mean a wipe, not that the top 4 will continue to carry the group. A healer completely not healing? Yea probably not going to end well with lack of raid cooldowns. Determination contributes to this issue, since groups would rather stack it then kick bad players.
How about, "Be nice to everyone regardless of their spec/role"?
This whole walking on eggshells around certain roles is dangerous. It breeds the thinking that a certain role is "above" others, which is where we get the ego-crazed players from. It doesn't matter what role someone is playing, just don't be a jerk anyway.
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This GREATLY depends what content you are talking about, and is incorrect as a blanket statement.
Originally Posted by Tseric
"being nice' is kinda vague. If somebody is not able to pull their own weight in a group, there is nothing mean about kicking them. There is also nothing mean about criticizing a blood DK gemming crit or a mage gemming spirit. However, by a lot of the player bases definition, that is being a "toxic elitist no-life dirtbag buzzword buzzword scum". But on the same token they want people to choose to come into a group and, especially as a tank, work hard. If Blizzard decided to have another boss that had dps requirements like Ultraxion did in LFR people would be crying again, because the LFR community has decided that dps would be the afk/do nothing role, and Blizzards stupid loot specialization let that happen, as well as nerfing the content so much
I'm sorry, i quit tanking LFR the day my blood DK pulled 4th dps on Jinrokh. we had 5 people dead and the 4th pool was just hit by the storm, he was at 20%. Somehow we miraculously got it down. I said kick the low dps that was terrible. I dont think you can really argue that having 1/5 of the bosses healthpool left at the end of a fight that is just a dps race means anything other than bad dps. What happened? I was just insulted. Why dont I go afk on Horridon and let the healers work their ass off, because I know it was tough to survive through the last 20% with my OT dead, I worked my ass off because the dps choose not to. There is nothing mean about saying kick the deadweight when they are half afk, have no idea whats going on, and taking up a spot that could be used by a player who knows whats going on.
For a boss to die, so much has to be done. Every person who doesnt do their part means others have to work harder. And thats what LFR has turned into. have somebody else do the work, then along with the 5 other people getting free rides, defend yourself when called out.
My tank is my alt. I did some LFR when SoO first came out and it was an awful experience. I had a 510 item level at the time. People would instantly say something about my gear in raid chat, while ignoring DPS or healers with far worse. There would be people running up to mobs and pulling immediately, and if I didn't pick them up (the second tank is usually AFK) I'd get the brunt of the blame. Better geared tanks who had heroic Throne on farm would just tell me to taunt off when I had to and that they'd do everything else. I read up on the fights and knew how to execute them in theory, mind you. I didn't like taking the back seat or being useless. Another point of annoyance was when I was trying to explain the fight and the other tank would just pull while I wasn't ready, or DPS/healers would start whining about the tanks taking so long. In short, yeah, be nice to your tanks. I don't do LFR anymore on mine.
I mean it in a common sense approach kind of way (not insinuating your post isn't using common sense, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying).
Sure, kick that guy who can't pull his weight, but there's no need for the flaming comments. There's not really any need for any comment at all, except perhaps a "Let's kick XYZ guy, he's not pulling his weight for this encounter" to rally enough vote kicks in. That isn't mean, it's realistic.
You can approach that DK or that Mage about their gemming choices without flaming. "Hey, Mage, you shouldn't be gemming for Spirit?" is a lot different to "OMFG you noob, go kill yourself, unsubscribe, you're so bad".
Sure, players are sometimes SO BAD it's hard to even believe what you're seeing. But there's absolutely no point or justification for being a total jerk about it. If you don't like them or the way they play, remove them from the group and carry on. Some of the disgusting comments I see from players are just so unnecessary and ridiculous. Sadly, the comment above about "killing yourself" is not an exaggeration, and something I saw recently in a battleground. It's just childish, dumb crap, seriously.
Originally Posted by Tseric
In my experience in regards to tanks being kicked, it's usually because they don't bother asking for explanations or tactics, and remain silent throughout the ensuing inquisition into their credentials.
In my experience, if a tank asks for tactics people won't have a problem explaining.
I tank LFR all the time. I'm a 7/14H warrior tank, and my alt is a BrM monk that I tank LFRs with. I think its safe to say I know the fights. And yet, every time the offtank dies to doing something stupid, he is the first one to call out in raid chat "OMG WTF OTHER TANK WHY U LET ME DIE?" and I've been kicked at least twice from this outburst. Now some of the time people will just laugh and tell the other tank it was his fault, but many times people just believe the screaming dead tank and get mad at me for whatever stupid thing he did (taunting the boss off me when he still has a bunch of stacks? GOOD PLAN BRO).
I agree,"OMFG you noob, go kill yourself, unsubscribe, you're so bad" is being mean. However, there are alot of people who find saying "Kick XYZ hes dps is bad" to be just mean and toxic, or for somebody to inspect another player and critique them to be...kinda hard to phrase...trying to dictate how somebody else should play the game?
I know people say kill yourself, and tbh I can somewhat understand. On your 400th WSG at level 90 to see 5 people still skirmishing in the middle gets you upset. Should you speak like that? No not really, but at that point, so many times has it happened that you are fed up.
The real issue is that in LFR it takes alot of people to start a kick, and many will ignore complaints about pisspoor dps getting carried.
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The thing is, the LFR community generally will defend other poor players. In an LFR there are about 3 good players, 7 average, and 15 bad. The 10 average+ and whatever bad will automatically click yes would be able to vote out those from the 15, so many times the 15 will defend themselves.
Unfortunately tank hostility isn't reserved to just bad tanks. I got yelled at last LFR for having the nerve to mark targets on Klaxxi and announce which one to DPS in raid warning after we failed on our first pull due to berserk (people failed at DPSing Korven and just having split DPS in general). Oh. And I had to tank EVERYTHING because my co-tank was an idiot.
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It is not as much of the PuG community as it is the random queue community and its accessibility towards self centered players who dont get along with others. Those who move to things like Flex to PuG are not doing such because they have entitlement issues due to queues as a PuG group doesnt get going until the RL says so which means everyone waits based on how early they joined a group to when it is "full". In LFR tanks as an individual have far more responsibility than any other roll. This responsibility ends up leveling out on the harder difficulties where Blizzard will punish the group for one DPS's mistake while LFR players will get in a shit storm and cry for nerfs if DPS are asked to be held personally responsible for their own actions.
Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-11-19 at 05:15 AM.
Not true, just Blizzs way of passing the buck for poorly designed tank classes an boring tank fights
As I said - LFR is only easy when compared to higher difficulties.
The majority of folks running through the LFR system have never set foot in a heroic and may not ever have even been in a normal - not even once. This is the difficult part that many of the more hardcore players seem to have trouble grasping.
Pre-LFR, almost no-one raided if you examined the complete WoW playerbase. Without LFR, Blizzard would seriously have to reduce the amount of raid content they were able to generate and spend the dollars elsewhere. So - if you want to keep having a game that is raid, raid, raid - then you should be begging Blizzard to keep making LFR extremely easy compared to the other difficulties.
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Actually, I look at it from a different perspective.
Blizzard (and other devs) keep listening to a tiny percentage of the playerbase and keep making content that requires a tank role that is largely arbitrarily created. Here's the problem:
25man raiding is/should be 5 logical and functioning groups. This would ideally mean 5 tanks, 5 healers and 15 DPS.
It is extremely difficult to make several bosses require 2 to 3 tanks, let alone 5 - so devs have given up and settled for 2. This ends up creating a psychological issue for would-be tanks - why spend weeks of raid lockouts/Valor points building a set of tanking gear to get benched. Instead, build a DPS set and be able to compete for a DPS slot.
This reduces the would-be 20% of players that would raid as tanks down to 8%. Is there any wonder there is a long queue while that 8% of would-be tanks attempt to fill all the raids needing tanks?
The real fix would be to design content that no longer requires the tank role - since it is highly unpopular for several reasons; however, it seems that several people are fixated on that one hero of a player that must be a pixelated Superman.
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The first question I'd ask is why are there enrage timers in LFR?
I gave up on tanking.
1. You have to know the fights exactly without ever doing them before (videos only go so far)
2. You have to have the gear without actually having the gear from downing the bosses a bunch of time before
3. You have to contend with DPS/healer that expect you to have #1 and #2
I have tanked on various toons on/off since Vanilla, including MT and raid leading 40 mans all the way to some MoP LFR.
It's just not worth the headache.
I've spent far, far too many nights in raid smacking a boss in the crotch while the rest of the raid actually gets to see the fight and participate in the fun mechanics.
Last edited by heerobya; 2013-11-19 at 06:55 PM.
Be nice to your tanks? No. Tanks aren't special snow flakes. I dislike most tanks.
When _I_ tank, it's balls to the wall, get this dungeon done and achieving the goal(more exp/JP for your time).
When I dps, other thanks are slow, boring and generally retarded. So of course I'm going to pull for you if your dps and heals are falling asleep. It's not our fault if you have poor skills. Just AOE and keep running, it's not hard.
In regards to LFR, this can be a headache but that's only because the player base is retarded now because blizzard allows it. You don't have to know the mechanics of a fight going in anymore. Just bang your keys while you watch tv. That's annoying for tanks because they have to actually do something. Even it out so tanks can stand there and bash on keys while watching tv like everyone else. That is the only thing that is unfair.
Last edited by Woa; 2013-11-19 at 06:51 PM.
What you consider "average skill level" may not be what the "average skill level" actually is for the playerbase as a whole.
They do LFR to make their character better - much for the same reason that heroic mode has to offer better gear as a bribe to get people to do it too. If it was all about challenge, then heroic mode raiding wouldn't need to award better gear, would it?Many players in LFR find challenging content unfun, god knows why they do LFR for gear since they will never go higher but to each their own. However, their unwillingness to fix it themselves is why LFR keeps getting worse and worse. If people had came to the forums pleading Blizzard to fix the vote kick system because the group cannot remove bad players who are wiping the group, Blizzard would have done that. But no, they wanted Blizzard to make it easier, because many ARE bad players who would be kicked.
Wouldn't it be sweeter to shout from the mountaintops, "Hey newbs, look what I did while wearing the same crap you got! - Yeah, worship me!"
50k dps is low but there is not exactly an in-game method of measuring what is low and what is not. I've seen several heroic geared players in my LFRs that drastically skew the DPS spread for a boss. LFR gear is not going to let someone do 180k dps - which is what a lot of people seem to think it will do. My shadowpriest is pretty much at LFR level (534ish) and I average about 100-110, depending on the fight.50k dps is NOT TOO MUCH. If Blizzard wants players to get better they wont nerf the heck out of every fight when it takes mechanics. Yes, you use LFR to learn, but there is a point where it is just you being deadweight and leeching off those trying. Honestly even in timeless gear, sub 70k is just you being bad in some way. Even with just a 476 weapon.
I'm constantly outdone by folks in there with heroic gear. I wouldn't mind if higher gear tiers were scaled down to LFR level to be honest. Why you coming into my content and trying to be Superman?
One thing that Blizzard learned during the Failaclysm expansion was that if you make it hard and keep it hard - there is a breaking point where 2.3 million subscribers will just leave.
Remember GC's tirading blog post? I do.
Perhaps some further testing is needed with Proving Grounds before people can queue in 6.0?So do you consider calling to kick the bad dps being a douche? What about screaming at the other tank when you have asked 15 times for a taunt with no response. How about people just dying to avoidable mechanics, and wanting them kicked?
There is being insulting, then there is hurting somebodies feelings. Im sorry if you are offended when I say you are bad and your dps sucks, but if you are the moonkin just using moonfire on GCD then you are bad and your dps sucks. If I go and start cursing at all the players who dont have 540+ gear for being terribad shitters, and saying "kick the scrubs under 200k" then I am being a douche. However, where to draw the line?
There are also other things to consider - like all the spell effects on the ground. It's gotten to the point where sometimes it's difficult to tell the good from the bad, especially if the good is overlaid on the bad.
It's also not always the DPS fault. Been in several LFRs now where healers aren't dispelling the bad stuff. DPS can't dispel their own crap. I've died at least once lately to a debuff that I had for a solid 2 minutes that was never dispelled.
Last edited by Raeln; 2013-11-19 at 06:52 PM.
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It's also really hard to jump back into tanking - if you level up getting tanking gear and run heroics for tanking gear and hop into expansion Tier 1 LFR in tanking gear, you're fine - but trying to "catch up" to the current tier with valor/justice or timeless isle etc. tanking gear is like impossible. You have to run the first couple of tiers multiple times and pray you get some good drops - and invest tons of $$ into gems/enchants.
Where as any DPS or heals at 496 can hop into SoO and if you are a decent player, carry your weight.