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  1. #441
    Tank responsibility is a lot greater than healer or dps responsibility.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Tank responsibility is a lot greater than healer or dps responsibility.
    Which should be changed. Healers and DPS need to be held responsible. A good chunk of dps dying/failing should mean a wipe, not that the top 4 will continue to carry the group. A healer completely not healing? Yea probably not going to end well with lack of raid cooldowns. Determination contributes to this issue, since groups would rather stack it then kick bad players.

  3. #443
    How about, "Be nice to everyone regardless of their spec/role"?

    This whole walking on eggshells around certain roles is dangerous. It breeds the thinking that a certain role is "above" others, which is where we get the ego-crazed players from. It doesn't matter what role someone is playing, just don't be a jerk anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeshak View Post
    Tank responsibility is a lot greater than healer or dps responsibility.
    This GREATLY depends what content you are talking about, and is incorrect as a blanket statement.
    Originally Posted by Tseric
    When you can understand how a group of belligerent and angry posters can drive away people from this game with an uncrafted and improvisational campaign of misery and spin-doctoring, then perhaps, you can understand the decisions I make.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by Peyj View Post
    How about, "Be nice to everyone regardless of their spec/role"?

    This whole walking on eggshells around certain roles is dangerous. It breeds the thinking that a certain role is "above" others, which is where we get the ego-crazed players from. It doesn't matter what role someone is playing, just don't be a jerk anyway.

    "being nice' is kinda vague. If somebody is not able to pull their own weight in a group, there is nothing mean about kicking them. There is also nothing mean about criticizing a blood DK gemming crit or a mage gemming spirit. However, by a lot of the player bases definition, that is being a "toxic elitist no-life dirtbag buzzword buzzword scum". But on the same token they want people to choose to come into a group and, especially as a tank, work hard. If Blizzard decided to have another boss that had dps requirements like Ultraxion did in LFR people would be crying again, because the LFR community has decided that dps would be the afk/do nothing role, and Blizzards stupid loot specialization let that happen, as well as nerfing the content so much

    I'm sorry, i quit tanking LFR the day my blood DK pulled 4th dps on Jinrokh. we had 5 people dead and the 4th pool was just hit by the storm, he was at 20%. Somehow we miraculously got it down. I said kick the low dps that was terrible. I dont think you can really argue that having 1/5 of the bosses healthpool left at the end of a fight that is just a dps race means anything other than bad dps. What happened? I was just insulted. Why dont I go afk on Horridon and let the healers work their ass off, because I know it was tough to survive through the last 20% with my OT dead, I worked my ass off because the dps choose not to. There is nothing mean about saying kick the deadweight when they are half afk, have no idea whats going on, and taking up a spot that could be used by a player who knows whats going on.

    For a boss to die, so much has to be done. Every person who doesnt do their part means others have to work harder. And thats what LFR has turned into. have somebody else do the work, then along with the 5 other people getting free rides, defend yourself when called out.

  5. #445
    My tank is my alt. I did some LFR when SoO first came out and it was an awful experience. I had a 510 item level at the time. People would instantly say something about my gear in raid chat, while ignoring DPS or healers with far worse. There would be people running up to mobs and pulling immediately, and if I didn't pick them up (the second tank is usually AFK) I'd get the brunt of the blame. Better geared tanks who had heroic Throne on farm would just tell me to taunt off when I had to and that they'd do everything else. I read up on the fights and knew how to execute them in theory, mind you. I didn't like taking the back seat or being useless. Another point of annoyance was when I was trying to explain the fight and the other tank would just pull while I wasn't ready, or DPS/healers would start whining about the tanks taking so long. In short, yeah, be nice to your tanks. I don't do LFR anymore on mine.

  6. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    "being nice' is kinda vague. If somebody is not able to pull their own weight in a group, there is nothing mean about kicking them. There is also nothing mean about criticizing a blood DK gemming crit or a mage gemming spirit.
    I mean it in a common sense approach kind of way (not insinuating your post isn't using common sense, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying).

    Sure, kick that guy who can't pull his weight, but there's no need for the flaming comments. There's not really any need for any comment at all, except perhaps a "Let's kick XYZ guy, he's not pulling his weight for this encounter" to rally enough vote kicks in. That isn't mean, it's realistic.

    You can approach that DK or that Mage about their gemming choices without flaming. "Hey, Mage, you shouldn't be gemming for Spirit?" is a lot different to "OMFG you noob, go kill yourself, unsubscribe, you're so bad".

    Sure, players are sometimes SO BAD it's hard to even believe what you're seeing. But there's absolutely no point or justification for being a total jerk about it. If you don't like them or the way they play, remove them from the group and carry on. Some of the disgusting comments I see from players are just so unnecessary and ridiculous. Sadly, the comment above about "killing yourself" is not an exaggeration, and something I saw recently in a battleground. It's just childish, dumb crap, seriously.
    Originally Posted by Tseric
    When you can understand how a group of belligerent and angry posters can drive away people from this game with an uncrafted and improvisational campaign of misery and spin-doctoring, then perhaps, you can understand the decisions I make.

  7. #447
    Deleted
    In my experience in regards to tanks being kicked, it's usually because they don't bother asking for explanations or tactics, and remain silent throughout the ensuing inquisition into their credentials.

    In my experience, if a tank asks for tactics people won't have a problem explaining.

  8. #448
    I tank LFR all the time. I'm a 7/14H warrior tank, and my alt is a BrM monk that I tank LFRs with. I think its safe to say I know the fights. And yet, every time the offtank dies to doing something stupid, he is the first one to call out in raid chat "OMG WTF OTHER TANK WHY U LET ME DIE?" and I've been kicked at least twice from this outburst. Now some of the time people will just laugh and tell the other tank it was his fault, but many times people just believe the screaming dead tank and get mad at me for whatever stupid thing he did (taunting the boss off me when he still has a bunch of stacks? GOOD PLAN BRO).

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Peyj View Post
    I mean it in a common sense approach kind of way (not insinuating your post isn't using common sense, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying).

    Sure, kick that guy who can't pull his weight, but there's no need for the flaming comments. There's not really any need for any comment at all, except perhaps a "Let's kick XYZ guy, he's not pulling his weight for this encounter" to rally enough vote kicks in. That isn't mean, it's realistic.

    You can approach that DK or that Mage about their gemming choices without flaming. "Hey, Mage, you shouldn't be gemming for Spirit?" is a lot different to "OMFG you noob, go kill yourself, unsubscribe, you're so bad".

    Sure, players are sometimes SO BAD it's hard to even believe what you're seeing. But there's absolutely no point or justification for being a total jerk about it. If you don't like them or the way they play, remove them from the group and carry on. Some of the disgusting comments I see from players are just so unnecessary and ridiculous. Sadly, the comment above about "killing yourself" is not an exaggeration, and something I saw recently in a battleground. It's just childish, dumb crap, seriously.
    I agree,"OMFG you noob, go kill yourself, unsubscribe, you're so bad" is being mean. However, there are alot of people who find saying "Kick XYZ hes dps is bad" to be just mean and toxic, or for somebody to inspect another player and critique them to be...kinda hard to phrase...trying to dictate how somebody else should play the game?

    I know people say kill yourself, and tbh I can somewhat understand. On your 400th WSG at level 90 to see 5 people still skirmishing in the middle gets you upset. Should you speak like that? No not really, but at that point, so many times has it happened that you are fed up.

    The real issue is that in LFR it takes alot of people to start a kick, and many will ignore complaints about pisspoor dps getting carried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyoran View Post
    I tank LFR all the time. I'm a 7/14H warrior tank, and my alt is a BrM monk that I tank LFRs with. I think its safe to say I know the fights. And yet, every time the offtank dies to doing something stupid, he is the first one to call out in raid chat "OMG WTF OTHER TANK WHY U LET ME DIE?" and I've been kicked at least twice from this outburst. Now some of the time people will just laugh and tell the other tank it was his fault, but many times people just believe the screaming dead tank and get mad at me for whatever stupid thing he did (taunting the boss off me when he still has a bunch of stacks? GOOD PLAN BRO).
    The thing is, the LFR community generally will defend other poor players. In an LFR there are about 3 good players, 7 average, and 15 bad. The 10 average+ and whatever bad will automatically click yes would be able to vote out those from the 15, so many times the 15 will defend themselves.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Yes View Post
    Be nice? That gets you and the tanks nowhere.

    If they are garbage, it's your responsibility to tell them. In order for a bad tank to get better, they first need to know that they're bad so they can learn to get better. It's not anyone but the tanks fault.

    I'm sure if we just took out Lfr there would be less bad tanks.
    Unfortunately tank hostility isn't reserved to just bad tanks. I got yelled at last LFR for having the nerve to mark targets on Klaxxi and announce which one to DPS in raid warning after we failed on our first pull due to berserk (people failed at DPSing Korven and just having split DPS in general). Oh. And I had to tank EVERYTHING because my co-tank was an idiot.

    Currently playing Borderlands 1 remaster. Amped for Borderlands 3.
    Add me on the PSN for jolly-cooperation @ PuppetShoJustice

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by AMonkey View Post
    The PUG community in general is awful and tanks are able to feel entitled when they have <10 minute queues. Everyone is to blame.
    It is not as much of the PuG community as it is the random queue community and its accessibility towards self centered players who dont get along with others. Those who move to things like Flex to PuG are not doing such because they have entitlement issues due to queues as a PuG group doesnt get going until the RL says so which means everyone waits based on how early they joined a group to when it is "full". In LFR tanks as an individual have far more responsibility than any other roll. This responsibility ends up leveling out on the harder difficulties where Blizzard will punish the group for one DPS's mistake while LFR players will get in a shit storm and cry for nerfs if DPS are asked to be held personally responsible for their own actions.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-11-19 at 05:15 AM.

  12. #452
    Not true, just Blizzs way of passing the buck for poorly designed tank classes an boring tank fights

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by suitepee7 View Post
    to be honest i've only ever seen 3 types of tank in LFR

    1) the guy who knows what he is doing, likely has at least flex/normal gear, pretty much gets it spot on and a wipe is never his fault alone
    2) the guy who knows what he is doing, but is an absolute cunt about it, and is a douche to the whole raid for not being perfect. is a special snowflake
    3) the guy who doesn't know everything, and makes a couple of mistakes, and the entire raid rages at him until he leaves, and then wait in a queue for half an hour, complaining about the wait time.
    I'd like to add:

    4. Tank who doesn't know what he/she's doing, but actually says this and asks for advice and tactics. Usually does excellently after a short explanation, and so does the rest of the raid.

    Actually seen quite a few of these lately. It's nice!
    "Like it's MY fault some BIG dragon knocked me into a cave full of LITTLE dragons!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperweight View Post
    The community didn't go down the shitter because of the LFG system, the LFG system just introduced you to the shitty community in a horribly effective way.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    LFR is piss easy. However, we do not have auras on our characters that dps for us, so we do need to actually be there pushing buttons. If you look at the mechanics that are removed, the requirements numberwise, and then ofc the fact that the more you fail the stronger you get, you see that LFR is a guaranteed clear if you stay in the group.

    Dark Animus is the best example of this. DA heroic? Insane. DA Normal? lots of coordination and a minor gear check (very minor). DA LFR? Literally AoE and win. The wake didnt hurt enough to kill unless you stood in 2. The mobs had no real abilities. Matter swap was automatic. LFR is piss easy. Again it happened on Thok, because of course personal accountability is too hardcore for those with time constraints, and the inability to read the dungeon journal. People of all playstyles have done LFR at some point. Anybody who has done a higher difficulty in TBC, Wrath 25M, Cata or Mists can tell you that LFR really has no challenge whatsoever other than that of vanilla raids, herding cats and getting them to stay focused for a total of 5 minutes.
    As I said - LFR is only easy when compared to higher difficulties.

    The majority of folks running through the LFR system have never set foot in a heroic and may not ever have even been in a normal - not even once. This is the difficult part that many of the more hardcore players seem to have trouble grasping.

    Pre-LFR, almost no-one raided if you examined the complete WoW playerbase. Without LFR, Blizzard would seriously have to reduce the amount of raid content they were able to generate and spend the dollars elsewhere. So - if you want to keep having a game that is raid, raid, raid - then you should be begging Blizzard to keep making LFR extremely easy compared to the other difficulties.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I agree that it is deflecting it, but the community is part of the problem. The LFR players bitch and moan about literally everything. They get bosses to have massive health nerfs, raid wide damage nerfs, determination even existing. They made it so 2/3 roles can do next to nothing and get carried by the few players working hard.

    Blizzard bent to them because Blizzard will please the minority. Now they are demanding blizzard somehow fixes it by offering tanks special rewards and stuff. Tanks will que for LFR as dps and get their tank gear because LFR players have pushed Blizzard to make dpsing LFR that simplistic
    Actually, I look at it from a different perspective.

    Blizzard (and other devs) keep listening to a tiny percentage of the playerbase and keep making content that requires a tank role that is largely arbitrarily created. Here's the problem:

    25man raiding is/should be 5 logical and functioning groups. This would ideally mean 5 tanks, 5 healers and 15 DPS.

    It is extremely difficult to make several bosses require 2 to 3 tanks, let alone 5 - so devs have given up and settled for 2. This ends up creating a psychological issue for would-be tanks - why spend weeks of raid lockouts/Valor points building a set of tanking gear to get benched. Instead, build a DPS set and be able to compete for a DPS slot.

    This reduces the would-be 20% of players that would raid as tanks down to 8%. Is there any wonder there is a long queue while that 8% of would-be tanks attempt to fill all the raids needing tanks?

    The real fix would be to design content that no longer requires the tank role - since it is highly unpopular for several reasons; however, it seems that several people are fixated on that one hero of a player that must be a pixelated Superman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    I know, and I said the VTK system is broken as well. But really, go do a Naz LFR that the group wipes to enrage. Link meters, point out people below...60k? Thats generous tbh. Say kick these people. Watch the insults flow, possibly angry whispers or the group just does nothing and pulls again, possibly somebody says something about determination saving them.
    The first question I'd ask is why are there enrage timers in LFR?

  15. #455
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raeln View Post

    The first question I'd ask is why are there enrage timers in LFR?
    So you don't get a tank plus a few healers dragging a fight on for an hour and refusing to wipe.

  16. #456
    I gave up on tanking.

    1. You have to know the fights exactly without ever doing them before (videos only go so far)
    2. You have to have the gear without actually having the gear from downing the bosses a bunch of time before
    3. You have to contend with DPS/healer that expect you to have #1 and #2

    I have tanked on various toons on/off since Vanilla, including MT and raid leading 40 mans all the way to some MoP LFR.

    It's just not worth the headache.

    I've spent far, far too many nights in raid smacking a boss in the crotch while the rest of the raid actually gets to see the fight and participate in the fun mechanics.
    Last edited by heerobya; 2013-11-19 at 06:55 PM.

  17. #457
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    Be nice to your tanks? No. Tanks aren't special snow flakes. I dislike most tanks.

    When _I_ tank, it's balls to the wall, get this dungeon done and achieving the goal(more exp/JP for your time).

    When I dps, other thanks are slow, boring and generally retarded. So of course I'm going to pull for you if your dps and heals are falling asleep. It's not our fault if you have poor skills. Just AOE and keep running, it's not hard.

    In regards to LFR, this can be a headache but that's only because the player base is retarded now because blizzard allows it. You don't have to know the mechanics of a fight going in anymore. Just bang your keys while you watch tv. That's annoying for tanks because they have to actually do something. Even it out so tanks can stand there and bash on keys while watching tv like everyone else. That is the only thing that is unfair.
    Last edited by Woa; 2013-11-19 at 06:51 PM.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    And it wasnt progression. The requirements for Naz were well within that of timeless geared players. However, that assumes they are just average skill level, which many in LFR are not. Yea, it could have been nerfed, but even still groups are wiping over and over and refuse to kick bad players instead they just get determination high enough to literally faceroll.
    What you consider "average skill level" may not be what the "average skill level" actually is for the playerbase as a whole.

    Many players in LFR find challenging content unfun, god knows why they do LFR for gear since they will never go higher but to each their own. However, their unwillingness to fix it themselves is why LFR keeps getting worse and worse. If people had came to the forums pleading Blizzard to fix the vote kick system because the group cannot remove bad players who are wiping the group, Blizzard would have done that. But no, they wanted Blizzard to make it easier, because many ARE bad players who would be kicked.
    They do LFR to make their character better - much for the same reason that heroic mode has to offer better gear as a bribe to get people to do it too. If it was all about challenge, then heroic mode raiding wouldn't need to award better gear, would it?

    Wouldn't it be sweeter to shout from the mountaintops, "Hey newbs, look what I did while wearing the same crap you got! - Yeah, worship me!"

    50k dps is NOT TOO MUCH. If Blizzard wants players to get better they wont nerf the heck out of every fight when it takes mechanics. Yes, you use LFR to learn, but there is a point where it is just you being deadweight and leeching off those trying. Honestly even in timeless gear, sub 70k is just you being bad in some way. Even with just a 476 weapon.
    50k dps is low but there is not exactly an in-game method of measuring what is low and what is not. I've seen several heroic geared players in my LFRs that drastically skew the DPS spread for a boss. LFR gear is not going to let someone do 180k dps - which is what a lot of people seem to think it will do. My shadowpriest is pretty much at LFR level (534ish) and I average about 100-110, depending on the fight.

    I'm constantly outdone by folks in there with heroic gear. I wouldn't mind if higher gear tiers were scaled down to LFR level to be honest. Why you coming into my content and trying to be Superman?

    One thing that Blizzard learned during the Failaclysm expansion was that if you make it hard and keep it hard - there is a breaking point where 2.3 million subscribers will just leave.

    Remember GC's tirading blog post? I do.

    So do you consider calling to kick the bad dps being a douche? What about screaming at the other tank when you have asked 15 times for a taunt with no response. How about people just dying to avoidable mechanics, and wanting them kicked?

    There is being insulting, then there is hurting somebodies feelings. Im sorry if you are offended when I say you are bad and your dps sucks, but if you are the moonkin just using moonfire on GCD then you are bad and your dps sucks. If I go and start cursing at all the players who dont have 540+ gear for being terribad shitters, and saying "kick the scrubs under 200k" then I am being a douche. However, where to draw the line?
    Perhaps some further testing is needed with Proving Grounds before people can queue in 6.0?

    There are also other things to consider - like all the spell effects on the ground. It's gotten to the point where sometimes it's difficult to tell the good from the bad, especially if the good is overlaid on the bad.

    It's also not always the DPS fault. Been in several LFRs now where healers aren't dispelling the bad stuff. DPS can't dispel their own crap. I've died at least once lately to a debuff that I had for a solid 2 minutes that was never dispelled.
    Last edited by Raeln; 2013-11-19 at 06:52 PM.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Saruya View Post
    What would you have them do? Bury their heads in the sand, and claim it's all puppy dogs and rainbows?

    Toxic environment is toxic. What they should do is put some sort of player rating system in place, and figure out how to prevent it from being gamed. The more toxic players get longer queues, whilst team players, and polite players get quicker queues ahead of the trolls.
    I'd prefer to queue the 'toxic' players together and make them suffer their own kind, rather than trying to artificially increase their queue times.
    "It is a demonstration of incomprehensible hubris to quote one's self, especially in one's own forum signature."
    ¬PetersenIII

  20. #460
    It's also really hard to jump back into tanking - if you level up getting tanking gear and run heroics for tanking gear and hop into expansion Tier 1 LFR in tanking gear, you're fine - but trying to "catch up" to the current tier with valor/justice or timeless isle etc. tanking gear is like impossible. You have to run the first couple of tiers multiple times and pray you get some good drops - and invest tons of $$ into gems/enchants.

    Where as any DPS or heals at 496 can hop into SoO and if you are a decent player, carry your weight.

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