Is Whirlwind at all used by Arms in PvE?

[CollisionTD]

Slam cleave range is too small. Too often that I'm in a pack of 10 mobs, and slam only hits 4 mobs because they're slightly spread around. If slam cleave range was buffed to 8 yards, I would take whirlwind off my bars. But 2 yards is too small.

Whirlwind does 85% weapon damage for 20 rage on each target.

Slam does 275% weapon damage to the main target, and (0.35 * 275%) = 96.25% damage to each additional target within 2 yards, for 25 rage.

Damage per rage:
Whirlwind: 85/20 = 4.25% weapon damage per rage
Slam: 275%/25 = 11% weapon damage per rage on a single target.

The rage efficiency of additional adds for slam cleave is:

96.25%/25 = 3.85% weapon damage per rage

Don't forget that sweeping strikes duplicates the main strike:

0.50 * 2.75 = 1.375
0.50 * 0.85 = 0.425

Final formula:

Slam: (412.5% + (Targets hit by the cleave * 96.25%)) / 25
WW: (42.5% + (Targets hit * 85%)) / 20

Here's a nice little excel spreadsheet showing rage efficiency and damage done per gcd:
http://gyazo.com/fb332466f1ab03756b356fcaf42c5469

The big deal for slam's superiority (And why Whirlwind should be removed from your bar) is the damage dealt/rage spent per GCD. If we're strictly looking at rage efficiency, whirlwind can be a better choice if it will hit 3+ more targets than Slam cleave would.

If mortal strike/colossus smash/thunder clap are used on cooldown, which they should be for the most part, they will consume 40%~ of available GCDs. This tier, thanks to 2pcT16, arms rage income is kind of ridiculous. It's around 12-13 rage per second.

The sweeping strikes glyph negates most of the rage cost of re-applying sweeping strikes itself, so that's going to be ignored for this.

A GCD is 1.5 seconds, which means 12.5*1.5=18.75 rage per gcd

Slam/Whirlwind are only going to be used **AT MOST** on 60% of GCDs, thunder clap is 10 rage and everything else is free/grants rage.

Rage spent per GCD * 0.6:
25 * 0.6 = 15 Rage
20 * 0.6 = 12 Rage
(Both are lower than the average rage income, leading to lost rage/wasted rage on Cleave/Heroic Strike)

Using whirlwind pushes 6 rage into the "Lost/Cleave/Heroic Strike" bucket. Slam only puts 3 rage in that same bucket, which means that when they are compared against each other, Whirlwind actually has a rage cost of 23.

If I plug in a 23 rage whirlwind into that same spreadsheet:

http://gyazo.com/c981101288000fc49512984bc97f1f69

The rage efficiency gains are no longer there when Whirlwind hits more targets. Whirlwind now needs to hit 4+ more targets than slam cleave to be worthwhile rage efficiency-wise.

All of this is not even including that most AoE is of the bursty-nature, and if rage is not a concern, then the damage done per global is the most important factor.

Which leads to my final point, and why there are 2 charts on the pictures above.

If ONLY looking at damage done per global, whirlwind needs to hit 5 more targets than Slam cleave to be worthwhile, and if colossus smash is up on the main target, this breakpoint is increased to 6+.
(There are some points where 3/4+ targets is the breakpoint, but the gains are trivial.)

As far as the range concerns this tier:

Heroic Immerseus: Adds are stacked up, and die before bladestorm is over.
Protectors: Most raids either stack them up so that slam cleave will hit all targets, or spread them out far enough that whirlwind isn't going to hit them.
Norushen: Single-target rotation with sweeping strikes up.
Sha of Pride: The aoe-adds (can't remember name) are always stacked up nicely for slam cleave, but also die before bladestorm is over.
Galakras: One tank has all adds, 90% of them will get hit by slam cleave.
General: 1/2 target fight.
Spoils: One tank has all adds, same as galakras. The only time that it may be iffy is when Mogu-side spawns the stun-dudes (I'm great at names), but slam cleave will hit them the first 2 globals that they are up as they spawn on the boss itself.
Siegecrafter: Depending on your strat, mines will spawn on top of the boss itself which will get hit by slam cleave, or they spawn far away and range dps kill them.
Paragons: Why are you padding.
Garrosh: Adds are ALWAYS stacked up on top of the boss. Slam cleave all day.

It would take incredibly specific positioning of adds for whirlwind to hit the breakpoints mentioned above that would mean one of three things:
1: You're fighting TOGC 25 Anub.
2: Your raid is running a completely stupid strat for the fight.
3: You are slamming the red dot:



TL;DR: Much like the ability Cleave, remove whirlwind from your bars as Arms.

I do agree that the radius needs to be increased another 2 yards, though.

[Master Guns]

Where the hell is your experience then bro?

No kidding. It's nearly laughable when someone says "You shouldn't say anything unless you have an experienced warrior or a warrior whose good enough to defend his claims" when he hasn't even cleared all of heroic content. I haven't even cleared it on normal, but guess what? I'm not the one telling people that you need skill to talk when I haven't even the skill the clear all content, since that is what my metric of what a good warrior is apparently.

[Darkfriend]

People still do that? :O



And this. Remember, if there's shitloads of adds, go Bloodbath + Bladestorm, get Sweeping Strikes up and just roflstorm those things. Instant-success.

Heroic leap inside CS is ~1-2% DPS increase. It's less of a gain than it was with T15 4p and the use of BB when playing SMF, but the EEoG trinket makes glyphed HL a ~20 second CD.

- - - Updated - - -

No kidding. It's nearly laughable when someone says "You shouldn't say anything unless you have an experienced warrior or a warrior whose good enough to defend his claims" when he hasn't even cleared all of heroic content. I haven't even cleared it on normal, but guess what? I'm not the one telling people that you need skill to talk when I haven't even the skill the clear all content, since that is what my metric of what a good warrior is apparently.

I'm not saying you can't make a correct statement if you aren't a heroic raider. I'm saying the vague metric of "in my experience" is generally bad for ANYONE to make, especially one who isn't progressed. I don't make "in my experience" claims about rotation changes from the norm without testing or math to defend them.

Not to mention the sole reason I raid w/ the guild I'm in now is IRL friends. I get poach attempts from top 3-50 guilds quite often. As well as several standing offers. To add that up with extensive warrior help given both in game and on these forums (35+ warriors helped in game, numerous in top 50 guilds, and at least 100+ on these forums) and a history of giving good advice, I'd assume my word is taken as fairly valid rather often.

Oh, and I never said you shouldn't say anything. I said it's not a good idea to do so, because it looks stupid to make unsubstantiated claims. It's the same reason I said to someone else in the past "Don't pull numbers out of your ass, ass numbers are useless."

In a world of RNG, selection bias, lack of perfection, etc, just because SOMEONE did better using something does NOT mean it's better. Perhaps it only appears to be better. Perhaps option A is 100% efficent, but requires better play so that option B at 90% efficiency but with far more tolerance for errors ends up being better.

Finally, saying "In my experience" for ANYTHING which already has an objective, proven answer is just silly! We already know what it is. Either you're agreeing with what is already known, in which case it doesn't mean anything, or you're disagreeing, in which case you are wrong. But "in my experience" answers to math style questions are just 100% useless, unless you can back up your experience as having some defense, such as testing, math, sims, extensive real world utility, etc. All of which we have, and you don't. That's my point. It isn't intended to make you mad. But it's the blunt truth. I'd expect people to take Collisions word over mine, he's a better Sim craft guy by far. And I'd expect people to take my word over yours. It's just logical to do so.

[ChristopherHansen]

Dark makes a valid point, though he doesn't always make it as well as he should.
In softer terms, what he tries to say is that "in my experience" is an extremely vague and undefinable metric in a world of RNG. Sure, you may have used Whirlwind over Slam cleave a few times it felt better. That doesn't mean that was the reason for your higher numbers. If I abstain from using Heroic Leap inside CS, I may see higher DPS than if I had used it inside CS purely because of RNG on other factors.

Math doesn't lie (most of the time!), some people may feel that an alternate way is better, or suits them, that doesn't mean that it is actually better. But just think, when 3 guides say not to use Whirlwind, and none of the top Arms Warriors (man I feel weird just saying that) use Whirlwind. I think you already have your answer.

I agree with what he said I just don't like him acting like he is a god when he cant even kill lol spoils of pandaria and has some lol 10man parses.

[Darkfriend]

I agree with what he said I just don't like him acting like he is a god when he cant even kill lol spoils of pandaria and has some lol 10man parses.

My guilds skill =/= my skill. Same for parses, gota do the best w/ what you got. My logic is sound. And that is what matters. Individual people who dislike it don't really matter to me. I've done far more for warriors than all of them combined.

[Deleted]

My guilds skill =/= my skill. Same for parses, gota do the best w/ what you got. My logic is sound. And that is what matters. Individual people who dislike it don't really matter to me. I've done far more for warriors than all of them combined.

Actually you're acting like you are the better player (by far) and you're giving out pieces of advice/information in a condescending way. That matters too. Its not about how many people you help or how much you help them infact - its mostly in which way you gonna help them, because that's actually the key if they accept your advice or if they dont. And that is what really matters if someones seeking advice. Peroid.


ps.: Skill isn't measured by Progress or experience or gearscore or any other parameter on it's own. You got better gear than me by far, still we both got 9/14hc. SO please tell me how much do you out'skill' the other raidmembers!

Still wow is all about numbers and numbers do not lie.

[Archimtiros]

This really didn't need to be revisited, Dark is an ass, he knows it, you know it, and I tease him endlessly for it.
Dark also plays in a very casual guild, that doesn't make him any less knowledgable or skilled.

Many other prominent warriors posted agreeing with him, and math was provided to back up his claims. The topic is done and doesn't need to devolve into a dick measuring contest or piss or eachother because you don't like the way they talk thread.

[Master Guns]

My guilds skill =/= my skill. Same for parses, gota do the best w/ what you got. My logic is sound. And that is what matters. Individual people who dislike it don't really matter to me. I've done far more for warriors than all of them combined.

You are a complete hypocrite. You just called me a bad Warrior based on the fact that I don't have heroic kills or heroic kill, yet here you say "My guilds skill =/= my skill." Uh, herp? That's completely hypocritical.

You are extremely condescending, and you aren't cut above the rest of the Warrior community. You're just another person who plays a video game that happens to be decent at it, and you know how to type on forums. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Can't wait for your extremely condescending reply.

[Deleted]

You are a complete hypocrite. You just called me a bad Warrior based on the fact that I don't have heroic kills or heroic kill, yet here you say "My guilds skill =/= my skill." Uh, herp? That's completely hypocritical.

You are extremely condescending, and you aren't cut above the rest of the Warrior community. You're just another person who plays a video game that happens to be decent at it, and you know how to type on forums. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

Can't wait for your extremely condescending reply.

I'm not sure if you're actualy reading or just going super saiyan at this point.

[Deleted]

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but I use it a lot.

I mean, once I see 5+ enemies, I just Heroic Leap -> Thunder Clap -> CDs + Bladestorm -> Thunder Clap -> WW spam :/

I'm on the top 3 dps aoe most of the time (Arms PvE)

[pkm]

From my limited experience, i have found that standing on the tank that is holding aggro and using slams cleave works excellent. But not sure how it works out if they aren't packed together on one tank. I still have WW on my bars though, 2 yards is pretty shit.

[Archimtiros]

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but I use it a lot.

I mean, once I see 5+ enemies, I just Heroic Leap -> Thunder Clap -> CDs + Bladestorm -> Thunder Clap -> WW spam :/

I'm on the top 3 dps aoe most of the time (Arms PvE)

As listed in the math above, and in the many guides written by moderately skilled players *cough*; Cleave is a better use of your rage and more damage than Whirlwind and CS should not be delayed unless absolutely necessary (high on rage, very short window for cleave when one GCD matters and you can't bladestorm for some reason).

[Master Guns]

Interesting. Darkfriend made a post a couple of hours ago but since deleted it. In this post (which I read at work, and chuckled at) he criticized my Warrior, saying I was gemmed, talented, and reforged incorrectly, and this invalidated anything I could possibly say about Warriors. How humorous.

http://imageshack.com/a/img837/9636/kt2r.jpg

Mr.Robot definitely isn't an end all, be all, but, as you can see from my sig, I am definitely not gemmed, reforged, -or- talented incorrectly. Another reason why you're an extremely rude hypocrite who has special snowflake syndrome.

Anyway, on topic, Bladestorm+Sweeping Strikes+Bloodbath does infinitely more DPS than WW spamming. It's definitely the way to go. After BS is on CD, however, I do Slam/Cleave.

Oh, shit. Sorry guys. I didn't add any trigonometry in my post. I guess it's not worth anything. =/

[Archimtiros]

Oh, shit. Sorry guys. I didn't add any trigonometry in my post. I guess it's not worth anything. =/

Now who's being condescending? Seriously, stop with the pissing contest. Dark was chastised publicly and privately which is likely why he would delete a post. However terrible his people skills are, he was right all along. The question was asked and answered along with supporting documentation.

Give it up and stop this pointless pissing contest.

[Master Guns]

I'm sorry. I forgot the part where being a complete and total douchebag was ok no matter what if you were right in what you say.

Oh, wait, it's not ok, no matter how right you are. Welcome to planet Earth. That shit only works if you're a robot. I am sick and tired of people defending that asshat "JUST BECAUSE HE'S RIGHT LOLMATH", GIVING him entitlement. You people are half the problem.

[Grishnaar]

I use Whirlwind all the time!!.......when I'm clearing old instances for transmog gear

[Heladys]

stuff

Best post of the millennium. Thank you for mathing up what I already thought I knew.

[roflwaffle]

Interesting. Darkfriend made a post a couple of hours ago but since deleted it.

Sure he did.

I'm sorry. I forgot the part where being a complete and total douchebag was ok no matter what if you were right in what you say.

Oh, wait, it's not ok, no matter how right you are. Welcome to planet Earth. That shit only works if you're a robot. I am sick and tired of people defending that asshat "JUST BECAUSE HE'S RIGHT LOLMATH", GIVING him entitlement. You people are half the problem.

He never even said anything at all that could be considered "complete and total douchebag" all he said was
using "this is what ive seen" isn't really helpful cause rng is rng

[bigbad]

So darkfiend got someone so worked up he got banned? He must be so proud that he's that rude....

[Deleted]

How did this end up comparing ww to bladestorm?
If you want to compare something its slam vs ww and slam cleave just do CRAZY dmg.
Take the galakras heroic fight etc.
Slam cleaving is amazing on that fight, and thats almost pure add fight.