Sin vs Sub, am i doing something wrong?

[mat cauthon]

I got bored one day and was toying around with a sub spec, throwing it into SC when I noticed that by the ShC sim my numbers for sub should be considerably higher then my numbers as sin (25k or so increase when i checked in my current gear). So I went and spent a couple weeks practicing with sub, to the point where I was able to pull bout 200k on a dummy unbuffed (a feat i cant manage as sin) so I decided to give it a go lastnight in our siege run... lets just say it did not end as well as i had hoped.

Two things to take into account when looking at these logs, i have been playing sin for years now even in ds when it was considered trash i still excelled with it, I am by no means the best at it but its safe to say im up there and sub i have only two weeks practice with which alone may be the issue. Secondly im also the raid leader, a miserable thing to be when melee lol so while attempting not to fail at sub i also have to be calling things out, watching timers, and trying to keep an eye on the raid while attempting to do a more complex rotation with sub. That being said im sure I made mistakes, and id love some advice from those who know it far better then I.

Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%A1t/advanced

Logs for sub: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bp...?s=5148&e=5477

Logs for sin: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bp...?s=8964&e=9357

I used sha of pride and iron jug as the examples because they both require minimal movement on my part, and minimal focus on the raid so they are the two best that i can focus in on my dps, as you can tell the difference in numbers is significant. Its worth noting that in both cases im reforged as SC said to for sub, since all priorities seem viable for sin with the 2 set.

Thanks for the help folks,
Mát
GM of The Band of the Red Hand

[Deleted]

Hey mate

I rarely post on this forum, but since I've been in the same boat as you I thought I would pitch in ^^

Just glancing at your logs I noticed your Find Weakness uptime is very low on Sha (other debuffs pretty good tho 80-90%+ uptime).

To compare here's the log of my latest Sha of Pride kill (It's 25m though)
worldoflogs.com/reports/u1coksu798dy145p/sum/damageDone/?s=2692&e=2978
sorry can't post link directly yet...
(If you click around you can also see my IJ kill aswell )

As you can see my Find Weakness uptime is roughly twice as high as yours, and this is just one of the things that really is noticeable on the damage meters. I've been playing sub for a few months now I believe because Sin really started to bore me and the reforges for sub makes combat fairly decent aswell, so I'm currently trying that out as my OS.

I think there is quite a lot of other sub vs. other specs threads on the forum currently where I'm sure you can find further guidance

Best regards
Chris

[Feali]

Use Vanish for better FW uptime.
Also you don't have glyphs for your Sub specc.

[mat cauthon]

taking a quick look (raid startin in a few minutes lol) i noticed i had an extra shadow dance on you in the fight (didnt check but assuming yall just downed it faster) but i didnt seem to get off near as many ambushes (you had 36 where i had only 27)... trying to figure out what im doing wrong there, im attempting to get in as many as i can during shadowdance with getting one off near the end for the additional find weakness time, although im struggling with that (need a new weak aura for it lol). by the number of 'stealths' under buffs gained is it safe to assume that youre using vanish (and prep) as a offensive cd to maintain some find weakness uptime between shadowdances?

P.S. Wheel of time fan? or just a coincidence with the name? just seems to fit considering it means blade

@nalira: ya the glyphs could be an issue lol what are the ideal sub glyphs right now?

[Feali]

Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins (I consider it a must-have)
Glyph of Redirect (Target-swapping must-have)
Glyph of Vanish (Not sure if it's still "bugged" with Subterfuge)

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Glyph of Feint / Glyph of Sprint if Vanish Glyph is fixed.

[Sesshou]

First of all, shadowcraft is not a sim. Seriously... why do people keep saying that...

Second, SC is not a good way to compare across specs. Its great for comparing options within a single spec though.

Third, did you seriously just compare Sha where you got gift of the titans to Iron Jug to attempt to compare 2 specs? Thats like comparing combat vs sub by using Galakras for combat and malkorok for sub.

Glyph of vanish does work with subterfuge and you should take it. Redirect glyph is crap. If you're having to swap that often, its probably because its a fight with a lot of adds (maybe Galakras?) and if so you're in the wrong spec anyway.

If you aren't vanishing as a dps cooldown as sub, holy shit are you doing it wrong. You only got one SB on Sha on a 5:30 fight, so you're doing that way, way wrong. You should also stack SB with FW and be burning your first SB with prepot and opening trinkets.

You had lust at the end of Sha and managed to get it timed up with only part of 1 FW and 1 rppm proc. You had lust on the pull for Iron Jug and timed it with prepot, both cooldowns, both trinkets. Speaking of... you didn't potion at all on sha. Its like you didn't even attempt to get a decent sample to compare with.

[Kael]

re-commenting after this, but as an important aside, don't use the acronym SC. Many rogues use SimulationCraft. Most rogues use ShadowCraft. SimC/ShC are much more helpful abbreviations.

(I suspect you mean Shadowcraft since you say you're reforged "as SC said to" - see Sesshou's post above)

Edit: uptimes could be a decent ways better (rupture, hemo, vanish-FW), and you really really need to use/line up your abilities, as Sessh and Mand both point out above). Glyphs are a must (again, already mentioned). Not much else to bring up unless that doesn't help you. If you're leading and distracted, even knowing what to do, assassination may be a better pick because you can nearly AFK-on-demand for a couple of seconds with much less consequence.

[mat cauthon]

First of all, shadowcraft is not a sim. Seriously... why do people keep saying that...

Second, SC is not a good way to compare across specs. Its great for comparing options within a single spec though.

Third, did you seriously just compare Sha where you got gift of the titans to Iron Jug to attempt to compare 2 specs? Thats like comparing combat vs sub by using Galakras for combat and malkorok for sub.

Glyph of vanish does work with subterfuge and you should take it. Redirect glyph is crap. If you're having to swap that often, its probably because its a fight with a lot of adds (maybe Galakras?) and if so you're in the wrong spec anyway.

If you aren't vanishing as a dps cooldown as sub, holy shit are you doing it wrong. You only got one SB on Sha on a 5:30 fight, so you're doing that way, way wrong. You should also stack SB with FW and be burning your first SB with prepot and opening trinkets.

You had lust at the end of Sha and managed to get it timed up with only part of 1 FW and 1 rppm proc. You had lust on the pull for Iron Jug and timed it with prepot, both cooldowns, both trinkets. Speaking of... you didn't potion at all on sha. Its like you didn't even attempt to get a decent sample to compare with.

shadowcraft shows a sim dps, whereas its not like simc it tends to give you a very similar patchwerk style fight number for the same variables, or so it did bout 6 months ago when i checked it out of curiosity. ideal for all situations, of course not, but its useful in its own right.

yes, yes i seriously did, did you seriously comp an attitude with someone asking after help because they didnt do things the way you would?

good to know ill switch the glyph out next time i swing by an ah

considering vanish has been my primary life saver over the last few years i typically avoid it out of instinct, it wasnt something that came to mind as a dps cd hence part of my comment on post #4 about mandrabs stealth gains during combat. did i mention im fairly new to sub in general and have to mix attempting to do it right with call outs and timer watching and such? an adjustment in your tone would be nice. As far as SB and FW i was told from the get go to avoid stacking them because the buff from SB also causes you to negate armor so stacking them was a dps loss overall, hence the shoddy SB use trying to line it up in time since with the assurance trinket SD cd is fairly short so i was having a hard time finding that sweet spot to pop SB, however if stacking them isnt an issue ill go back to poping it off the pull and on CD as is normal for me.

o.O i didnt pot on sha?... i pre potted and was pretty sure i hit it the 2nd time unless i misjudged the pre pot and burnt it early... musta been on cd when hero was poped i remember tryin to hit it then as usual for fights where we dont hero on the pull

@ kael ya i meant shadowcraft, sorry last time i was on here i kept seeing shadowcraft referred to as SC and simulation craft referred to as SimC so i just went with that figuring they were the standard abbreviations, ill adjust the OP accordingly

[Sesshou]

shadowcraft shows a sim dps, whereas its not like simc it tends to give you a very similar patchwerk style fight number for the same variables, or so it did bout 6 months ago when i checked it out of curiosity. ideal for all situations, of course not, but its useful in its own right.

You clearly have no clue at all what a sim is. Shadowcraft doesn't sim a damn thing.

yes, yes i seriously did, did you seriously comp an attitude with someone asking after help because they didnt do things the way you would?

Its more how laughable it is that you think you should somehow be able to use those 2 fights to form some sort of conclusion.

considering vanish has been my primary life saver over the last few years i typically avoid it out of instinct, it wasnt something that came to mind as a dps cd hence part of my comment on post #4 about mandrabs stealth gains during combat. did i mention im fairly new to sub in general and have to mix attempting to do it right with call outs and timer watching and such? an adjustment in your tone would be nice.

In what PvP? It has been a dps cooldown for every spec this entire expansion in pve. It was a dps cooldown for 2/3 specs all of last expansion in pve. There are a very, very few mechanics where vanish can save you aside from you being cheap on repairs and wanting to save it to avoid a death when you wipe.

As far as SB and FW i was told from the get go to avoid stacking them because the buff from SB also causes you to negate armor so stacking them was a dps loss overall, hence the shoddy SB use trying to line it up in time since with the assurance trinket SD cd is fairly short so i was having a hard time finding that sweet spot to pop SB, however if stacking them isnt an issue ill go back to poping it off the pull and on CD as is normal for me.

SB doesn't give armor pen to specials which is why its worth stacking. Regardless, sounds like reaching to me. You had SB off CD for ~1.5 minutes (assuming no AoC) including a large gap in FW during heroism you had towards the end. So you had a ludicrous amount of time in there where you could have hit it and not stacked it with FW. And even if you thought SB worked on specials (and I'm not sure if you did or not), if SB worked on specials, SB would be stronger than FW in every way so you'd still end up pressing it again even if you thought it would waste a FW just to avoid having it off cd as the boss died.

o.O i didnt pot on sha?... i pre potted and was pretty sure i hit it the 2nd time unless i misjudged the pre pot and burnt it early... musta been on cd when hero was poped i remember tryin to hit it then as usual for fights where we dont hero on the pull

Its not possible you hit your potion after the pull and accidentally blew your prepot. That would show up as a buff gained during the fight. I'm not sure how WoL handles buffs you have going into but don't actually gain, so maybe you did prepot. Either way though, theres no chance it was on cd at the end during lust.

[mat cauthon]

You clearly have no clue at all what a sim is. Shadowcraft doesn't sim a damn thing.

i doubt they are pulling their numbers out of the back end of a donkey, and their numbers have lined up with the numbers from SimC when ive checked so it suits my needs but its a moot point you really shouldnt have bothered bringing up in your first post.

Its more how laughable it is that you think you should somehow be able to use those 2 fights to form some sort of conclusion.

im working with what i have available, out of the first 6 encounters in SoO please tell me which two you would find that are more comparable then those two.

In what PvP? It has been a dps cooldown for every spec this entire expansion in pve. It was a dps cooldown for 2/3 specs all of last expansion in pve. There are a very, very few mechanics where vanish can save you aside from you being cheap on repairs and wanting to save it to avoid a death when you wipe.

the more you write the more entertaining im finding this, any fight that involves adds, or in some cases even pulls, as sin i tend to get aggro for a couple seconds if i dont hold back, and being the guy hovering over timers im usually the first to know and switch so having vanish has saved me more times then i can count and saved more then one wipe for us. is it ideal? of course not but the issue with shadow focus taking a moment for the game to regonize youre stealthed and apply the buff made it a bare minimal dps gain, subterfuge had no real application for sin, and the 15% bonus to a single mutilate from nightstalker pre 5.4 was again minimal at best. i think i lost a whopping 1-1.5k dps over the course of a long fight not using vanish as a offensive cd which i did try once the tanks got better at snatching aggro before me, wasnt worth the effort for such a minimal gain.

and before you mention cheat death, in almost every fight out there with some kind of aoe damage elusiveness > everything that tier lol

SB doesn't give armor pen to specials which is why its worth stacking. ...

ok so stacking SB with FW youre gaining more dps from the extra finishers from the cp gain which is worth losing the white damage penetrating armor, makes sense although not what i was told initially before i tried it and why i thought differently, ill go back to poping it on CD then, thanks this one line in youre entire post is the only useful on topic thing youve said, and despite the rest it is appreciated.

...Regardless, sounds like reaching to me. You had SB off CD for ~1.5 minutes (assuming no AoC) including a large gap in FW during heroism you had towards the end. So you had a ludicrous amount of time in there where you could have hit it and not stacked it with FW. And even if you thought SB worked on specials (and I'm not sure if you did or not), if SB worked on specials, SB would be stronger than FW in every way so you'd still end up pressing it again even if you thought it would waste a FW just to avoid having it off cd as the boss died.

you havnt raid lead before have you? at least not a team that wasnt hard core im assuming. lets sit back for a moment and put yourself in my shoes, youre in a fight using a spec that you havnt used in years since it required keeping recuperate up for energy gains, youve had little practical practice with it, and youre in a fight which requires stacking but you being sub must be away from said stack point just enough to be behind the boss instead of on the side. to top it off youre also leading this group of raiders with a few new guys who need extra watching just to ensure no issues.

So youre sitting there, making common mistakes when you start a new spec, dot/buff clipping, dots/buffs falling off for a few seconds here and there, attempting to monitor a fairly new style of debuff, adjusting to a new cd with a very short (40 or so seconds) cd that you need to use as often as possible, trying to weave in another long cd that youve been misinformed about proper usage, having to duck and weave every other time gift of the titans goes out because the one time youre not stacked tightly the fight wants you to have it, calling out the general mechanics for the new guys (move for self reflect, prisons, add in the back, cds for swelling)... i could go on... needless to say that weaving SB the way that i was first told to which as youve said is the wrong way as i know now, got lost in the chaos of leading and learning at the same time.

Its not possible you hit your potion after the pull and accidentally blew your prepot. That would show up as a buff gained during the fight. I'm not sure how WoL handles buffs you have going into but don't actually gain, so maybe you did prepot. Either way though, theres no chance it was on cd at the end during lust.

not sure why its not showing, its kinda simple, hero goes out, big letters flash on my screen telling me, i hit my pot button... ive been doing it so long its automatic... idk why its not showing on logs but either it was on cd from a botched pre pot or something went wrong and its not showing or the bind didnt work for the first time in over a thousand uses *shrug* either way its not a matter of i wasnt trying, something went wrong somewhere along the way

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Edit.

Id like to point out to avoid scaring anyone else whos helpful off, youre entire attitude coming into this was, whether or not intentionally, set to put someone on the defensive and/or spark an argument. If you want to be helpful then do so, starting off posting insults when someone has already stated they are new to a spec isnt exactly constructive criticism and will cause most folks to either fight or flee so to speak. instead of starting your first on topic paragraph with "did you seriously" and my favorite later on "holy shit are you doing it wrong" you had said something like 'youre making a lot of mistakes, heres whats wrong, heres what you should be doing' you would have wound up with a far more appreciative instead of argumentative reply. just something to think about, its just basic life and social skills, nothing important right? lol

[Pathal]

i doubt they are pulling their numbers out of the back end of a donkey, and their numbers have lined up with the numbers from SimC when ive checked so it suits my needs but its a moot point you really shouldnt have bothered bringing up in your first post.

https://code.google.com/p/simulation...onVsSimulation

Shadowcraft as most people know it is a formulation module in a theorycrafting engine.

Referring to a formulaic approach to theorycrafting as a simulation gets on some folks nerves. It's really not a big deal though.

[Kael]

Cool it. Now.

Attitude aside, Sessh provides a pretty full analysis/explanation, except for not explaining that ShC is a model/spreadsheet. There's an explanation of the differences on FieryDemise's blog iirc. Check some recent threads about shadowcraft/AMR and you'll find a link to the explanation. Pre-fight-potion tracking if you don't use a second is variable depending on when you potion/when the fight "starts" in WoLogs, but it always picks it up if you potion a second time.

Edit: oh god wall of text to read that I can't get to right now. Just keep it cool.

- - - Updated - - -

SB also causes your auto-attacks to go on the "specials" table and not miss, granting more poison hits (as I recall. My memory is rusty this late) and autos under your other cooldowns/trinkets that you'd otherwise miss or see glancing.

On Shadowcraft's numbers - the people that update it and use it frequently will tell you it's not good for cross-spec comparisons; the modeling is intended to show relative DPS gains for changing and optimizing gear, but they have somewhat variable semblance of reality in actual appearing #s, and the specs are modeled in the engine differently, meaning that you're not really looking at the same dummy encounter for every spec.

Threat - tricks of the trade on the tank at the start should take care of you. If it doesn't, er, start trying to recruit a new tank? That said, if it's a more casual setup and you don't have options... that uh, that sucks. You'll still be doing yourself (and raid) a disservice by not maximizing your damage through the opening, but if you can't... you can't. Although if you're asking for an analysis, try to mention that earlier, as the opener is one of the easiest parts to scrutinize and offer advice on.

Elusiveness - great for any encounter with serious AoE that you can survive that won't be massively overhealed by AoE healing. That comprises fewer encounters than you might expect, though >.> spread Iron Juggernaut, Immerseus, Fallen Protectors, Malkorok (soaking puddle/anything going wrong), and maybe Thok specifically on 10 come to mind... yet if you're not expecting to die, but could to immense/unexpected burst, I've been using/recommending Cheat Death more often these days (especially on 25s).

[mat cauthon]

https://code.google.com/p/simulation...onVsSimulation

Shadowcraft as most people know it is a formulation module in a theorycrafting engine.

Referring to a formulaic approach to theorycrafting as a simulation gets on some folks nerves. It's really not a big deal though.

huh interesting eh either way as you said not a big deal and not even relevant to this thread lol

SB also causes your auto-attacks to go on the "specials" table and not miss, granting more poison hits (as I recall. My memory is rusty this late) and autos under your other cooldowns/trinkets that you'd otherwise miss or see glancing.

interesting i was unaware of that, good to know and makes sense looking at the burst to poison damage i normally get as sin during SB, i had wondered why.

On Shadowcraft's numbers - the people that update it and use it frequently will tell you it's not good for cross-spec comparisons; the modeling is intended to show relative DPS gains for changing and optimizing gear, but they have somewhat variable semblance of reality in actual appearing #s, and the specs are modeled in the engine differently, meaning that you're not really looking at the same dummy encounter for every spec.

that is interesting, although as i said prior i was able to pull decent unbuffed numbers on a dummy but in a raid situation my numbers actually went down instead of up, really im wanting to see what im doing wrong so i can learn to do it correctly and then compare my numbers on encounters to determine which would be better where since it goes without saying one spec does not fit all fights.

Threat - tricks of the trade on the tank at the start should take care of you. If it doesn't, er, start trying to recruit a new tank? That said, if it's a more casual setup and you don't have options... that uh, that sucks. You'll still be doing yourself (and raid) a disservice by not maximizing your damage through the opening, but if you can't... you can't. Although if you're asking for an analysis, try to mention that earlier, as the opener is one of the easiest parts to scrutinize and offer advice on.

i mentioned this already, ill just quote myself cause i dont care to retype it again

the issue with shadow focus taking a moment for the game to regonize youre stealthed and apply the buff made it a bare minimal dps gain, subterfuge had no real application for sin, and the 15% bonus to a single mutilate from nightstalker pre 5.4 was again minimal at best. i think i lost a whopping 1-1.5k dps over the course of a long fight not using vanish as a offensive cd which i did try once the tanks got better at snatching aggro before me, wasnt worth the effort for such a minimal gain.

as mentioned here it was such a small gain for the effort, and in truth a loss at some points as sin because of missed auto attacks and poison damage at higher haste levels with SF that i got out of the habbit of using it, of course as sub it is a must because of subterfuge, the threat issue has been resolved tanks just had to learn to be quick on their feet.

Elusiveness - great for any encounter with serious AoE that you can survive that won't be massively overhealed by AoE healing. That comprises fewer encounters than you might expect, though >.> spread Iron Juggernaut, Immerseus, Fallen Protectors, Malkorok (soaking puddle/anything going wrong), and maybe Thok specifically on 10 come to mind... yet if you're not expecting to die, but could to immense/unexpected burst, I've been using/recommending Cheat Death more often these days (especially on 25s).

because we focus on 2 healing as many encounters as possible ive found as a whole having one person that takes considerably less damage over the course of the encounter takes a bit of pressure off the healers, usually the overhealing done on me isnt much because my healers have learned that they really dont need to heal me much, im quick about getting out of things, and if i know somethings going to hit me or cause me to take damage i get feint up, the mouse button its bound t is liable to wear out soon lol. is it ideal for dps, not at all because of the energy cost, but im already top dps by a wide margin and in a good number of encounters its as important if not more so to remain alive then pull an extra few k, after all dps while dead is always 0 once the poisons fall off.

keep in mind im also the benchmark my raiders try to beat in both dps and damage taken, im always the top of the dps chart even on fights like galakras where i shouldnt be, and bottom of the damage taken chart mainly because of awareness and elusiveness... my guys and gals see that and try to beat me in both, it makes for smoother runs with a casual style group giving them something to strive for and having cheat death would wind up being rather counter productive to that end considering if it ever got used it would mean i took a whole heck of a lot of damage lol

by the way thank you for cleaning up that double post, i wasnt sure why it did that and was afraid if i tried to edit it again it would get longer...

[mongoose6]

Seems like a majority of your problems stem from inexperience with the specc. Fix the issue with not using vanish (this is BY FAR your main issue) and put more practice into it. Macro Shadowdance with Shadowblades to begin with to make things easier. Decouple them for better CD control afterwards (I still suggest using them together for most situations though). Make prep part of your rotation to get more vanish uptime. Pool energy prior to using vanish or shadowblades to maximize the amount of ambushes you can get off (assuming you won't CP cap).

It is a really fun spec to play, put some time into it, make sure you have a way to track your CD's and FW uptime, practice practice practice, and enjoy!

[mat cauthon]

Seems like a majority of your problems stem from inexperience with the specc. Fix the issue with not using vanish (this is BY FAR your main issue) and put more practice into it. Macro Shadowdance with Shadowblades to begin with to make things easier. Decouple them for better CD control afterwards (I still suggest using them together for most situations though). Make prep part of your rotation to get more vanish uptime. Pool energy prior to using vanish or shadowblades to maximize the amount of ambushes you can get off (assuming you won't CP cap).

It is a really fun spec to play, put some time into it, make sure you have a way to track your CD's and FW uptime, practice practice practice, and enjoy!

ya i need to set up some weak auras, i thought i had bases covered but apparently they are inadequate. with prep should i be using it as soon as my first vanish in order to get the most use out of it or is there a specific point i should make use of it? thanks

[mongoose6]

Most of the time, yes. It can be dependent upon fight mechanics though. If the length of the fight precludes two uses of prep and there are damage increasing buffs present, you will want to hold prep in order to maintain FW uptime and take full advantage of the buff (sha of pride). I also hold it for when I need extended burst (add from Rooks desperate measures)