Are they intending on revamping warlocks again..

[Baconeggcheese]

Okay, fair enough, there are more level 90 Warlocks than there were 85 ones. I'm just offering some context here; there's very good reason why people have picked up Warlocks this expansion and it is all the love. Take a look at the 'hard stuff' numbers; during Cataclysm the class was over-represented in PvP relative to it's global population and there's been a pretty big swing in the other direction since then. That suggests that while there's a net increase overall, there is a definite loss of players doing high level PvP so that overall increase isn't as high as it might have been. Some players left the class, more joined. That's all, it doesn't mean everyone was universally satisfied; they weren't and GC acknowledged that months ago.

Except the argument wasn't about universal satisfaction (which doesn't exist) it was about whether or not there was a net gain or loss of warlocks throughout MoP. And there was unquestionably a net gain in overall* numbers.

[Spektroman]

Okay, fair enough, there are more level 90 Warlocks than there were 85 ones. I'm just offering some context here; there's very good reason why people have picked up Warlocks this expansion and it is all the love. Take a look at the 'hard stuff' numbers; during Cataclysm the class was over-represented in PvP relative to it's global population and there's been a pretty big swing in the other direction since then. That suggests that while there's a net increase overall, there is a definite loss of players doing high level PvP so that overall increase isn't as high as it might have been. Some players left the class, more joined. That's all, it doesn't mean everyone was universally satisfied; they weren't and GC acknowledged that months ago.

The loss of people doing high level PvP is due to Warriors (which are extremely effective at countering Warlocks) being gods, and probably nothing to do with Warlock revamps. You claim there are fewer warlocks doing high level pvp however Affliction is in the top 10 most represented specs. You imply warlocks are nowhere to be seen and no better than previous expansions, and yet a warlock team claimed victory at Blizzcon. It just doesn't add up.

There's over 100 warlocks with 2200+ rating (versus 250+ Warriors, the absolute overlords of PvP right now). Those don't seem like bad numbers at all for a pure DPS class; Comparatively, there's 150 Mages, 86 Rogues (the lowest) and 130 Hunters.

You probably have fuzzy memories of season 11 where Rogues with legendary daggers + warlocks with Tarecgosa dominated the ladders. That had more to do with legendary weapons and OP trinkets (cunning + vial of skill) than with warlock mechanics.

[Nicola]

The loss of people doing high level PvP is due to Warriors (which are extremely effective at countering Warlocks) being gods, and probably nothing to do with Warlock revamps. You claim there are fewer warlocks doing high level pvp however Affliction is in the top 10 most represented specs. You imply warlocks are nowhere to be seen and no better than previous expansions, and yet a warlock team claimed victory at Blizzcon. It just doesn't add up.

The loss of PvP'ers is very small though, no more than a few thousand players at most. Also, a Warlock being in the winning team at Blizzcon means absolutely nothing, I see Warriors use that same argument on daily base to "prove" that they ain't overpowered. The participants qualified themselves during 5.3, Blizzcon was 5.4.

You probably have fuzzy memories of season 11 where Rogues with legendary daggers + warlocks with Tarecgosa dominated the ladders. That had more to do with legendary weapons and OP trinkets (cunning + vial of skill) than with warlock mechanics.

Dragonwrath actually had very little to do with how good Warlocks were during Cataclysm, the synergy between Resto Shamans and Affliction Warlocks was what made XLS the go-to comp. Aside from that, Rathrak was actually better than DTR during s11

[Jessicka]

The loss of people doing high level PvP is due to Warriors (which are extremely effective at countering Warlocks) being gods, and probably nothing to do with Warlock revamps. You claim there are fewer warlocks doing high level pvp however Affliction is in the top 10 most represented specs. You imply warlocks are nowhere to be seen and no better than previous expansions, and yet a warlock team claimed victory at Blizzcon. It just doesn't add up.

There's over 100 warlocks with 2200+ rating (versus 250+ Warriors, the absolute overlords of PvP right now). Those don't seem like bad numbers at all for a pure DPS class; Comparatively, there's 150 Mages, 86 Rogues (the lowest) and 130 Hunters.

You probably have fuzzy memories of season 11 where Rogues with legendary daggers + warlocks with Tarecgosa dominated the ladders. That had more to do with legendary weapons and OP trinkets (cunning + vial of skill) than with warlock mechanics.

I'm not suggesting anything other than the data Baconeggcheese linked says that there's been a reversal in the trend that Warlocks were over-represented in high level PvP in Cataclysm relative to their overall population, to a point now where they are relatively under-represented. That suggests people dropped the class for PvP in favour of something else (probably Shadow Priests which are now over-represented by a lot).

Except the argument wasn't about universal satisfaction (which doesn't exist) it was about whether or not there was a net gain or loss of warlocks throughout MoP. And there was unquestionably a net gain in overall* numbers.

I never argued that there was a net loss or gain, just that not everyone was happy with the changes and it wasn't right to try to invoke a majority on that basis because there's no real way of polling those facts. People did leave the class due to the changes, and GC has said as much in the past.

[Phoenexis]

The loss of people doing high level PvP is due to Warriors (which are extremely effective at countering Warlocks) being gods, and probably nothing to do with Warlock revamps. You claim there are fewer warlocks doing high level pvp however Affliction is in the top 10 most represented specs. You imply warlocks are nowhere to be seen and no better than previous expansions, and yet a warlock team claimed victory at Blizzcon. It just doesn't add up.

There's over 100 warlocks with 2200+ rating (versus 250+ Warriors, the absolute overlords of PvP right now). Those don't seem like bad numbers at all for a pure DPS class; Comparatively, there's 150 Mages, 86 Rogues (the lowest) and 130 Hunters.

You probably have fuzzy memories of season 11 where Rogues with legendary daggers + warlocks with Tarecgosa dominated the ladders. That had more to do with legendary weapons and OP trinkets (cunning + vial of skill) than with warlock mechanics.

Lol that's funny. It seems to me like you're making stuff up/not looking at the bigger picture.
First of all, you seem to have forgotten that affliction+rsham was an overpowered setup starting from S9 (anybody remember Soul Swap pre-nerf?). It had nothing to do with PvE gear since there are other classes that benefit way much more from DS heroic items than Aff locks do. The buff to Riptide is also what made aff/rsham synergy even more hilarious. The only thing S11 really brought was a more powerful RLS because of vial at the start of the season, rogue scaling and legendaries.
Affliction warlock mechanics though were the best in PvP from the start of Cataclysm.

Second, I doubt you've heard the disgruntlement of high-rated warlocks such as Conradical and Azael which both mentioned how they did not like the new resource system in PvP, even though it had a cool feel.
It's been said over and over again: The resource system is absolute garbage in PvP because you cannot bank embers/DF as you could in PvE and use them tactically with a lot of foresight. It leads the class to be much dumber than what it was in Cata seeing as it can't compensate for all the ability-stripping that's been done.
As a result, Demo and Destro just spam Fel Flames until they go oom then try to pull off a Swifty to win. Nothing more, nothing less. Affliction on the other hand just jumps in and spreads instant aids without any effort. And I thought multi-dotting in PvP for Aff was easy back in Cata, heh...


TL;DR: The changes might've brought a lot of positive feedback for the mainstream and PvE audiences, but it's done nothing but bastardize and dumb down the class in PvP

[Nicola]

I'm not suggesting anything other than the data Baconeggcheese linked says that there's been a reversal in the trend that Warlocks were over-represented in high level PvP in Cataclysm relative to their overall population, to a point now where they are relatively under-represented. That suggests people dropped the class for PvP in favour of something else (probably Shadow Priests which are now over-represented by a lot).

Just a quick note, that is 5.2/5.3 data you're looking at. Having PvP'ed quiet a bit it's pretty easy to see that those numbers are incorrect.
http://cynwise.files.wordpress.com/2...ed-pvp-5-4.png
I mean, just look at Warriors, we all know by now that high end arena is 20% Warriors and not 5%.

EDIT: Some actual and more correct numbers: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-3-0-1.html

[Deleted]

I never argued that there was a net loss or gain, just that not everyone was happy with the changes and it wasn't right to try to invoke a majority on that basis because there's no real way of polling those facts. People did leave the class due to the changes, and GC has said as much in the past.

just like not every1 was happy with the class pre-MoP which was why more and more ppl left the class, yes some ppl clearly left the class bcoz of the changes, but more came back to it over the course of this expansion, and as for GC, we all know that GC tends to blow smoke out of his ass, well blizz in general, when it comes to the warlock class.

[Teva]

Well so far they have said they are removing Dot snap shotting, So Affiliation will be super boring unless they redo affiliation again which I really hope they do cause affiliation with no refreshing dots sounds horrible, just keeping them up :/
The level 100 talents don't make a huge difference but Chaotic Resources looks like it could be good!

[Klingers]

I hate the emphasis they put on warlocks this expansion. The majority probably did like the re design. The people that didn't play locks previously. I think many people that have played locks didn't like what they did. Sorry, but mana users shouldn't also have resources. It's redundant. Blizz needs to give another class the warlock treatment in WoD.

I've been playing a warlock as my main since early 2005. I levelled to 60 by drain tanking.

All I can say is I've seen every up and down of the warlock class, and I freaking love the new warlock design. It's something new, it's a rotation I can get behind and I love the new resource systems. Wouldn't have it any other way.

[Jessicka]

just like not every1 was happy with the class pre-MoP which was why more and more ppl left the class, yes some ppl clearly left the class bcoz of the changes, but more came back to it over the course of this expansion, and as for GC, we all know that GC tends to blow smoke out of his ass, well blizz in general, when it comes to the warlock class.

I don't see what purpose there is in insulting Blizzard or suggesting they'd lie about the data they have in front of them. We simply don't know if the upsurge is new players or returning players, whether they're mains or alts. We'll see next expansion whether people stick with them. It's not like Warlocks are unique in having an increased playerbase this expansion.

[chezwickcheese]

I actually preferred Wotlk model for Warlocks. A lot of the changes during Cata and MoP were nice but were a bit much.

[rijn dael]

I just don't like Malefic Grasp at all, and it's arguably as bad in terms of gaming snapshotting as Demo ever was in Cataclysm. Thankfully they're fixing that, hopefully they can redesign a 100 talent or glyph or something to give us Shadow Bolt back rather than that awful channel.

+1 to this.
Loved the demo changes.
Didn't mind the destro changes, although I wish RoF could be glyphed to my current target - I hate clicking in the middle of a pack of people.
Affi, I don't like MG, and I don't like soul swap as it is now. I loved cata affi.

[Zoldor]

Lock is my first character and I love him very much. My main for Vanilla and BC, lost his spot because I became the heal leader for my guild with my wife for all of WOTLK and Cata. I raided on him as my alt all through those two expansions. This time around I've been DK tanking and playing my lock as the alt raid/LFR etc. Lock feels good for Demo and Destro this expansion more so than any other expansion. Demo I still feel is slightly awkward.

The biggest qualm for me is I feel Affliction isn't as awesome and for me its my favorite. I am not upset really though for the passed few expansions its been the main spec with some demo or destro hashed in over the passed few expansion. I hope they tweak Demo just a bit; its way better than Cata for sure. Affliction I think needs to be reworked. It feels very muddled and the ideas behind it unfocused. We are like an off breed shadow priest. I don't care for drains personally, I liked SB better as a filler with more DoTs. So I hope they look at Affliction but I don't mind the other specs this expansion. I miss Afflic the most, was the spec that made me fall in love with wow wayback when.

[Deleted]

While I hate mop locks with passion, I doubt they will revamp, especially into something I might like again (wotlk was awesome). They should just remove SB:SS and that would be enough for me to return to locks.

Never been a fan of destro, but I still preffered wotlk/cata one (yes, ISF was fun for me). Couldnt give a fuck about dps as long as I did my job fair, if the boss is dead its gg, getting screwed with borings mechanics in PvP is a game breaker for me. PvE was fun with dot juggling, the current affliction pve rotation is what drove me away from pve.

And the talk about instant curse application... fuck that, I like cursing. If anything I think proper cursing and a bigger roll of them should be an affliction flavor.

[Wildcherry]

I liked what they did with tier 4 talents, where you drained your own life to gain a beneficial effect. I think I would like it more if you also had to do the same for damaging abilities, then using a main filler spell (like a reworked drain life) to restore the damage you've taken. The you could maybe open yourself up to some high risk/high reward plays by boosting your damage at the cost of health. You could also apply say a "50+% reduced healing effect from other sources" debuff for X seconds to reduce the heal bomb abuse you could maybe do.

[Deleted]

I liked what they did with tier 4 talents, where you drained your own life to gain a beneficial effect. I think I would like it more if you also had to do the same for damaging abilities, then using a main filler spell (like a reworked drain life) to restore the damage you've taken. The you could maybe open yourself up to some high risk/high reward plays by boosting your damage at the cost of health. You could also apply say a "50+% reduced healing effect from other sources" debuff for X seconds to reduce the heal bomb abuse you could maybe do.

This would just piss off healers (hello forgetting/not wanting to turn off burning rush) .

[nightfalls]

This would just piss off healers (hello forgetting/not wanting to turn off burning rush) .

Exactly. For the most part "hurt yourself" abilities aren't very popular for a reason in this game.

[Phoenexis]

Exactly. For the most part "hurt yourself" abilities aren't very popular for a reason in this game.

They're not popular because Blizzard always makes them shit. What we get out of these abilities is no better, if not worse, than what others get. Add to that the fact that we have to face penalties, and you can pretty easily spot why they're shit.
If we don't get something better when we use them, then why put a health penalty? Blizzard logic?

[checking facts]

GC posted a tweet a couple of weeks ago saying no Warlock revamp for 6.0. It looks like the new 100 talents might impact our current rotations though.

Also, no need to invoke a majority you have no way of knowing is there, a lot of players actually left the class because 'too much change' coming into this expansion and while some came in, I think there was a general net loss overall which might have been greater had they not permitted the class to be overpowered and be too attractive to have in around thanks to good utility and survivability.

I'm not sure about that. GC keeps saying that he thinks many warlocks left because of the revamp, but the warlock forums are now full of people, and I now see many more warlocks in LFR while during dragonsoul it was rare for me to see another warlock in the group with me.

I don't know, I don't have the numbers, but it seems to me that the revamp made warlocks way more popular.

or maybe it was the FotE factor lol

anyway, I enjoyed the MoP revamp, and I think that many other people enjoyed it too, but I wouldn't use a "majority" to justify arguments because I just don't have enough tools to determine if that majority really exists.

but part of me thinks GCs "we lost some old warlocks because of the revamp" is just an excuse to avoid revamping rogues, hunters and mages to have different dps specs. they probably had a hell of a hard job doing the warlock revamp.

[Grizelda]

What we get out of these abilities is no better, if not worse, than what others get. Add to that the fact that we have to face penalties, and you can pretty easily spot why they're shit.

I generally agree with this, but more specifically how do you feel about something like Burning Rush? A perma speed boost with no cool down. I feel like this is a winner.

Life Tap was cool when other classes actually had down time from running out of mana.