Immerseus vs Garrosh Trinket

[Digger Dave]

Normal Immerseus > Normal Garrosh > Flexible Immerseus > Normal Dark Shaman > Flexible Garrosh > Flexible Dark Shaman.

You don't know what you're talking about. Flex Immerseus is better than every other trinket besides better versions of Immerseus. Even LFR Immerseus is only slightly below other Heroic Warforged trinkets.

[jimmyolsen]

Toxic totem and Bindings being BiS is a pure fact, no two ways about it. Frenzied Crystal is somewhat of a trivial trinket in the long run, it's weighed down more and more with gear even on fights where it would matter such as Galakras. With how much cleave is available in a raid comp adds don't long enough for it to keep it's worth.

Tickle recently posted on totem spot that regardless of haste or mastery build, crystal outperforms totem at 3 targets (outperforms garrosh at 2). As a result I think swapping to crystal is valuable on a few more fights: Protectors (if clumped) and Spoils should be self explanatory. A case could be made for Immerseus and Galakras depending on how your raid handles things and how you prioritize targets

[Skurkitty]

Tickle recently posted on totem spot that regardless of haste or mastery build, crystal outperforms totem at 3 targets (outperforms garrosh at 2). As a result I think swapping to crystal is valuable on a few more fights: Protectors (if clumped) and Spoils should be self explanatory. A case could be made for Immerseus and Galakras depending on how your raid handles things and how you prioritize targets

All depends how your guilds raid DPS is and how you handle fights in reality. For the most part with us adds are bursted so fast that crystal holds hardly any purpose. Between a warlock, warrior, hunter, brewmaster, and myself which are generally always in the raid comp the lifespan of adds is very short. Immerseus and Galakras adds don't live long enough for the trinket to even really make a dent. Protectors is a give or take, most guilds I know don't stack all three in and cleave like mad causing all of the abilities to activate at once. With Spoils there are so many ways to make a set pattern for that fight that it again, comes down to personal raid strat (For example we usually never have more then 3 boxes open at a time on Heroic). As far as Garrosh? Crystal for only 1 out of 3 (4 on heroic) phases? That seems like a complete waste to me, unless you really want to factor in the intermissions and MCs which take only a couple seconds before adds are killed and MCs are broken.

A lot of it comes down to personal raid comp and how high your raid DPS is in regards to crystal value, which in my case is near zero. Sim results don't always equal raid results and personal value must be weighed in certain situations, in this case I'm mainly speaking about crystal value with raid DPS.

[fearom]

All depends how your guilds raid DPS is and how you handle fights in reality.
snip

Agree with this post completely. On my 25hc Siegecrafter kill (and every 4 million attempt on prog), our other ele shaman was rocking the cleave trinket for mines and they were being burnt down so fast it wasn't giving him any overall dps increase across the fight at all.

You simply cannot beat the amp/multistrike trinket at the moment under a 'real' progression situation. There are points where if you cheese a mechanic and stack super amounts of mobs up, tell your warlock, hunter, mage, monk and warrior not to attack anything that the cleave trinket pulls ahead; in most situations this isn't viable and everything dies so fast you want an improvement of single target damage not AE. We are very much a specialised class at the moment.

I don't know about the other guys but when I SimC my toon across like 25,000 iterations I almost always end up with "you need more haste" in my reforge plots, which when I reforge into haste, nets me with LESS dps then focusing on mastery (at my ilvl of 575).

You really need to look at the ACTUAL benefits of making a gear decision rather then saying "SimC told me so!".

[Sock]

Agree with this post completely. On my 25hc Siegecrafter kill (and every 4 million attempt on prog), our other ele shaman was rocking the cleave trinket for mines and they were being burnt down so fast it wasn't giving him any overall dps increase across the fight at all.

You simply cannot beat the amp/multistrike trinket at the moment under a 'real' progression situation. There are points where if you cheese a mechanic and stack super amounts of mobs up, tell your warlock, hunter, mage, monk and warrior not to attack anything that the cleave trinket pulls ahead; in most situations this isn't viable and everything dies so fast you want an improvement of single target damage not AE. We are very much a specialised class at the moment.

Not every raid comp (especially when 10s are involved) will have a warlock, hunter, mage, monk, and warrior, on top of a shaman. Those six classes combined is a lot of cleave/AOE, but if you're lacking those and you're either one of the few (or only) classes/specs in your raid group with solid cleave, then the Frenzied Crystal does indeed have a use.

[Skurkitty]

Not every raid comp (especially when 10s are involved) will have a warlock, hunter, mage, monk, and warrior, on top of a shaman. Those six classes combined is a lot of cleave/AOE, but if you're lacking those and you're either one of the few (or only) classes/specs in your raid group with solid cleave, then the Frenzied Crystal does indeed have a use.

Since he was quoting me, I'll follow this up. That's why my original point was crystal is based on personal raid value, the reason I said this is simply because it was being thought of as a blanket positive trinket on certain fights flat out. I made the comment about raid comp so if a certain Shaman happens to read this and he does have a bit of class cleave in his raid he may rethink the trinket value. Granted yes having those six classes in a raid is a lot of cleave, but honestly even having three of them is more then enough pending the makeup. For the most part in our raid group the bulk of the cleave comes from our warlock, warrior, and myself.

Fenzied Crystal has a couple factors to consider no matter the raid comp. I'm not dismissing it claiming it's a horrible trinket, it's not. But if you have players who are capable of such strong output when cleave is needed then it's a lot easier to say "Okay I don't need the cleave trinket, let me use Toxic Totem instead for more output on the single target portion of the fight while still giving strong cleave."

In my honest opinion any third class to combo with an Ele / Warlock with cleave capabilities should bring more then enough dps output to allow yourself to consider Totem over Crystal. Be it a Hunter, Warrior, Boomkin, or Combat Rogue, etc etc. Warlocks are very strong overall so I consider them baseline in any heroic progression guild raid comp. Granted not all guilds hold these options, and everyone's raid DPS is different. If your guild is struggling with cleave damage then Crystal does 110% have a use, but unless you're struggling I'm unsure how much weight it has over Totem.

[Deleted]

As I said, use the Garrosh trinket on single-target fights like Iron Juggernaught but the Dark Shaman trinket on others that have multiple targets.

People already have theirs and I could care less about your opinions on trinket priority for my raid composition.

Do you understand that Multistrike is not Cleave? Go research the difference before you make another post.

[Lavalashlol]

As I said, use the Garrosh trinket on single-target fights like Iron Juggernaught but the Dark Shaman trinket on others that have multiple targets.

People already have theirs and I could care less about your opinions on trinket priority for my raid composition.

The garrosh trinket is a nice filler if you're like me and were using a ToT trinket, but in every aspect of a single target fight you're wrong taking the same level Garrosh over Shamans, you are very welcome to your opinion, but please refrain from stating it as fact especially if you don't know what you're talking about. People come here for help, and the people supplying the help should at least know what they are talking about first.

[jimmyolsen]

Since he was quoting me, I'll follow this up. That's why my original point was crystal is based on personal raid value, the reason I said this is simply because it was being thought of as a blanket positive trinket on certain fights flat out. I made the comment about raid comp so if a certain Shaman happens to read this and he does have a bit of class cleave in his raid he may rethink the trinket value. Granted yes having those six classes in a raid is a lot of cleave, but honestly even having three of them is more then enough pending the makeup. For the most part in our raid group the bulk of the cleave comes from our warlock, warrior, and myself.

I had no intention of having my response come off as a blanket statement, which is why I said, "A case could be made for...depending on how your raid handles things." However, looking back at the post, my mention of Spoils without any conditions mentioned (I did mention clumping for Protectors) is certainly a blanketing statement. For that I accept responsibility.

However, my response in fact was directed at you for the same reason you responded to mine; your original sounded like a blanket statement. You stated that the trinket was "trivial." I merely wanted to emphasize it has more value on 3 mobs than the Totem has on 1, and that anyone weighing whether or not to get rid of/pick up a Frenzied Crystal needs to consider the scenario at hand; the exact thing you advocated. I'm not advocating switching to Crystal solely for logs (notice I don't mention Klaxxi at all in my post), only when the cleave damage is actually useful in reducing the amount of time spent on an encounter (which is why I was cautious about Galakras).

In conclusion, you and I both had the same thoughts, and we both worded ourselves poorly.

[ACRL]

As I said, use the Garrosh trinket on single-target fights like Iron Juggernaught but the Dark Shaman trinket on others that have multiple targets.

You are wrong, shut up please.