aMoC placement in the opener

[mediic]

Pretty easy to see for yourself which cases Blink Strikes would do more damage than AmoC. Do a fight with Crows, look at your ability breakdown in Skada/Recount/WoL, compare Crows damage to (Bite/Claw/Smack x 0.5). If you pressed your AmoC button on cooldown then it likely came out significantly ahead, enough that you can discount the other more difficult to measure benefits to Blink Strikes (focus, gcd, pet uptime). If not, then use BS for that fight or use crows better next time.


On topic:
Good luck finding two people that agree on the definitive perfect sequence of abilities on the opener.
I don't think missing out on proc uptime for AmoC on the pull is very relevant, though it does kinda suck. I think you'll find that most agree getting SrS, Expl, BA and Stampede out first is higher priority. From there it depends on your talents and the fight and it probably isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

[Deleted]

Mine is similar as dela's, though i cant fit in that serpent sting unless i have heroism on pull. im going ES+RF, BA, Stampede, crows, cobra, srs, ES, cobra & then glaive

[Darth Belichick]

Yes run your sims all you want, you have not even killed a boss in normal mode SoO your opinion means nothing.


I never said blink strikes was "better" i said use blink strikes. Use what ever you want idc.

I'd like to see where you are getting your information, as I am 2/14 HM (yeah not great, but still better than what you're saying) and 14/14 normal.


And you said "dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread" implying that Blink Strikes is better.

[Kissthebaby]

I'd like to see where you are getting your information, as I am 2/14 HM (yeah not great, but still better than what you're saying) and 14/14 normal.


And you said "dont use AMoC use blink stikes /thread" implying that Blink Strikes is better.

I could be implying many things with that quote doesnt mean its true.

[rustyboy]

To the OP:

Pretty much what Dela said, although I would also add using Rapid Fire with your potion to up your focus regen as this could be the difference between getting Crows off without having to Cobra Shot. If your still having issues then try putting Serpent Sting first as you could only be missing a couple of focus. After this its all about Lock and Load if you have the T16 4 Piece.

AMoC vs BS

Beast Mastery
If you are using Beast Cleave on an encounter then you are going to use Blink Strikes. If you are not then you will need to check your logs to see if BS or AMoC is better for each encounter with your gear.

Survival
If your choosing BS to ease your rotation and not worry about AMoC thats one thing, however AMoC will just do more damage based on this tiers current encounters, trinkets etc. on pretty much every fight. Remember BS only effects Basic Attacks (Bite, Claw etc) it does not increase Auto Attack damage.

Fervor vs Thrill of the Hunt

If you have the T16 4 Piece as Survival Fervor really loses value, with Thrill of the Hunt your focus becomes a non-issue.

Thrill of the Hunt has great synergy with the current two main PvE specs (BM/Survival)

- By using TotH you are going to be using AS/MS more for both specs
- More AS/MS = Better Cobra Strikes/Beast Cleave up time for BM
- More AS/MS = ~50% up time for Rapid Fire with T16 2 Piece
- 50% up time of Rapid Fire = less time casting Cobra Shots & more focus regeneration
- MS can be used to maintain SrS (20 Focus) with Improved SrS for more damage (Survival)

[Sul]

As survival, wrong. Maybe on the occasional fight but I like AMoC on most other fights.

On Sv Correct --BS is better then AMoC by a long way from all the sims ( and in practice) I have done with my gear from ilvl530 to 550 so far - and heres the big tip --the higher the latency you have the better BS becomes. Same goes with DB with my current gear ( 4 piece /550 ) at latency 37 fervor sims 3k better then the other two , at latency 200 fervor still sims 3k better then TotH but only 500 more then DB , in practice at 200 latency I actually get more dps using DB then fervor

[Kissthebaby]

fervor buffs bs by a lot in fact i wouldnt use blink strikes without fervor as surv. If you prefer thrill of the hunt than you are probably better off using AMoC

[Deleted]

fervor buffs bs by a lot in fact i wouldnt use blink strikes without fervor as surv. If you prefer thrill of the hunt than you are probably better off not using AMoC

It is not like AMoC is unmanageable without fervor... some of you guys put it in a way that it seems you need to be an air traffic controller to play SV with any talent combination. You can play any combination of talents and the DPS spread from best to worst combo is still smaller than the RNG effect from the 4pt16.

[mediic]

On Sv Correct --BS is better then AMoC by a long way from all the sims ( and in practice) I have done with my gear from ilvl530 to 550 so far - and heres the big tip --the higher the latency you have the better BS becomes. Same goes with DB with my current gear ( 4 piece /550 ) at latency 37 fervor sims 3k better then the other two , at latency 200 fervor still sims 3k better then TotH but only 500 more then DB , in practice at 200 latency I actually get more dps using DB then fervor

Link your armory or profile so we can verify your results. Not that the results should be taken at face value, but I'm curious if you're just making stuff up.
I had very different results testing your settings with two armory profiles in that ilvl range.

fervor buffs bs by a lot in fact i wouldnt use blink strikes without fervor as surv. If you prefer thrill of the hunt than you are probably better off not using AMoC

This is nonsense. Are these statements supposed to be related? Did you mean to say "...probably better off not using BS"? Either way it's wrong.

So much misinformation.

You can play any combination of talents and the DPS spread from best to worst combo is still smaller than the RNG effect from the 4pt16.

This guy knows what's up.

[Deleted]

You can play any combination of talents and the DPS spread from best to worst combo is still smaller than the RNG effect from the 4pt16.

Glad someone added this!

The within and between fight variation is often too large to even spot the differences between talents like AmoC and BS. There are fights that favor certain abilities (spoils and BS for example), but largely it boils down to nothing but personal preference. It's not really possible to explain the variation with 10-20 parses and personal experience.

[mediic]

Glad someone added this!

The within and between fight variation is often too large to even spot the differences between talents like AmoC and BS. There are fights that favor certain abilities (spoils and BS for example), but largely it boils down to nothing but personal preference. It's not really possible to explain the variation with 10-20 parses and personal experience.

I used to use BS for Spoils but I changed my mind. For heroic mode at least I think having crows up for the big crates is much more useful than any possible gain you would get throughout the fight with BS. Those big crates just make the raid melt on heroic and it's best to get them dead ASAP.

I only really like BS for Galakras, and if you're progressing on Galakras the hardest part is probably P2 where AMoC would be better. Maybe Immerseus, but my pet despawns when I use BS for that. Everything else crows just does significantly more damage if you compare them in your ability breakdown.

[rustyboy]

You can play any combination of talents and the DPS spread from best to worst combo is still smaller than the RNG effect from the 4pt16.

Remember this is survival we are talking about. For survival AMoC even at 2 uses over a 4 min fight (Just before the 3rd use) will do a lot more damage (750k+ on my logs) than BS provides. Anyone stating different doesn't look at their logs or anyone else's for that matter. Fervor will not allow BS to make up that kind of difference.

The biggest point is... in most encounters your job is to kill adds and the boss quicker and to that fact alone as survival AMoC is going to allow you to do this much more effectively than BS.

[Deleted]

Remember this is survival we are talking about. For survival AMoC even at 2 uses over a 4 min fight (Just before the 3rd use) will do a lot more damage (750k+ on my logs) than BS provides. Anyone stating different doesn't look at their logs or anyone else's for that matter. Fervor will not allow BS to make up that kind of difference.

The biggest point is... in most encounters your job is to kill adds and the boss quicker and to that fact alone as survival AMoC is going to allow you to do this much more effectively than BS.

And I agree that AMoC is clearly superior anytime you can use it on something that will live for 30 sec and when off CD. In fact, having AoC+AMoC lets you align them both for really powerful AMoC uses, while with BS it has not that a big impact. But again, the dps difference between AMoC + fervor or ToTH vs fervor+BS is not that big to have a noticeable impact in the end. Even if it was 10k dps (which is too much) the 4 piece alone can make up for it. Personally I hate SV for single target fights, I just play BM or even MM. The only bosses I play SV are norushen, where I rarely reset corruption, and Spoils, and in none of them I use AMoC (after some practice you learn to not get your pet stuck in boxes). But after some kills on Heroic malkorok or Thok tries, I decided to stick to BM or even to go MM. As MM I get a lot more consistent results and a comparable DPS (391k max as BM, 381 as SV and 377 as MM as my best kills), while avoiding as much RNG as possible. On those bosses. Also when I play MM I go AMoC and either DB or fervor, and there's nothing challenging on using AMoC as MM no matter what other talents you use.

[Kissthebaby]

This is nonsense. Are these statements supposed to be related? Did you mean to say "...probably better off not using BS"? .

Yeah thats what I meant, typo.

[Sul]

Link your armory or profile so we can verify your results. Not that the results should be taken at face value, but I'm curious if you're just making stuff up.
I had very different results testing your settings with two armory profiles in that ilvl range.



.

yeah sure , my toon is Sulakin on nagrand US --use secondary spec ( SV ) , pet is cat -- I change nothing else on the settings or buffs

As I just gained two Ilvls I redone the testes with the following results

common to all - pet is cat , last two talents are BS and Barrage.

AT latency 37
Fervor = 0
DB = - 4371
ToTH = -3956.68

At Latency 200
fervor=0
DB = +1526.45
TotH = - 3114.14

so using DB changed BS to AMoC and got -4154 dps

so now with my gear and my latency DB is by far the best --hope you can repeat these or tell me what I am doing wrong .

Edit :--Just found what I was doing wrong with AMoC-- when I swapped talents it didn't put AMoC automatically into the shot list , when I did this manually it actually gave around 4k dps boost with AMoC - been doing this all expansion --DOH. The reason I seem to getting betting better DPS with BS the AMoC in real fights probably is I keep loosing track of the AMoC cooldown so I don't use it as often as I should , will have to train myself to use it better

Using Female dwarf btw

[mediic]

I just tested it using your profile and settings and got the same numbers you did for DB/Fervor/TotH with the latency setting.
I suspected that might've been the problem with AMoC, make sure you include DB in the priority list when changing that tier around so you don't have the same problem.

My guess is that FD isn't modelling the effects of latency on DB very well. It seems odd that there would be a ~5900 DPS swing relative to fervor going from 37 to 200ms. If you spec for DB and don't even cast it (remove from the action list) you only lose ~6500 DPS. Something doesn't add up.

I play with 250ms and my experience (very hard, maybe impossible to judge) is that DB does slightly less damage on straight up dummy DPS. Fervor and TotH are both situationally useful (fervor for 30s burst windows, toth for more steady focus bleeding and multishot spam), DB isn't really situationally useful and I find it clunky with the GCD usage and beast uptime/missed attacks.

[Slykz]

I never liked Icy veins' opening rotation as it made me have to cast a Cobra shot in the middle of the opener to cast aMoC.

My opening rotation is currently this:

aMoC -> Stampede/Rapid Fire > Dire Beast > ES > SS > BA > Glaive toss

This opener gives me exactly the amount of focus i need for my opener as i have around the exact amount needed for the spells after each of them. Has been working awesome for me ^_^

[eschatological]

Delaying your ES by 3 GCDs is generally meh, but since AMoC updates dynamically as your buffs come up, as does DB, this might be less bad than anything else. Regardless, you're going to be cobra-shotting under potion/buffs anyways (unlike a BM opening under BW until the very end) so you might as well move ES up, and cobra shot to AMoC later.

But to be honest, I'd give your rotation a go. 30s is long enough to ensure every buff is fully used by AMoC. I might try it out. You might also try pushing SrS a bit earlier, before Stampede, to get Viper Venom going. You're going to refresh it via CoS after Glaive Toss anyways, to snapshot some uber buffs for a bit.

[Tehstool]

Guys can we keep it civil please?

[Deleted]

fervor buffs bs by a lot in fact i wouldnt use blink strikes without fervor as surv. If you prefer thrill of the hunt than you are probably better off not using AMoC

You're making it sound like it is a hard job to pool focus slightly when your AMoC is about to come off CD.