The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[DeeTwelve]

To make Jaina a villain would require making her ridiculously hypocritical. I've had enough of blatant hypocrisy from the characters already, especially the ones that the players are meant to root for.

If anything, Jaina should calm the hell down at this point to prove that it's possible to only be momentarily angry in the Warcraft universe.

She did calm down from her "ARGH I WILL DESTROY ORGRIMMAR WITH A TIDAL WAVE" peak of rage. Horde babies are just mad she didn't calm all the way down into thinking they're all the hipster underdog heroes they pretend to be.

[Mormolyce]

Ugh I really hope Jaina doesn't continue down the path of aggressive warmonger, what a betrayal of her character that would be.

[Eats Compost]

She did calm down from her "ARGH I WILL DESTROY ORGRIMMAR WITH A TIDAL WAVE" peak of rage. Horde babies are just mad she didn't calm all the way down into thinking they're all the hipster underdog heroes they pretend to be.

She's acting kind of dumb, though. Varian himself gives good reasons for why Jaina's Palpatine routine in SoO was misguided, and her actions in general aren't terribly rational. She's just doing damage to the Alliance at this point, especially with the bell fiasco.

They should make a point of a restoration to what she used to be, rather than trying to poorly slot her into some kind warmonger role.

[saintminya]

I eagerly await a Siege of Dalaran style raid, due to Jaina's relative craziness. While I have to agree that is mildly warranred since Theramore was bombed, although not out of nowhere, I mean come on, its the only Alliance main base on Kalimdor, and far too close to Orgrimmar, plus the spies the Alliance surely has ought to have uneartherd the plans...not to mention the fighting that ensued prior, all of Theramore's non-defendors could have been evacuated. I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's a notion that haunts her, but i digress.

Ultimately, while she had reason to get mad, she flipped out instead. Blaming an entire group for the actions of one corrupt individual. That none of the Sunreavers were aware of no less. Then she imprisons them and kicks them out of their home, their passion, their Dalaran. That is mighty unfair, especially after they voted for her to lead the Kirin Tor.

And as if that wasn't enough, she completely reverses her ideals. Once a peaceful and respected lady, now a warmongering bitch. She completely snapped, and i would not be surprised if the Kirin Tor started to take issue with her overly militant actions, ideally leading to removing her from power...and maybe re-inducting the Sunreavers

[Aquamonkey]

all of Theramore's non-defendors could have been evacuated. I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's a notion that haunts her, but i digress.

They were evacuated. It wasn't revealed until SoO that the civilians were captured.

[delus]

Yes, of course. Her admittedly acting based on emotion instead of sense, disregarding urgent Kirin Tor matters to help her boyfriend, and looking down on the Council are just her having trouble adjusting...

Keep in mind this is happening after the Purge. She's already been leader for quite some time. And it's not like she's new to this kind of responsibility.

What about the growing distrust from mages she's leading?

Her leadership has been for only few months at this point.The growing distrust mentioned is said to be caused by her association with a blue dragon. Their fears are not validated though. Kalecgos is not responsible for the actions of Malygos. He even fought against his former master.

[Last Starfighter]

I would love to see Jaina go into attack mode and do some major damage to the Horde, but with Chris Metzen holding the pen, I doubt any Alliance characters will be getting any more face time than the couple of fish we got thrown in Mists. We're already looking at the 3rd Horde-centric expansion in a row. Don't get your hopes up.

Yeah, because he totally doesn't care about the story. He doesn't care about trying to make the best story possible so blizz can make more money. No, it's gotta be because an imaginary faction, and fictional characters obviously take priority over them making money. Yeah. That's it.

"Derp mertzern. Derpin der allerernce. Derp de horde xpernsion". Reminds me of the "Terk r jerbz" people on south park.

[Aquamonkey]

Her leadership has been for only few months at this point.The growing distrust mentioned is said to be caused by her association with a blue dragon. Their fears are not validated though. Kalecgos is not responsible for the actions of Malygos. He even fought against his former master.

Their fears may have been misguided as racism, but they are validated when she blows off urgent business to do shit for her boyfriend while she looks down on the Council with contempt.

[Nazaraki]

I wish they would restore Jaina as a respectable Character instead of walking down the "Goes mental" path.
To be fair she has had a lot of mental stress during the last few years, take Arthas for example they were childhood friends and most likely had feelings for eachother.
Arthas became corrupted and Theramore destroyed along with her apprentice and love intrest.

But i hope they build her as a strong Character and not kill her off.

[Flutterguy]

None of her actions during MoP were insane and her desire to dismantle the horde was not exactly an unpopular viewpoint for the Alliance given the history.

[7seti]

The army of orcs Garrosh had positioned outside the Greymane Wall.

Ah, so you're going for the "pulling Kor'kron out his backside" theory.

Face facts. Either there are still a considerable number of former Garrosh-supporters in the Horde, or (if we already killed them all) the Horde must be so dramatically weakened that they'd be in no position to put up a fight.

[Deleted]

Jaina is basically the sylvanas of the alliance. People complain that alliance lore has been boring recently so they're probably just trying to spice it up.

Shame shes a really shit character tho

[Deleted]

No. Please no.


My lord that's such a horrible idea.

[Aquamonkey]

Internal griping devoid of action means nothing, and the rest of the Horde didn't take action against Garrosh until he turned on them.

Shit, Hitler had more opposition from his own people than Garrosh did from the rest of the Horde prior to his whole True Horde meltdown. At least Hitler's opponents actually tried to assassinate him, even without him trying to throw them out of their own country first.

Ah, so you're going for the "pulling Kor'kron out his backside" theory.

Face facts. Either there are still a considerable number of former Garrosh-supporters in the Horde, or (if we already killed them all) the Horde must be so dramatically weakened that they'd be in no position to put up a fight.

How fucking naive are you? Garrosh was strong-arming them. They didn't know who was with or against them. Dissenters were threatened and punished. They were isolated from each other and unable to do anything on their own. You act like they telepathically knew exactly who would support them. Baine even says he can't risk joining Vol'jin's open rebellion until he gets his people out of Orgrimmar. And this is AFTER the rebellion has started and he knows he will have people to back him up.

[7seti]

How fucking naive are you? Garrosh was strong-arming them. They didn't know who was with or against them. Dissenters were threatened and punished. They were isolated from each other and unable to do anything on their own. You act like they telepathically knew exactly who would support them. Baine even says he can't risk joining Vol'jin's open rebellion until he gets his people out of Orgrimmar. And this is AFTER the rebellion has started and he knows he will have people to back him up.

So the Horde is going to fall in line behind the next person to strong-arm them. All the more reason to split them up.

[DeicideUH]

When Admiral Proudmoore took control of Theramore and attacked Durotar, Jaina sided with Thrall against her father once reasoning with him didn't work. She allowed Thrall to kill Admiral Proudmoore, her own father, so that there could be peace. That action left a lot of Theramore military personel disatisfied with her, with traitors plotting against her until Theramore was destroyed.

Wrathgate treason. When Varian stormed Undercity, he saw first-hand the horrors of the Forsaken, including the human experiments down there. He got mad, blamed the whole Horde and decided to end the Horde right there, attacking Thrall and Sylvanas. Jaina teleported the Alliance forces away, preventing a bloody conflict and possibly saving Thrall and/or Sylvanas.

When the orcs were having resources problems, groups of Horde entered Ashenvale and murdered and butchered nigh elf sentinels to steal lumber. This lumber was brought to Orgrimmar. Despite being against the peace treaty between Alliance and Horde, the lumber stealing proved very popular among the Horde, as they saw the much needed lumber as their right. Jaina called Thrall and asked him to denounce and punish publicly the ones responsible. Thrall denied her request because he feared it would lower Horde morale.

When Baine Bloodhoof was exiled from Mulgore due to Grimtotem treachery, he looked for Jaina. Anduin and Jaina offer the tauren the option of joining the Alliance, which Baine refuses, but still Jaina gave him resources to buy weapons and zepelims in order to retake Thunderbluff. Baine got help from Jaina while the Horde itself (except for individual warriors from other races who chose to fight for Baine) did nothing to help him.

With the now Warchief Garrosh becoming more and more violent and dedicated to war, Jaina called Thrall and asked him to intervene. Thrall once again refused.

Theramore is attacked. Baine was part of the attacking forces. A sunreaver Blood Elf betrays Dalaran decision of supporting Theramore's defense and open the gates so the Horde can enter. Theramore is destroyed.

Jaina gets really mad and tries to destroy Orgrimmar in response. Thrall appears to try to stop her. She blames him for doing nothing despite her asking him to multiple times. Kalecgos ends up calming down Jaina, but her trust in Thrall is shattered forever.

Jaina becomes the Kirin Tor leader. She decides to not blame the Sunreavers and still strives for peace.

The Sunreavers betray her trust by stealing the Divine Bell and taking it throught Dalaran to Silvermoon. Jaina orders the Sunreavers to leave, which Aethas refuses. Jaina decides them to purge them off Dalaran, imprisoning them (except those who resist). Despite everything that's happening, the blood elves still choose to give the Divine Bell to Garrosh.

Really, what do you expect from her? The Horde has been backstabbing her all the way. She gave her father over to the Horde and stopped Varian's assault on Undercity hoping for peace, but Thrall wouldn't even punish those responsible on raids against Alliance lands. Both the tauren and the blood elves had the option of leaving the Horde, but still backed up Garrosh.

----------------------

And to those that defend the rest of the Horde for being intimidated, the only Horde leader with balls to confront Garrosh was Vol'jin. Sylvanas would pose all mighty and high but still do what he ordered of her (because the conquest of Lordaeron was in her interests too). Baine was just silently hoping things would get better. Lor'themar was planning to leave but still chose to steal the Divine Bell from the Alliance (the Divine Bell was brought to him in Silvermoon. I don't buy he didn't know what was happening, or else he's just a incompetent leader). Vol'jin was the first to oppose him, which made Garrosh to try and assassinate him, and he was the one who started the rebellion. And I need to remind everyone that the trolls are one of the smallest populations in the Horde. All the others were just cowards too afraid to face Garrosh or too happy to do his bidding until Garrosh turned on them.

[Aquamonkey]

Even back before Pandaria, Varian knew there were dissenters among Garrosh's ranks who were waiting for the opportunity to rise up. He was even counting on it when he launched his invasion of Orgrimmar.

[DeicideUH]

Even back before Pandaria, Varian knew there were dissenters among Garrosh's ranks who were waiting for the opportunity to rise up. He was even counting on it when he launched his invasion of Orgrimmar.

And yet such dissenters did nothing. The rest of the Horde was too afraid to face Garrosh.

[Aquamonkey]

And yet such dissenters did nothing. The rest of the Horde was too afraid to face Garrosh.

They did nothing because Varian had his ass handed to him out in the bay. The only reason his fleet wasn't obliterated was because Jaina rescued them.

[DeeTwelve]

How fucking naive are you? Garrosh was strong-arming them. They didn't know who was with or against them. Dissenters were threatened and punished. They were isolated from each other and unable to do anything on their own. You act like they telepathically knew exactly who would support them. Baine even says he can't risk joining Vol'jin's open rebellion until he gets his people out of Orgrimmar. And this is AFTER the rebellion has started and he knows he will have people to back him up.

In other words it was every fascist state ever. Wow, what a revelation.

What you don't seem to understand is that what damns the Horde is that Garrosh could get into power, do the things he did, and still maintain enough political power to strong arm anyone. You know that shit Vol'Jin talked to Garrosh ages ago, about how everyone would come to despise him and his "power" would become meaningless? That didn't happen. Garrosh was the one who turned on the others. Their "rebellion" was nothing but self defense.

There's a version of this story where the Horde aren't the villains. It's a version where Garrosh orders a nuke dropped on Theramore and his soldiers refuse. Or a version where Garrosh nukes Theramore, and a horrified Thrall challenges him for leadership the next day, beats the shit out of him, and executes him for war crimes. Or a version where Garrosh orders a bunch of Theramore refugees tortured and everyone in the room just plain doesn't do it. Not the version we actually got.

Garrosh may be a strong warrior, but the only thing that made him powerful was that fact that people inside the Horde were willing to listen to him and do what he said. Without that he'd just be some big strong monster with no power beyond the reach of his axe.

If only a few people inside the Horde were willing to obey him, he'd have ended up isolated, a poser "Warchief" like Kargath Bladefist or Rend Blackhand and their little false Hordes. He'd have ended up the joke Vol'jin predicted. Instead he was able to get enough people to listen to him that everyone else had to whimper and be whipped so badly that they only finally rebelled when Garrosh came directly after them and they had the Alliance to help.

A king no one will obey is just a guy yelling orders in an empty room. The Horde, as a whole, always had the power to leave Garrosh yelling orders to an empty room, but too many of them chose to listen to him instead.