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  1. #121
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    Uh, no. She was willing to give the Horde a second chance, but the Divine Bell was the last straw. After the Divine Bell incident she's consistently seen the Horde as untrustworthy. She just knows to pick her battles.
    No...

    Taran Zhu yells: I see now why your Alliance and Horde cannot stop fighting.
    Taran Zhu yells: Every reprisal is itself an act of aggression, and every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal.
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore yells: They have undermined EVERY attempt at peace!
    Lor'themar Theron yells: I must protect my sovereign people.
    Taran Zhu yells: SILENCE! YOU must break the cycle.
    Taran Zhu yells: It ends TODAY. Here. The cycle ends when you, Regent Lord, and you, Lady Proudmoore, turn from one another. And walk. Away.

    Lor'themar narrows his eyes.
    Jaina takes a deep breath.
    Lor'themar Theorn yells: Rangers. Lower your weapons.
    Scout Captain Elsia yells: My Lord!
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Very well. We will stand down.
    Vereesa Windrunner yells: They killed my husband!
    Lady Jaina Proudmooore says: This won't bring him back.
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: But know this, "Blood" Elf: There can be no peace while Hellscream is Warchief of the Horde.
    Lor'themar Theron says: That is precisely why I wish to conserve our strength today.
    Jaina's expression softens.
    Lor'themar Theron says: Lady.
    Lor'themar bows.
    Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: Lord.
    Jaina curtsies.


    She is still open to the possibility of peace once Garrosh is dethroned. But when Garrosh is no longer Warchief, Jaina flip-flops again and pushes for continuing the war to dismantle the Horde.

  2. #122
    You think all that was completely sincere? As I said, she knows to pick her battles. The middle of a raid on the Thunder King's fortress is not the best time to start a fight, and she knows it. The defeat of Garrosh, however, presents the perfect opportunity to strong-arm the Horde into dismantling as all their leaders are in one room and the Alliance has the advantage in troop numbers.

  3. #123
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    You think all that was completely sincere? As I said, she knows to pick her battles. The middle of a raid on the Thunder King's fortress is not the best time to start a fight, and she knows it. The defeat of Garrosh, however, presents the perfect opportunity to strong-arm the Horde into dismantling as all their leaders are in one room and the Alliance has the advantage in troop numbers.
    But she wasn't picking her battles. She didn't instigate the ceasefire; she wasn't even the first to stand down. If not for Taran Zhu, she would have continued trying to wipe out the BElves there.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    You think all that was completely sincere? As I said, she knows to pick her battles. The middle of a raid on the Thunder King's fortress is not the best time to start a fight, and she knows it. The defeat of Garrosh, however, presents the perfect opportunity to strong-arm the Horde into dismantling as all their leaders are in one room and the Alliance has the advantage in troop numbers.

    Or the fact that the escapees from the Theramore disaster were deliberately hunted down by the Horde, and brought back to Orgrimmar to be tortured and killed, which Jaina could have easily seen because it is the first thing you run into when you enter Orgrimmar during SoO?

  5. #125
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Or the fact that the escapees from the Theramore disaster were deliberately hunted down by the Horde, and brought back to Orgrimmar to be tortured and killed, which Jaina could have easily seen because it is the first thing you run into when you enter Orgrimmar during SoO?
    They weren't publicly displayed or known about until after the rebellion started and evacuated Orgrimmar. There were plenty of other people strung up and tortured from the rebellion's side too.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Vol'jin was about to leave the Horde until Thrall convinced him to stay to try to keep the Horde together.
    Who gives a shit what sensitive bro things Vol'jin and Thrall talked about while they were busy doing nothing and letting Garrosh run everything into the ground? What matters is what the Horde DOES. And anyway, that conversation where Thrall talks about what a "hero" Garrosh will become and Vol'jin decides to just shrug and listen to him is a total disgrace in retrospect. Really makes them both look like naive dipshits now looking back.

    Because Garrosh went around telling everyone he planned on nuking Theramore beforehand?
    He must have told someone, no? He didn't pick the nuke up and throw it by hand, did he?

    Thrall had the Velen dilemma of having to deal with a bigger problem. What was one city when Thrall was trying to keep the entire planet from falling apart?
    We're talking about the same Thrall who had time to drag Alliance players to his wedding and generally stick his stupid face into everything in Cataclysm, right? Uh huh. Too bad Theramore takes place after the fall of Deathwing anyway. Even if it didn't, and Thrall really was busy, why wouldn't he just go dickslap Garrosh as soon as he was done?

    Those refugees were hidden even from the Horde.
    Source? Not that it really matters, since no one disputes that they were tortured and executed by soldiers of the Horde at the orders of its Warchief. Hitler had to hide a lot of his more despicable antics from the German public too, so what?

    You mean by the Kor'Kron Garrosh specifically recruited to be loyal to him. Garrosh went outside the Horde to the Dragonmaw and defunct Blackrock for that kind of devotion.
    Were they outside the Horde, or were they recruited into the Horde, and even into a specific military unit, by the Warchief? Make up your mind, champ.

    Garrosh had the support of the main body of the Horde, the orcs. He had their support from the very beginning. It was for that reason Thrall made him leader. Then he recruiting ruthless orcs from outside the Horde to follow him exclusively which he could use to impose his rule over the others and crush dissenters. While not all orcs sided with Garrosh in the end, he still had his diehard supporters from the Blackrock and Dragonmaw.
    Leaving aside the fact that those Blackrock and Dragonmaw orcs were citizens of the Horde inducted by the Warchief, leaving aside how incredibly pathetic it would be if those couple of broken-down orc clans could somehow oppress the rest of the Horde put together, it just doesn't matter. They could be foreign mercenaries for all the difference it makes. As long as they're under the Horde banner and taking orders directly from the Warchief of the Horde, the Horde is accountable for their actions.

    Served.
    Last edited by DeeTwelve; 2013-11-29 at 01:00 PM.

  7. #127
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    Because remaining calm after your friends and family got blasted out of existence is apparently very realistic.
    For people like me and you probably not, for the majority of NPCs in the WoW universe probably not either seeing how easily they give in to revenge feelings.
    For Jaina? Yes, it would have been realistic and absolutely coherent with how the character had been portrayed until then.

    Characters like Jaina were just becoming hard to handle because they were promoting piece while, for gameplay reasons, Blizzard wants players to "feel" tension between Horde and Alliance because they are not allies against a third enemy, but two factions at war with each other.
    That's the basic core concept of the game.

    This is the one and only reason why they decided to change here, there is nothing else. All the plot/lore changes are just things that came after to pursue this initial goal of them.

  8. #128
    Seriously, here's why Aquamonkey's head is going to explode one of these nights. He's forced to try and explain why...

    "Horde military forces, acting under direct orders of the Warchief of the Horde, did a bad thing."

    ...is totally different than...

    "The Horde did a bad thing."

    And it's just not going to compute. It's going to be like an old episode of Star Trek where they talk the evil computer into trying to divide by zero and smoke starts pouring out.

  9. #129
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    He must have told someone, no? He didn't pick the nuke up and throw it by hand, did he?
    Yea, the trusted loyalists who would follow Garrosh no matter what?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Too bad Theramore takes place after the fall of Deathwing anyway.
    Did you miss the part where they had to fix the damage DW did to the Maelstrom?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Source?
    The fact that it was only revealed in SoO raid? There's no mention of them anywhere before this. Go fly through Orgrimmar some time. There are no Theramore citizens being strung up.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Were they outside the Horde, or were they recruited into the Horde, and even into a specific military unit, by the Warchief? Make up your mind, champ.
    Recruited from outside the Horde. You know, like Malkorok and Zaela? They swore loyalty exclusively to Garrosh. And they are the most brutal of his supporters.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Leaving aside the fact that those Blackrock and Dragonmaw orcs were citizens of the Horde inducted by the Warchief, leaving aside how incredibly pathetic it would be if those couple of broken-down orc clans could somehow oppress the rest of the Horde put together, it just doesn't matter. They could be foreign mercenaries for all the difference it makes. As long as they're under the Horde banner and taking orders directly from the Warchief of the Horde, the Horde is accountable for their actions.
    Must be why there were singled out for special treatment and elevated above the rest of the Horde...

    Blizzard even spells it out for you when Varian says: The Horde has committed heinous crimes, Vol'jin. But some among you fought against Garrosh's tyranny. For that, I'm willing to end this bloodshed. But know this : if your Horde fails to uphold honor as Garrosh did, we will end you.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-29 at 01:11 PM.

  10. #130
    Just repeating myself, but to all "Jaina is crazy/wrong/genocidal" people:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    When Admiral Proudmoore took control of Theramore and attacked Durotar, Jaina sided with Thrall against her father once reasoning with him didn't work. She allowed Thrall to kill Admiral Proudmoore, her own father, so that there could be peace. That action left a lot of Theramore military personel disatisfied with her, with traitors plotting against her until Theramore was destroyed.

    Wrathgate treason. When Varian stormed Undercity, he saw first-hand the horrors of the Forsaken, including the human experiments down there. He got mad, blamed the whole Horde and decided to end the Horde right there, attacking Thrall and Sylvanas. Jaina teleported the Alliance forces away, preventing a bloody conflict and possibly saving Thrall and/or Sylvanas.

    When the orcs were having resources problems, groups of Horde entered Ashenvale and murdered and butchered nigh elf sentinels to steal lumber. This lumber was brought to Orgrimmar. Despite being against the peace treaty between Alliance and Horde, the lumber stealing proved very popular among the Horde, as they saw the much needed lumber as their right. Jaina called Thrall and asked him to denounce and punish publicly the ones responsible. Thrall denied her request because he feared it would lower Horde morale.

    When Baine Bloodhoof was exiled from Mulgore due to Grimtotem treachery, he looked for Jaina. Anduin and Jaina offer the tauren the option of joining the Alliance, which Baine refuses, but still Jaina gave him resources to buy weapons and zepelims in order to retake Thunderbluff. Baine got help from Jaina while the Horde itself (except for individual warriors from other races who chose to fight for Baine) did nothing to help him.

    With the now Warchief Garrosh becoming more and more violent and dedicated to war, Jaina called Thrall and asked him to intervene. Thrall once again refused.

    Theramore is attacked. Baine was part of the attacking forces. A sunreaver Blood Elf betrays Dalaran decision of supporting Theramore's defense and open the gates so the Horde can enter. Theramore is destroyed.

    Jaina gets really mad and tries to destroy Orgrimmar in response. Thrall appears to try to stop her. She blames him for doing nothing despite her asking him to multiple times. Kalecgos ends up calming down Jaina, but her trust in Thrall is shattered forever.

    Jaina becomes the Kirin Tor leader. She decides to not blame the Sunreavers and still strives for peace.

    The Sunreavers betray her trust by stealing the Divine Bell and taking it throught Dalaran to Silvermoon. Jaina orders the Sunreavers to leave, which Aethas refuses. Jaina decides them to purge them off Dalaran, imprisoning them (except those who resist). Despite everything that's happening, the blood elves still choose to give the Divine Bell to Garrosh.

    Really, what do you expect from her? The Horde has been backstabbing her all the way. She gave her father over to the Horde and stopped Varian's assault on Undercity hoping for peace, but Thrall wouldn't even punish those responsible on raids against Alliance lands. Both the tauren and the blood elves had the option of leaving the Horde, but still backed up Garrosh.

    ----------------------

    And to those that defend the rest of the Horde for being intimidated, the only Horde leader with balls to confront Garrosh was Vol'jin. Sylvanas would pose all mighty and high but still do what he ordered of her (because the conquest of Lordaeron was in her interests too). Baine was just silently hoping things would get better. Lor'themar was planning to leave but still chose to steal the Divine Bell from the Alliance (the Divine Bell was brought to him in Silvermoon. I don't buy he didn't know what was happening, or else he's just a incompetent leader). Vol'jin was the first to oppose him, which made Garrosh to try and assassinate him, and he was the one who started the rebellion. And I need to remind everyone that the trolls are one of the smallest populations in the Horde. All the others were just cowards too afraid to face Garrosh or too happy to do his bidding until Garrosh turned on them.
    She's been backstabbed repeatedly by the Horde. Not only Garrosh, but even Thrall left her to herself when she needed him, twice. How trustworthy is Lor'themar? Or Sylvanas? Does Baine has the balls to do what's right when time comes? Her past inaction meant the destruction of Theramore. It's not Jaina who's wrong, it's the Horde that should be working towards rebuilding the bridge to her. Instead Horde you just want her to bend over and give her blind trust to the Horde yet again?

  11. #131
    The Patient Mage of Rage's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind.

    I liked Garrosh and they threw away his character development to make him a villain because too many people didn't like a headstrong orc who would actually take charge of the Horde and return it to the glory days before they aligned with the flaky elves and the evil undead.

    So, in turn, although I liked Jaina in the past they threw all her character development away so they might as well finish the job of ruining her and make her a villain too. Forget everything she did with Thrall and how she cried when Varian let Varok reclaim Dranosh - she's a villain now! BECAUSE CHRISTIE GOLDEN!! WAAAAAAAAAUGH!!!

    No, but in all seriousness, they ruined Jaina with MoP and they might as well get rid of her.

  12. #132
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    And Theramore plus the events that followed convinced her that she had been wrong.

    You have your view of the character, and I have mine. Personally I find it a bit insulting that finally refusing to take any more crap is considered "violating" the character. I'd consider it a flaw if her perspective did not change after all that's happened.
    The problem is not the fact that there was a change, but how big and sudden it was.

    Yes her father and many relatives were killed.
    So one eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth?
    Or even worse let's kill 10 hordes for every 1 theramore citizen killed?

    Of course me and you and many other people would have reacted the same way, but we are not like the old Jaina.
    Could you imagine Gandhi reacting after the Nth slap he receives and starting using kung fu moves to react and subvert the regime?
    Pardon me for using Mahatma Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, it's just an example of course.

    Jaina was kinda similar to Gandhi and characters like him, in a way. Yet after a certain point she decides that she has passed a certain threshold and decides she wants to go against everything she believed in until then.

    That's a BIG change, and it's VERY sudden.



    They could have changed something in her personality, slowly, making her bitter, and bitter, and bitter and maybe finally making her explode. But turning her all that way after a single event with such poor dialogue lines and cut-scenes? It was a really rushed choice on Blizzard's side imho, clearly shows how little they cared about it (of course they didn't, for them it wasn't a necessarily interesting twist of things, it was just an "instrument" to reach their goal, i.e. putting fuel on the fire of Horde vs Alliance)

  13. #133
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Their fears may have been misguided as racism, but they are validated when she blows off urgent business to do shit for her boyfriend while she looks down on the Council with contempt.
    Most of them never wanted her to lead in the first place, and she never wanted to lead anyway; she actually asked to go back as an apprentice or some other low echelon position. She's leader because it was revealed that Krasos saw it in a vision that it would be, ultimately, best for the Kirin Tor for her to lead it. There's going to be a lot of time for adjustment for everyone after that.

    To expand on that, her future is already mapped out as the best leader for the Kirin Tor; not a genocidal mental case.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2013-11-29 at 01:14 PM.

  14. #134
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Important/Iconic NPC figure turning bat shit crazy, I like that idea, it's original, it's new....

    wait what....

    No, just simply no. Please, at some point the same pattern is chewed to death and repetition feels bland and boring.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Did you miss the part where they had to fix the damage DW did to the Maelstrom?
    did you miss the part where he dropped all of this shit in an instant when Jaina was trying to drown Orgrimmar?

  16. #136
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    did you miss the part where he dropped all of this shit in an instant when Jaina was trying to drown Orgrimmar?
    Did you miss the part where the water elementals Jaina enslaved begged him to help them? And that it was preventing the Earthen Ring from repairing the Maelstrom? They were about to send a bunch of shaman to help the elementals, but Nobundo insisted that only Thrall go because he was the one the elementals contacted.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-29 at 01:28 PM.

  17. #137
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by 7seti View Post
    The Kirin Tor will remain Alliance as it once was and should have always been.
    Exactly, it's clear!

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Yea, the trusted loyalists who would follow Garrosh no matter what?
    Boy, he sure doesn't seem to have a hard time finding those! Of course that doesn't explain why no one in the Horde gave a fucking shit even after it happened.

    Did you miss the part where they had to fix the damage DW did to the Maelstrom?
    See below.

    The fact that it was only revealed in SoO raid? There's no mention of them anywhere before this. Go fly through Orgrimmar some time. There are no Theramore citizens being strung up.
    So in other words you don't have any source for this imaginary little conspiracy of yours, you're just going on the fact that the Orgrimmar raid and Orgrimmar city don't match each other. Well la-dee-dah, what a revelation.

    Recruited from outside the Horde.
    Well no shit, it's sort of hard to recruit people into an organization if they're not outside of it to start. I didn't imagine he walked up and down the streets of Orgrimmar asking confused orcs if they wanted to join the Horde.

    You know, like Malkorok and Zaela? They swore loyalty exclusively to Garrosh. And they are the most brutal of his supporters.

    Must be why there were singled out for special treatment and put above the rest of the Horde...
    Source that they swore loyalty exclusively to Garrosh? More importantly, assuming they did, source that this is in any way unusual? The Warchief is, after all, essentially the entire Horde government. It's not like they have a constitution to swear by, is it?

    What's more, who gives a fucking shit? You're not seriously going to suggest that the Tauren, the Blood Elves, the Forsaken, the Darkspear, the Goblins, and any non-fascist orcs were ALL held down and oppressed by... by... those fucking losers from LBRS and those retards who spent the first six years of the game being Alliance newbie punching bags in Wetlands? Jesus holy shit Christ, you're not making the Horde look better here!

    - - - - - - Updated - - - - - -

    By the way, you guys wanna see something hilarious? Remember when I posted this a couple posts ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    We're talking about the same Thrall who had time to drag Alliance players to his wedding and generally stick his stupid face into everything in Cataclysm, right? Uh huh. Too bad Theramore takes place after the fall of Deathwing anyway. Even if it didn't, and Thrall really was busy, why wouldn't he just go dickslap Garrosh as soon as he was done?
    Now let's look at Aqua's response!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Too bad Theramore takes place after the fall of Deathwing anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Did you miss the part where they had to fix the damage DW did to the Maelstrom?
    No Aqua, I didn't miss it! In fact I had additional words in my post asking "Even if Thrall really was busy, why wouldn't he just go dickslap Garrosh as soon as he was done?" You seem to have missed them for some reason. It couldn't be that you didn't want to have to answer the question, could it? No, I'll bet that you just wanted to make the post shorter and happened to choose those words at random. That's what you'll try to tell me, right?

    Yeah.

    You have been brutally schooled in this argument. This bullshit you're doing where you desperately try to split the debate into little sets of one-liners in response to random sentences? I know no one ever admits to losing an argument on the internet, but this is what people do when they lose an argument on the internet.

    - - - - - - Updated - - - - - -

    One more kick before I peace out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Did you miss the part where the water elementals Jaina enslaved begged him to help them? And that it was preventing the Earthen Ring from repairing the Maelstrom? They were about to send a bunch of shaman to help the elementals, but Nobundo insisted that only Thrall go because he was the one the elementals contacted.
    With no one surviving the blast, Thrall believed that Jaina was killed. This unpleasant news caused Farseer Nobundo to inform Thrall that the Earthen Ring would understand if he were to go back to the Horde and that they could continue to heal the land with out him. Thrall knew that nothing was greater than healing the damage done by the Cataclysm and so remained, while remarking to himself that even if Jaina's ghost were to come to him and demand vengeance he would still reply no.

    Thrall didn't give a shit. Period. Jaina helped him kill her own father for the sake of peace, and when Garrosh nuked her entire city and maybe killed her, Thrall, even noble Thrall, just went "Welp, sucks to be those guys I guess!"

    But gosh, I don't know why Jaina seems really distrustful of the Horde! It's a mystery!
    Last edited by DeeTwelve; 2013-11-29 at 02:08 PM.

  19. #139
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Boy, he sure doesn't seem to have a hard time finding those! Of course that doesn't explain why no one in the Horde gave a fucking shit even after it happened.
    Tears ran down his muzzle, and he made no effort to wipe them away. He stood surrounded by throngs of cheering Horde, but as he looked around, he saw, illuminated by the ghostly arcane glow, faces that wore his own expression of shock and revulsion.
    --Tides of War

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Yeah, I was distracted by the fucking cutscene where Thrall says the "elements are rejoicing" and that "the cataclysm is over", all of which takes place before Theramore, and none of which excuses Thrall for just sticking his thumb up his ass and accepting the nuking of Theramore indefinitely.
    The members of the Earthen Ring—Nobundo, Rehgar, Muln Earthfury, and others—took each little sign to heart. Just as with healing an injured body, it would take time to heal Azeroth. But the elements would, eventually, recover—as long as the care was maintained throughout the lengthy and grueling process.
    ...
    Nobundo was saying that very thing as Thrall’s heavy heart turned to the conversation. “We are seeing progress. We cannot stop now—none of us.”
    ...
    Thrall closed his eyes for a long moment. He was grieving, shocked, furious. He wanted nothing more than to don armor, pick up the Doomhammer, and march on Orgrimmar. To punish Grom Hellscream’s son for all the foolish, arrogant, devastating things he had done. Garrosh was his mistake, his responsibility, and no one else’s. Thrall had tried to instill orcish pride in Garrosh, but instead of taking the best of his father’s lessons, the young Hellscream had taken the worst of them.
    But he could not go, could not satisfy his pain. Not yet. Even if Jaina Proudmoore’s ghost were to show up and cry for vengeance right this moment, he would have to tell her no.
    He lifted sad blue eyes to Nobundo and said, “I grieve. I am angry. But I am still called to be here. Nothing is greater than this duty, right now.
    No one spoke, not even Aggra. They all knew what the admission had cost him. Rehgar reached out and clapped Thrall on the shoulder.
    “We won’t let anyone, Horde or Alliance, who fell in this ill-conceived abomination die in vain. Let us honor them by what we do here. Let’s get back to work.”

    --Tides of War

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    So in other words you don't have any source for this imaginary little conspiracy of yours, you're just going on the fact that the Orgrimmar raid and Orgrimmar city don't match each other. Well la-dee-dah, what a revelation.
    It was a plot twist. It was supposed to be a surprise. Are you seriously suggesting that the Theramore prisoners, that had never been revealed in any canon up until then, were common knowledge to the people of Orgrimmar? The last citing of them in lore was escaping Theramore in a ship. Plus people dissenters have disappeared, never to be seen again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Well no shit, it's sort of hard to recruit people into an organization if they're not outside of it to start. I didn't imagine he walked up and down the streets of Orgrimmar asking confused orcs if they wanted to join the Horde.
    He certainly wasn't recruiting people from within the Horde to be his chosen elite when he picked up Malkorok.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    Source that they swore loyalty exclusively to Garrosh? More importantly, assuming they did, source that this is in any way unusual? The Warchief is, after all, essentially the entire Horde government. It's not like they have a constitution to swear by, is it?
    From Tides of War:
    “Tell me, do you know who this Malkorok is?”
    ...
    “He denounced his crimes in service to Rend an’ asked for amnesty. Garrosh be givin’ it to him, along wit’ any others who swear to serve him wit’ dere lives. Now da wahchief got a nice big dog wit’ sharp teeth ta protect him.”


    And:
    The Blackrock orc—Malkorok, Garrosh had named him—right behind Garrosh before even Eitrigg, before even the Kor’kron.

    Zaela completely bought into Garrosh' ideology and supports him completely. She's even going to Draenor with him in WoD.


    It's funny how you don't make a distinction between the Horde and the Warchief.
    Garrosh waited outside so that those who wished to take this opportunity to swear loyalty to him could do so more conveniently.
    ...
    “Out of all the leaders, save Gallywix—who is supportive merely because he sees coins to be made—you are the only one who doesn’t question your warchief. Not even when Sylvanas tries to play upon your sympathy. I respect that, elf. Know that your loyalty to me is duly noted.”
    “The Horde embraced and supported my people when no one else would,” Lor’themar replied. “I will not forget that. And so, my loyalty, and that of my people, is to the Horde.”
    Unease stirred in Garrosh as he noticed a slight emphasis on Lor’themar’s last word. “I am the Horde’s warchief, Lor’themar. And as such, I am the Horde.”
    “You are its warchief,” Lor’themar said, agreeing readily. “Is that all you wish of me? My people are anxious to return home and prepare for the war that is to come.”
    Lor’themar had said nothing inflammatory, but the unease did not dissipate as Garrosh regarded the sea of red and gold move toward the gates of Orgrimmar.
    “That one is worth watching,” he said to Malkorok.
    “They are ALL worth watching,” the Blackrock orc replied.

    --Tides of War

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeTwelve View Post
    What's more, who gives a fucking shit? You're not seriously going to suggest that the Tauren, the Blood Elves, the Forsaken, the Darkspear, the Goblins, and any non-fascist orcs were ALL held down and oppressed by... by... those fucking losers from LBRS and those retards who spent the first six years of the game being Alliance newbie punching bags in Wetlands? Jesus holy shit Christ, you're not making the Horde look better here man!
    “After we left Orgrimmar,” Vol’jin said, “some of da orcs dat were noddin’ dey heads when ol’ Eitrigg was talkin’ been kinda… absent.”
    Baine felt a jolt surge through him. “Garrosh is executing those who don’t agree with him?”
    “Not yet. Dem Kor’kron, especially dat gray-skinned one, they be walkin’ tru da streets jest waitin’ to overhear somethin’ they doan like. If they do—well, some dey arrest right on da spot. Some dey come for all quiet. Dat mushroom seller, he close shop for a few days. He come back lookin’ all beat-up, like he be in da wrong end of a fight. And some… dey doan come back at all.”
    “Political prisoners?”
    Vol’jin nodded. “We trolls be keepin’ our mouths shut.”
    Baine grunted. “Perhaps if Garrosh knew what the Kor’kron are up to… He is a hothead, but… surely he cannot be ordering this.”
    Vol’jin made a dismissive sound and waved a gangly arm in disgust. “No one gets to Garrosh. I hear dat even Eitrigg only sees him when Garrosh feels like it, and den dat boy surrounded by his big ol’ bodyguards. He be all, ‘Da Horde can do dis; da Horde can do dat.’ All confident, wit’out any reason for it. I can’t say for certain dat he knows what’s goin’ on. But I can’t say for certain dat he don’t. Either way… I be more scared of Orgrimmar these days dan de darkest voodoo.
    Then… there is no stopping him. No reaching him, no reasoning. And insanity abounds.
    “Dat’s about da size of it, mon.”

    --Tides of War

    Plus, the whole Mana Bomb thing. I'm sure nobody was scared of their people being eradicated like Theramore...
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-11-29 at 02:48 PM.

  20. #140
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    As nice as it would be to kill the witch, I doubt Blizzard will ever put their golden girl (platinum girl? Silver girl?) in that situation.

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