Raid Management Question - Player Benchmarking Suggestions

[Skullcrusher]

Hello All,

Currently my guild has had some issues with our progression due to player performance. We are also in the process of transitioning from being casual to a little more "hardcore" and were looking for ways to benchmark our current team (10 man) and in turn create standards for new recruits. For DPS it's easy with pages like icy-veins, tank spot, as well as other guides who can make suggestions on class specs/talents and what each DPS should be pulling in order to have a shot at a successful kill before hitting the enrage timer, given that people do the mechanics correctly.

My question to everyone here is, we were also looking for a way to also benchmark our hearlers as well as tanks. Apart from the obvious (for healers), "Are people dying?", "no", "ok we're good"... and tanks, "Do you get one shot by the boss"... are there any other ways that people could suggest that we make sure ALL of our players are on par? We do run logs for raids so we can see how each player is doing but, where it's easy to point out a low performing DPS, it seems harder enhance or make sure the tanks/healers are also where they should be. We've been squeeking by with "good enough" for awhile, and were just looking for some helpful suggestions.

Thanks in advance for help!

[Deleted]

Ask a player of the class they play to take a look at your logs. Most forum classes here have threads for it, and they can help telling you at what you should look to see whether they are pulling their weight or not.

[Spotnick]

If you are using world of logs, then raidbots is a good start

http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/

But remember your comp and strat weight a lot in the balance for those rankings.

The survivability tab of logs is also a good place to look at.

But to be honest, your raiders should do that themselves, and look at logs from top ranked and wonder what they are doing wrong.

[Saphyron]

Hello All,

Currently my guild has had some issues with our progression due to player performance. We are also in the process of transitioning from being casual to a little more "hardcore" and were looking for ways to benchmark our current team (10 man) and in turn create standards for new recruits. For DPS it's easy with pages like icy-veins, tank spot, as well as other guides who can make suggestions on class specs/talents and what each DPS should be pulling in order to have a shot at a successful kill before hitting the enrage timer, given that people do the mechanics correctly.

My question to everyone here is, we were also looking for a way to also benchmark our hearlers as well as tanks. Apart from the obvious (for healers), "Are people dying?", "no", "ok we're good"... and tanks, "Do you get one shot by the boss"... are there any other ways that people could suggest that we make sure ALL of our players are on par? We do run logs for raids so we can see how each player is doing but, where it's easy to point out a low performing DPS, it seems harder enhance or make sure the tanks/healers are also where they should be. We've been squeeking by with "good enough" for awhile, and were just looking for some helpful suggestions.

Thanks in advance for help!

The healing part is hard to determine cause some healers have easier time sniping heals thus getting higher on the meters. What I would look at is the healer dispelling what should be dispelled. is the healer ooming himself too fast does he have low healing but lots of overhealing it can mean he is just unlucky with getting his heals off.

With tanks it is easier. Are the healers complaining about keeping the tanks alive and how is his cd' management and what is his average damage intake per second.

Hope this helps a little.

As a former raid leader I myself had trouble figuring these things out.

[iDrunkenheal]

Healers are very difficult to determine performance and sometimes a play playing @ 90% of their classes potential will still do worse then one doing 30% of theirs (Disc priest t14 vs rdruids).

Things I look for are individual death logs. What was each healer doing as someone died. Just constantly look and make either a mental note or write it down and keep a tally. Was some dps slowly ticking down in health and the disc priest was just smiting but out of range? Was the resto shaman spamming chain heal on the melee? These are things you can tank into account. Also keeping track of how much they help with raid strats and how often they die are very important.

For dps I would be very careful just looking at raidbots and ranks. I would look at logs and see if the player was targeting the correct mobs while also keeping up high ranks. Also in my 10 man most of our dps would push the dps hard while 1-2 of the main dpsers would deal with most of the mechanics (kicking shells on tortos for example). Obviously the person having to constantly move to kick shells is going to do less then the others turrenting the boss.

For tanks death logs are very important. Did the tank just get a lack of heals? Did the tank not use his active mitigation very well? Was the tank not vocal about external cds? Also tank dps is very important in a 10 man. If both your tanks are pulling < 20% tiles your going to have a bad time.

All in all I would say come up with a list of questions for every time something goes wrong and go through them till you find the issue.

[clevin]

The healing part is hard to determine cause some healers have easier time sniping heals thus getting higher on the meters. What I would look at is the healer dispelling what should be dispelled. is the healer ooming himself too fast does he have low healing but lots of overhealing it can mean he is just unlucky with getting his heals off.

With tanks it is easier. Are the healers complaining about keeping the tanks alive and how is his cd' management and what is his average damage intake per second.

Hope this helps a little.

As a former raid leader I myself had trouble figuring these things out.

I'll second this. For healers, also look and see if anyone is VASTLY behind on HPS consistently (not just one fight or one night). HPS isn't the whole thing (neither is DPS for DPS players) but if one person is severely lagging that could be an issue. Of course, it could mean you're 3 healing a fight that should be 2 healed too.

There's also not really a substitute for a RL knowing what should be happening. If a player gets a debuff and *always* has to be told to move out of the raid vs another player who moves ASAP that's not something that easily shows on the meters... but the RL should note it. Same for people who die more than they should, etc. Some of this isn't under player control, some is. Also, everyone has off nights, so you need to see how people perform across several resets.

Be wary of using only data, though. It can be hard to spot the little stuff that people do that helps the raid even though it's not their main focus - interrupts, moving out of stuff quickly, dropping debuffs away from the raid, etc.

Finally, a question - WHY are you asking now? is there a problem? If everyone is on board with getting more hardcore (whatever that means for you) and you're progressing well, what's the issue?

[Felocity]

Hello All,

Currently my guild has had some issues with our progression due to player performance. We are also in the process of transitioning from being casual to a little more "hardcore" and were looking for ways to benchmark our current team (10 man) and in turn create standards for new recruits. For DPS it's easy with pages like icy-veins, tank spot, as well as other guides who can make suggestions on class specs/talents and what each DPS should be pulling in order to have a shot at a successful kill before hitting the enrage timer, given that people do the mechanics correctly.

My question to everyone here is, we were also looking for a way to also benchmark our hearlers as well as tanks. Apart from the obvious (for healers), "Are people dying?", "no", "ok we're good"... and tanks, "Do you get one shot by the boss"... are there any other ways that people could suggest that we make sure ALL of our players are on par? We do run logs for raids so we can see how each player is doing but, where it's easy to point out a low performing DPS, it seems harder enhance or make sure the tanks/healers are also where they should be. We've been squeeking by with "good enough" for awhile, and were just looking for some helpful suggestions.

Thanks in advance for help!

Outside of looking at dispells and survivability you can look at
http://www.raidbots.com/comparebot/
compare bot, find a top end player of the same class with a similar raid comp and see the breakdown in each ability.

Maybe in a fight with the same length your prot paladin only had 42 crusader strikes where a top end one had 70. It'll pretty much break down ability uses,damage break downs for each ability ect side by side with your raider and who ever you're comparing them too

Theres also a raid wide parse option thatll show you who didnt use healthstones and stuff @_@

[Smight]

When benchmarking healers, your discussion needs to involve them. Is healer 1 burdened by 2's style, for example. I'd start with forums - is the fight 2 or 3 healed. Ensure you can bring the proper number of healers without requiring excessive off-healing. From there, can your healers call out cooldowns as needed and use their own properly. It's nice when someone can pull a log from a kill and judge your raid's healing versus a successful kill - from there be able to push your healers to see what you've got.

I'd say you base an evaluation of healers on when you can ignore them. It's a fight by fight thing and a major benefit of feedback on forums. The OP isn't very clear of the exact level of raiding. I evaluate how healing is going in my guild working on blackfuse more stringently than I do when playing my alt in a guild that just got garrosh.

Tank edit:
Benchmarking tanks, I'd look for smooth damage curves when possible. Properly timed cooldowns play a role in that but a tank should have a basic idea of how he's going to rotate cooldowns during a fight. I'm sure something can be said for tank dps, but that all flows from doing a solid rotation anyway.