Anyone else Disappointed with our end game DPS?

[psyquest]

the only reason the warrs are 200k ahead is the extra 25 mill cheesing damage on the adds, these adds are purely just used for the aid in high ranks nothing more, you could of done at least 15-20 mill damage if you done some faithful cheesing also, if you compare dps on a more minimal movement fight like malkarok most of the dps are pretty close bar one or 2 players.

Some classes are a little more powerful compared to others but its mainly due to the boss encounter that benefits other classes more, on a normal fight no gimicks and similar gear level the dps variation will be around 10-15% which with the large numbers in damage is more than acceptable.

Celestalon said DK have no encounter where to shine this tier. It feels like a "we know, deal with it".

I have been playing since Vanilla non stop, I know every class in game. Everyone should have strenght and weaknesses. Currently frost DKs, THE cleave class (look up howling blast) is being destroyed by others very easily. DPS on adds is no cheezing when it is required for an encounter, more so if the adds not dieing is a wipe. So reading you it feels like: hey warriors are ahead because they have a strong aoe they use on some non required dps that is not important and your class sucks so it does not matter.

Time for me to cool off, sorry to have bothered you.

[kenn9530]

Celestalon said DK have no encounter where to shine this tier. It feels like a "we know, deal with it".

I have been playing since Vanilla non stop, I know every class in game. Everyone should have strenght and weaknesses. Currently frost DKs, THE cleave class (look up howling blast) is being destroyed by others very easily. DPS on adds is no cheezing when it is required for an encounter, more so if the adds not dieing is a wipe. So reading you it feels like: hey warriors are ahead because they have a strong aoe they use on some non required dps that is not important and your class sucks so it does not matter.

Time for me to cool off, sorry to have bothered you.

the aoe cheesing on general is avoidable from the faithful adds as these can be despawned prior to starting the boss properly if you read the log provided the warr at the top has 25 mill damage from these add which are purely just used on the first pull for ranking purposes, on other fights like malkarok the dk is above the middle of the pack and only a few dps are much more thatn 20-30k dps ahead.

Yes some classes are much better than dk but its mostly a matter of scaling at these high ilvl and massive stat numbers where other classes benefit much better. In WOD these numbers will be small again so balancing in theory should be much better and also the chance to tweak the classes for the next expansion.

All classes are currently viable for all heroic modes, yes some encounters may prove a little more difficult with bringing in classes with a little less dps/utility but its still more than doable, another thing is QQn gets players nowhere as blizz take their sweet time doing anything so its a matter of fact that most of the time you have to either live with your class currently or reroll to something either a little better or useful.

[Shiira]

the only reason the warrs are 200k ahead is the extra 25 mill cheesing damage on the adds

No, they're still 100k ahead if you ignore add damage.

Some classes are a little more powerful compared to others but its mainly due to the boss encounter that benefits other classes more, on a normal fight no gimicks and similar gear level the dps variation will be around 10-15% which with the large numbers in damage is more than acceptable.

Last week I was within 20% of the top dps on one boss. No, it's not a learn to play issue.

People like you are why stuff like this doesn't get fixed.

Celestalon said DK have no encounter where to shine this tier.

Celestalon is wrong.

In theory protectors, sha of pride, galakras, nazgrim, malkorok, spoils and garrosh are all good fights for us.

In practise it doesn't matter. We are behind because our dps is bad, not because of the encounters.

[Schizoide]

Scaling, eh? Ridiculed by blizz officials, and it only effects at high itemleves, doing HC bosses. Just how many players got affected by this? By percentage of the DKs? A very small amount. The "mass" of the DKs are just fine, even overperforming.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/

DKs are rock bottom in normal modes too. This performance gap is not limited to heroic raiders.

There's no clear indication it's a scaling problem, which is the gist of what Celestalon was trying to point out in 140 chars. But it is a problem. No need for a revamp, particularly in the middle of an expansion. A numbers buff would do nicely.

[Shiira]

There's no clear indication it's a scaling problem,

It is though, we both know this. The problem is demonstrating that the issue is scaling with a method that blizzard will accept.

[Deleted]

the only reason the warrs are 200k ahead is the extra 25 mill cheesing damage on the adds, these adds are purely just used for the aid in high ranks nothing more, you could of done at least 15-20 mill damage if you done some faithful cheesing also, if you compare dps on a more minimal movement fight like malkarok most of the dps are pretty close bar one or 2 players.

Some classes are a little more powerful compared to others but its mainly due to the boss encounter that benefits other classes more, on a normal fight no gimicks and similar gear level the dps variation will be around 10-15% which with the large numbers in damage is more than acceptable.

Everyone should know by now that no matter how much QQ happens on im too weak, other classes are too strong nothing happens or it takes so long for blizz to do anything anyway, every class currently is viable for all encounters at heroic level so ppl need to stop QQn and either reroll if your unhappy with your dps or accept the fact some classes can be higher dps.

We care because we like our class but not its output in high end gear. If you are a good player and want to contribute to your Guild you do care for sure. I love people compete with DPS and Always strive to be better thats make this game fun. This is why we have people raising there voices and tell something is wrong we cant compete in any fight even if you have a fight that benefit us with adds and alot of cleave.

Funny thing is that you are the one here QQ and just try to shut down people. we Have a problem with our class and people like you wont contribute to something better. We talk our end game dps here and thats what people do and if thats a problem for you well then read and bite a pillow.

[Deleted]

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/

DKs are rock bottom in normal modes too. This performance gap is not limited to heroic raiders.

There's no clear indication it's a scaling problem, which is the gist of what Celestalon was trying to point out in 140 chars. But it is a problem. No need for a revamp, particularly in the middle of an expansion. A numbers buff would do nicely.

Well... i nthis case, my speculation was plain wrong. Did not checked any parses, only remebered our "normal" progress.

[Stacie]

Finding my DPS low compared to others. (had almost the exact same people raiding 25man for a few years now.) But yeah this patch/tier we are defiantly behind the other class's. It's kind of a joke most class's can use all 3 specs and still do as close dps as a DK or more in all 3.

Anyway WoW is a yoyo i am sure it will change next tier and someone else will be bottom. They need to buff at least one of the DK specs this tier imo the difference in DPS is not huge but its able to be noticed.

[Darkfriend]

Take a step back and look at the issue again. Scaling, eh? Ridiculed by blizz officials, and it only effects at high itemleves, doing HC bosses. Just how many players got affected by this? By percentage of the DKs? A very small amount. The "mass" of the DKs are just fine, even overperforming.

Its simply not worth the effort, the amount of work, to compoletely rewamp the class, for a fraction of the the playerbase of the classs. Especially, not before expansion.

Still, i have hopes in the expansion, but i will keep my gunpowder dry.

Balancing classes around how well bad players perform is a poor design philosophy.

[Schizoide]

Balancing classes around how well bad players perform is a poor design philosophy.

Balancing around player performance is the correct design philosophy. This includes both elite players and casuals, PvE and PvP.

[Gabbynator]

i dont think they could do something atm if they buff frost they would be strong in pvp and people will qq about rbgs.Fixing scaling will be only happen in 6.0 and just looking gear without haste on it and try to get Readiness, Amplify, and Multi-strike.My guess is to get mastery,multi-strike,amplify for dw frost.

[Shiira]

Cooldown reduction for frost, huh.

Do you know something I don't?

[Taninsam]

i dont think they could do something atm if they buff frost they would be strong in pvp and people will qq about rbgs.

They've showed in the past they can slightly alter things specifically for PvP. If they won't do it for PvE is just because they don't think it's needed. Period.

[Raikh]

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...14/60/default/

DKs are rock bottom in normal modes too. This performance gap is not limited to heroic raiders.

There's no clear indication it's a scaling problem, which is the gist of what Celestalon was trying to point out in 140 chars. But it is a problem. No need for a revamp, particularly in the middle of an expansion. A numbers buff would do nicely.

It can be proven or rather be heavily indicated pretty much. The problem is the definition of scaling. If you can twist the meaning of a word you can create an improvable situation which makes arguments seem hollow.
So lets call it growth (in output-strength thorugh increasing stats/gear) then.
I've explained the current situation in the "why bring a dk dps to a 10man group" thread in a few big posts which are basically containing the arguments/indications for our growth problem.

Growth is influenced by the effect of secondary stats (crit/haste/mastery) on our abilities and str/ap/int/sp are basic modificators to lineary increase the dmg of respective abilities out of the multiplicative secondary stats(crit/haste/mastery). Hit and expertise are also multiplicative stats but work as a basic thing like str/ap/int/sp as they "deactivate" resource loss without them being used to deal dmg, those resources are gcds or class specific resources (mana/energy/rage etc.) so in fact dmg.
Weapons serve as the base to growth through gear as they provide basically ap and sp (ap for weapon dmg abilities atleast) so are additive to those main stats.

Secondary stats are multiplicators to that base and especially here growth kicks in. All abilities/dmg sources grow in power in a way with sp/ap some more some less but all are affected anyway.
Thats not the deal for secondary stats though and some are even doubledipping and also the interaction of those stats and effects of them with each other play an important role.
I will put it short here as this was the main focus in my greater posts in the other thread.
Crit increases every dmg source and only has a basic reduced effect on guaranteed cirt procs (killing machine).
Crit is double dipping if it procs some sort of additional dmg(freecasts, cd reduction,increased dmg), because it grants more dmg through the crit itself and also grants additional dmg thorugh having an additional gain to that.
Haste increases the dmg of everything that can be used more often through it, so abilities without a fix cooldown or abilities used by the cost of regenerative resources whose regeneration is increased by haste are affected. Its double dipping if there are procs which occur more often and are triggered by already affected abilities (example: caster dot procs, and old rppm)
Mastery is spec specific and affects mostly core aspects of the spec, its behavior is very dependant on what the mastery is and usually does not affect all abilities of a spec. (like frost mastery does not affect oblit)

So and also we have the synergy between those stats itself: If crits of dots enable procs dealing more dmg and haste affects how often that dot ticks it also increases the number of procs and even possibly the dmg granted by that proc.
So they increase each other in vlaue aside from them affecting higher dmg anyway.
Moonkin dots work/worked that way for example.
Fire mage combustion works that way,too.

The other way round:
Haste increases the number of procs granting a free crit (killing machine says hi).
So in fact haste lowers the value of crit as we can make less use out of it as some of the abilities crit anyway.

SO if there is no special rule affecting that for example the dot proccing crits doesn't deal extra dmg while critting or crit % is added as crit dmg for guaranteed crits it is unavoidable that the spec with double dipping secondary stats will grow more with more stats than the other spec without or even with negative synergy.

Now comes base dmg into play again which is of course different for each spec. But that base dmg is a base and so it doesn't affect growth as specific as secondary stats do. Its completely linear and is increasing for each spec with the same pace indefinetly and being multiplied by secondary stats which results in the real difference in growth.
Output can be therefore be reduced or increased by increasing/reducing base dmg (flat dmg buffs/nerfs to abilities) but will grow by the same pace again just on a different standard.

Finally, how do we see that in-game/in simulations/in logs? If a class A is in the exact same situation as Class B but with A being ahead by base dmg(very low gear standard) and being overtaken by Class B throughout the content with increasing gear standard Class B grows better than A.
More specific if the gap between A and B grows percentually its also a difference in growth.

If with every Patch a Class gets buffed by remarkable amounts it means that that class lacks in growth and needs higher base dmg to compensate.

If a class can't "shine" on basically every thinkable fight scenario without putting other classes in really heavy disadvantage thats due to the lack of double dipping of secondary stats or other exponentially increasing behaviors through class/spec specific mechanics meaning less growth with gear in fact.
Which says that a class without double dipping/exponentially increasing mechanics/stats can't possibly "shine" on any fight scenario.

For the definition of shine here: Shine means that a class has a mechanic which results in a very high and possibly exponential increase in output in comparison while following an optimized strategy, which means it excludes padding(unnecessary dmg, taking away dmg from others without general benefit).
SO for example multidotting Megaera is padding, if it does not increase ST dmg, while multidotting Fallen protectors is always a gain.
Dealing with bats on tortos alone thorugh kiting or having the solely best and most passive AoE optimizing the dmg on the boss itself while handling the adds in time is not necessarily padding.
Pulling out all cooldowns on reflections on Sha of Pride or dealing with them alone actively while they would die through passive cleave or through the dots of classes gaining ST benefits from it while the reflections are causing no problem for the raid and would only reduce boss dps would be padding.

That being said boss fight siuations, calling it environment now, can be considered modificators to base dmg and secondary stats, if a spec doesn't grow well to begin with it won't get any better thorugh environment, the standard again changes, not the growth.

Not to shine goes hand in hand with possible growth issues or is total design failure on either the raid side or the class side. Saying that the reason is that a class doesn't shine this content but is good itself while having all the indications mentioned above is a horrible and hollow argument and tends to be entirely wrong.

If the here explained observations, explanations and arguments are no indication of growth issues for Dks(more forst than unholy, unholy is more the weapon thing with low base dmg) we could also say that if a class deals 10 times the dmg of all others while being immortal and super fast while bringing all raid support availabe in every possible situation is no indication of it being over powered.

I will give further examples, explanations and can be more dk specific on demand but for this time the post is long enough and too long anyway.

[Schizoide]

You described quite a few of the obstacles making it difficult to prove a scaling issue. The trick is to then surmount those obstacles and prove it.

[SSHA778]

What is interesting is that one of our community, find it amusing that DKs are complaining about their dps.

Yet looking at the profile of this DK, namely Magdalena I find it strange that this person does not rally behind the other DKs.

Fact:
Most of the DK community cannot reach Thek analysis of a class to prove to people like Celestalon that we need a buff.

A lot of people playing a DK, know their class inside out, are extremely capable players and notice when there is something afoot.

A lot of people cant bring in the math and ask for a buff, they rely on their experience in game to convey an issue.

Dismissing people for asking for someone at blizzard to do something by using the word "scaling" or what not, would be a poor judgement call for blizzard.

There is no requirement that Magdalena rallies behind other DKs, regardless of performance--just like there was no requirement that I write a sim for Beta (with the generous help of a few testers along the way) and use it for research / data analysis to share those results with other DKs. It was a deliberate choice on my behalf that I made every day.

There is nothing exotic to the math and mechanics behind the class. For DKs, all you need is algebra and, primarily, time to think about what the mechanics are actually doing and how to represent them mathematically. I understand that math scares plenty of people, but that is no excuse to avoid it entirely. Perhaps you really don't even need to do any math to prove the point that you want to make, but you need an approach (several is better), and you'll need to prove the validity of that approach (or those approaches).

In order to get what you want, sometimes you just have to risk failing. It's not marvelous when it happens, and it never will be. You may also just plain not get what you want. But if you're focused on the potential of failure and not the goal, you'll never even lift a foot--in essence, already having failed.

There is nothing wrong with logs. There is nothing wrong with RaidBots. There is nothing wrong with sims. There is nothing wrong with analytical solutions. There is nothing wrong with experience. There is nothing wrong with concepts. Where the issue arises is in how they are used to support a claim. Each method has its assumptions. Each method has its flaws. Each method has its strengths. Each method cannot be freely interchanged with the others. Each method needs to be justified properly. Throwing all of them in there just to hit all of the checklist doesn't make what is said any better.

If you cannot justify the method, then the results from that method, although pretty, are meaningless. Why do you think there is so much disagreement in this thread? Results are thrown around carelessly and expected to be believed by virtue of the fact that there are numbers in there somewhere. It doesn't work that way.

[Brozooka]

There were 0 DKs in the Top 20 that played Unholy for progression. Sure it's viable on farm where damage doesn't matter, but if your guild isn't killing 14/14H every week there is no reason you shouldn't be playing Frost.

I know this post is old but both of methods dks played unholy for most of progression.

[Brozooka]

I personally started the progress as Unholy (because I was lazy after toT and first bosses didn't matter anyway). It was not *that* bad tbh but Frost was still better, no doubt about that. Saw a major difference when I respecced to Frost (which I did on Malkorok iirc). Infeh/Raziee might have done the progress as Unholy but I can't figure out a single reason as to why, cause 2H Frost was way stronger in every way.

I didn't mean to imply that Unholy was on equal ground to frost when it's definitely not. I'm just not sure I agree with looking at a select group of raiders like the top 20 and making claims that something isn't "viable" when by definition it clearly is.

[Shiira]

Unholy is actually slightly ahead of frost overall, although we still need more data for a few bosses.

The biggest weakness unholy has in this tier is sharing gear with warriors, and that's a lot less relevant now that a lot of guilds are done with progress.

[Deleted]

I don't see it. Unholy DKs have still to fight Frost 2h spec and lose.