Anyone else Disappointed with our end game DPS?

[Schizoide]

Exactly right. Every class needs at least one spec in the middle of the pack. DKs and priests do not have that right now.

[Shiira]

On what basis are you implying that we have a shitty dps?

My basis for this argument is your belief that frost burst is strong. This can't be based on fact, so it must be based on anecdotal data from your own raids.

Our burst as frost isn't strong. It isn't even above average. The other dps in your guild are doing something wrong.

If you're better than the rest of your guild that's fine, but you have to understand that your parses don't represent overall class balance.

Yes, we have utility.

So does everyone else. Chillblains and aoe grip are nice for mines at siegecrafter, so is ring of frost. Anti magic zone is the best cooldown in the game when you can use it, rallying cry is good all the time and demo banner is good a lot of the time. Warlock portals are extremely useful for moving people around. All of these are coming from classes that outperform us significantly.

[Deleted]

You seem to have difficulty comprehending that your personal experiences, while important to you, mean nothing in the overall scale. Just because YOU are doing well in YOUR raid, with YOUR guild, doesn't mean that DKs are good overall. When the best geared DKs, in the most progressed guilds, with highly skilled players at every position, are getting wrecked damage wise, there is a problem. Its great that you don't see the problem in your raid/guild, but that isn't indicative of anything really. The person you quoted is in the 8th-ranked guild in the world; you can be reasonably assured that people in that guild are doing everything right and if a problem exists at that level it means there is a problem with class.

I don't think many people here expect DKs to be on the same level as the pussy wizards. They are treated different by Blizzard, and if we were on their level a nerf would indeed be coming. The problem is that we don't have a spec that is "in the middle", like all the other classes that aren't at warlock/mage levels.

I am assured, and told already twice that its my personal experience and not a _fact_ And im trying to see more than just the dps here. Maybe failing in pointing out my mind. Maybe bursting over 1M dps is low to some?
As you said Skarssen, some specs/classes are getting whole lotta of love compared to DKs. Been like that ever since player base started to complain about "hero-class"

[Shiira]

Since you mentioned burst damage and cleave, here's the first 18 seconds of this week's garrosh kill.



I could be aoeing harder, but there's not a huge amount of point when so many other specs are just clearly better at it.

[Iysdexia]

Nothing about being a DK is appealing currently besides the rediculously easy playstyle that is DW frost. The only way to not play the spec to an almost near-optimal performance is to not utilize every global cooldown and/or not utilize ams soaking. The sheer fact that I don't have to think while playing this spec is what keeps me playing; that and the fact that I'm the best DK in the world.

So now that you know that I'm better than you, you should believe me when I tell you that being a DK is awful now, and for the most part has always been that way. Other classes do everything we can, except better. Way better. Better burst, better cleave, better AoE, better utility. We have no redeeming qualities that make us anything more than a little less shitty. There is no reason currently to bring a DK if you are looking for the most optimal raid.

[Deleted]

DK's lack 2 things I believe are essentially to making a class fun to play:

The first is a sense of progressions as our gear improves, it feels like we are running to stand still the whole time and if you get lucky early in the tier with drops/coins you sit around for weeks hardly improving whilst everyone around you is going up in leaps and bounds. Yeah we actually tend to start off pretty good and are decent during progression but their is little incentive to keep playing when it feels like you are going backwards all the time.

The second is in the absence of unholy being viable we are left with the abhorrently low skill cap that is frost, differences in performance over a number of pulls are far more likely to be caused by unlucky trinket procs etc rather than player error. Even a significant deviation from the optimal rotation produced very little difference in end result. When i play my Aff-Lock after every fight I can think of areas i could have improved upon and things I could have tried differently which motivates me to play better.

[Ryve]

It takes one person to be a good player. It takes 10-25 people to be a good raid group.

Having 9-24 other good players around you isn't a test of personal skill, but group skill. Him choosing to play casually with friends doesn't mean he can't compete as far as DPS goes.

For instance, if someone left Method to play casually are you suggesting that their skill level would drop because they're no longer progressing? They'd still be just as good, they just wouldn't be surrounded by other players at the same skill level to help them progress.

Exceptional players can make a lot of difference to a raid group. I used to guild hop a lot with 3 friends on our raiding alts. We'd join a guild struggling with progression on normal modes, and by having in depth knowledge of every class and spec between the four of us and taking time to help others, we'd end up leaving the guilds making strong heroic raiding progression while raiding the same hours they had been before. It makes a tremendous amount of difference when you take DPS who were doing 75% of what is possible and bring it up to 95% and get everyone looking out for mechanics and subsequently more aware of their surroundings, not just the designated leaders barking orders.

Of course you need to have players who are open to the idea of improving, there's not much you can do for a DK doing 80% of the DPS they should if they think they're fantastic, particularly when they have one of the best DKs in the world in this thread taking the time out to ask them why they're doing so many weird things with their toon.

Of course evening out the outliers from the other end of the spectrum is fine too, but this is the death knight forum. It's easier to discuss why we are behind than why several specs are ahead, and reigning them in without changing us would just result in us looking overpowered in the first tier of next expansion.

Or you could just come to terms with the fact that there always have been outliers and then, ignoring them, accept that the spec isn't looking all that bad. After all, if every spec was doing the same damage the outliers, you could 9/23 man progression fights. That, or they'd increase boss health to accomodate the larger overall numbers making the entire exercise meaningless.

[Skarssen]

Or you could just come to terms with the fact that there always have been outliers and then, ignoring them, accept that the spec isn't looking all that bad.

Which we could do if we had a spec that was "in the middle of the pack". The problem is both our specs ARE outliers...........on the back end. Forget warlocks and mages; we will never be at their level. Blizzard just doesn't want DKs there. But it would be nice if we had a spec that could at least be competitive with retribution, fury, enhancement, balance, etc.

[Shiira]

Define "isn't looking all that bad".

How far behind do you think we can be without it being a problem?

[Kronik85]

Define "isn't looking all that bad".

How far behind do you think we can be without it being a problem?

It's not a problem though is it? Demoralising, penis shrinking and thoroughly shit I can agree with, but an actual problem? Not really, I would define a problem as losing your spot, we had plenty of QQ so far but I don't think anyone has been forced into retirement yet, correct me I'm wrong though and some one did get retired (benching yourself doesn't count).

I also found this on the Warlock forums:

Don't expect any overall dps nerfs. We are pure class and we will be top, maybe behind fire mages now but we need to be close to top to be viable. Could maybe see Shadowburn getting nerfed (strongest execute in game by miles) with added bonus like 50% damage on next incinerate to not make it worse than CB. Gateway will stay, in fact it could even get more/infinite charges so single lock will provide raid-wide support, 60sec debuff is main limitation (I hate this spell... so much prepull preparation, disappears and roots us in area, like teleport wasn't enough), so will Healthstones, because of the ->20 man raid change you are expected to have at least one lock in raid (though could see maybe cooking making Cupcake stand, 3 charges restoring 15% hp each and sharing cd?). Affliction will most likely need a huge buff to work after taking away dot snapshot. Wish WoL didn't track overkill in damage so we could see how OP 'really' are Destro, because I suspect if you take out SB fluff damage that we aren't best dps at all, though with superior survivality (we lost 10% passive Fel Armor and then get Glyph that gives us this back, really smart move).

Poor locks indeed lol.

[Schizoide]

You don't see a lot of that kind of entitlement from warlocks. Hunters, on the other hand, are infamous for it. If they aren't in the top 5 they throw a fit.

I just want to be in the middle of the pack.

[Dossou]

The second is in the absence of unholy being viable we are left with the abhorrently low skill cap that is frost, differences in performance over a number of pulls are far more likely to be caused by unlucky trinket procs etc rather than player error. Even a significant deviation from the optimal rotation produced very little difference in end result. When i play my Aff-Lock after every fight I can think of areas i could have improved upon and things I could have tried differently which motivates me to play better.

Implying Unholy has a higher skill-cap than Frost.

It really doesn't, I don't know why people keep saying it does.

[foonkinator]

Does anyone know How much the 4pc for Frost is worth ? On my last garrosh kill it only did 4.2million dmg which was about 2 % . Is it worth switching Heroic or Warforge pieces in to break the 4pc?

[Ryve]

Which we could do if we had a spec that was "in the middle of the pack". The problem is both our specs ARE outliers...........on the back end. Forget warlocks and mages; we will never be at their level. Blizzard just doesn't want DKs there. But it would be nice if we had a spec that could at least be competitive with retribution, fury, enhancement, balance, etc.

DK specs are right in the middle group among specs that are all close together. Stop making shit up to justify your unreasonable demands.

[Shiira]

DK specs are right in the middle group among specs that are all close together.

[SirTolomay]

That's 100% untrue. If Unholy was viable than people would have played it on progression having just come out of a tier where Unholy was superior.

I'm basing my sample on Top 20 World Heroic Raiding DKs, not DKs that started heroics last week.

There were 0 DKs in the Top 20 that played Unholy for progression. Sure it's viable on farm where damage doesn't matter, but if your guild isn't killing 14/14H every week there is no reason you shouldn't be playing Frost.

Attitudes such as "Oh it's only a little behind" are fucking retarded and you should stick to casual raiding and leave your opinions out of people asking for advice on increasing their DPS.

If you're casual raiding, nobody gives a shit about your DPS.



edit

For those complaining about the Norushen log, here's my Iron Jugg from a few weeks ago compared to his.

Mine - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-46...?s=5395&e=5712 - 321k DPS - 5:17 Kill
His - http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2p...?s=4609&e=4884 - 268k DPS - 4:34 Kill

That a good enough log link to prove OP just has a skill issue?

Hmm i have looked over both of your fight rankings and to be honest the fights that you both play the same spec he outranks you so how are you calling him a baddie?

[Skarssen]

DK specs are right in the middle group among specs that are all close together. Stop making shit up to justify your unreasonable demands.

Making shit up huh?

Raidbots, 25man heroic, all parses, 90th percentile

Immersius:
frost = 11th
unholy = not enough parses

Protectors:
frost = 18th
unholy = 12th

Norushen:
frost = 13th
unholy = 11

Sha:
frost = 19th (last)
unholy = 11th

Galakras:
frost = 17th
unholy = 19th (next to last)

IJ:
frost = 18th
unholy = 10th

Shaman:
frost = 19th (last)
unholy = 18th

Nazgrim:
frost = 18th (next to last)
unholy - 17th

Malkorok:
frost = 16th
unholy =12th

Spoils:
frost = 9th
unholy = 14th

Thok:
frost = 20th (last)
unholy = 19th

Overall:
frost = 20th (last)
unholy = 19th

So, no, we aren't "right in the middle". Maybe YOU should stop making shit up.

[Deleted]

DK specs are right in the middle group among specs that are all close together. Stop making shit up to justify your unreasonable demands.

Bet you aren't playing dk as a main or your raid team doesn't have a dk at all.( Or you have a frost/unholy, just you are all under geared compared to him)
Dk's are far from middle, we are at the end, worst of all( ok maybe not, but nearly )

[Ryve]

More bullshit. Remove the top 4 specs, look at the total variation between the remainder. All of those specs are within an acceptable margin of each other. Otherwise the "needs buffs" group in this case is almost entirely second,third dps specs. As it should be.

You people wouldn't care if there was 1% between the top and bottom spec, if you were the full 1% below top you'd be screaming for buffs.

[Schizoide]

@Ryve: Spec score can't be used to directly indicate variance in that manner. I suggest you read about it on the raidbots site. Unless you're just trolling, of course, in which case carry on.

Overall DPS can be used to find variance, but it isn't great for balance purposes as it exaggerates performance in individual fights, like fire on Alysrazor back in Cataclysm. That said, lets put that aside and take a look.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/30/default/

Lets go ahead and eliminate the top 3, affliction, combat, and arcane, as they are outliers that clearly deserve nerfs. The number 4 by overall DPS is arms, which is a great example why spec score is better than overall DPS, but we're going with it, right? Anyway, the variance between arms at 316.5k and the top DK spec at 285k DPS is 11%.

Now whether you think 11% is an acceptable degree of variance is completely up to you. That's a subjective opinion.

Personally, if the variance is less than 5% I'm cool with it. But this is just over double that. And remember, that's after discarding the top 3 specs, assuming they're going to be nerfed-- but it's several months into the patch and there's no sign of the devs touching even affliction.