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  1. #1

    Ret Seems Pretty Terrible

    So I've tried Ret in PvP, Warlock main, and I have noticed that the spec plays like shit. The burst is mediocre, both my DK and Warrior alts have much higher burst, the self heals are terrible (25 - 30k FoL and only being able to do it 3 times in a row while bubbled), between CDs the damage potential seems to be the lowest of any of the classes I've played, there just seems to be nothing going for the spec. It seems based around group utility, which is fairly bad as you could just bring a Holy Paladin and gain the same utility. It also doesn't help that it seems to be that Ret is completely incapable of doing anything alone, if you're the last one alive in arena and are fighting almost any other class played by an equally skilled player, you lose.

    Is it just me or is Ret one of, if not the, weakest spec for PvP in game? There just seems to be nothing going for it.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  2. #2
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    It isn't just you, ret is pretty awful in PvP.
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  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Snakez's Avatar
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    While I agree that ret is awful, there is just no way their burst is "mediocre"

  4. #4
    Ret is pretty bad but their burst is insane. You're right about most things but absolutely not that.

  5. #5
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    It sounds like you're doing it wrong.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Snakez View Post
    While I agree that ret is awful, there is just no way their burst is "mediocre"
    I meant it more as comparatively to DKs and Warriors. On my DK I'm seeing upwards of 100k+ oblits, on my Ret (Greivious Weapon [40% PvP power]) I'm seeing 70 - 80k.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    I meant it more as comparatively to DKs and Warriors. On my DK I'm seeing upwards of 100k+ oblits, on my Ret (Greivious Weapon [40% PvP power]) I'm seeing 70 - 80k.
    rets mastery is why

  8. #8
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    Retribution isn't bad, its literally never been bad. It's literally the fact that most Rets I've either known or faced play the spec completely wrong. They play Ret like its a Warrior where all they do is deal damage every single gcd and always feel like they need to have 100% uptime on a target. Most of them don't understand how to abuse their active defensive tool kit at all or apply their utility to their team mates.

    I meant it more as comparatively to DKs and Warriors. On my DK I'm seeing upwards of 100k+ oblits, on my Ret (Greivious Weapon [40% PvP power]) I'm seeing 70 - 80k.
    You cannot balance hybrid melee by giving them comparable damage to tunnel bot classes like DK's and Warriors. Otherwise, it'll completely negate both of those classes in high level pvp. Ret sustained damage is intended to be lower or else it fucks over DK's and Warriors completely.
    Last edited by Rorke; 2013-12-01 at 12:57 PM.

  9. #9
    DKs and warriors are hybrids too...


    I am normally not very impressed with arguments like "yea this spec is low rated, it's because everyone who plays it is bad". If the spec really shined at high levels of play, you would see it all over the place.

    Ret is far ahead of many other specs, of course. But I do think it needs help in the current meta. It's hard to compare with warriors on the table though.

  10. #10
    I haven't seen rets in bgs for weeks. I see one every now and then but NOT like there used to be. They all rerolled warriors. We will see more rets when warriors get nerfed. Warriors always get nerfed. Even when they don't need it.

  11. #11
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    DKs and warriors are hybrids too...


    I am normally not very impressed with arguments like "yea this spec is low rated, it's because everyone who plays it is bad". If the spec really shined at high levels of play, you would see it all over the place.

    Ret is far ahead of many other specs, of course. But I do think it needs help in the current meta. It's hard to compare with warriors on the table though.
    DK's and Warriors are not hybrids in pvp. People bring them for damage and they're only good when their damage is overpowered. Name one season that Warriors and DK's are fotm not because of their damage. You can't.

    You don't need to "buy" any of my arguments because my entire post was a confirmation bias. From my experiences, most Retribution paladins are bad players or don't know how to play it effectively. They come onto these forums and complain all the time to the point where I can't stand anyone who plays Retribution. They act like the spec is completely useless, when its not.

    I personally don't want Ret to get any help because its impossible to balance. It's better off being a random bg 1v1 spec over high rated arena play. Buffing Retribution also promotes melee cleaves, something nobody actually enjoys playing or going up against.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    It's better off being a random bg 1v1 spec over high rated arena play.
    Not even that. Any ww monk, warlock, spriest, hunter who has some clue will beat you in 1v1. Off the top of my mind, there may be more

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    DK's and Warriors are not hybrids in pvp. People bring them for damage and they're only good when their damage is overpowered. Name one season that Warriors and DK's are fotm not because of their damage. You can't.

    You don't need to "buy" any of my arguments because my entire post was a confirmation bias. From my experiences, most Retribution paladins are bad players or don't know how to play it effectively. They come onto these forums and complain all the time to the point where I can't stand anyone who plays Retribution. They act like the spec is completely useless, when its not.

    I personally don't want Ret to get any help because its impossible to balance. It's better off being a random bg 1v1 spec over high rated arena play. Buffing Retribution also promotes melee cleaves, something nobody actually enjoys playing or going up against.
    This. Ret works. It isn't as Mongo as warrior, but it is not supposed to be. The idea is to burst, survive, burst. I find that ret is much more viable than warrior in a variety of circumstances and far more able to survive.

    When I BG on my ret, I usually end up on top of damage done and killing blows, just by not playing like a warrior. Is ret R1 viable? I think it is if you pair it up with a high pressure cc class that can maximize ret's cd window...because, let's be honest...ret's burst with SW/HA up is pretty damn retarded.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    DKs and warriors are hybrids too...


    I am normally not very impressed with arguments like "yea this spec is low rated, it's because everyone who plays it is bad". If the spec really shined at high levels of play, you would see it all over the place.

    Ret is far ahead of many other specs, of course. But I do think it needs help in the current meta. It's hard to compare with warriors on the table though.
    DKs and warriors can't offheal while in dps spec and gear
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Giiggity View Post
    This. Ret works. It isn't as Mongo as warrior, but it is not supposed to be. The idea is to burst, survive, burst. I find that ret is much more viable than warrior in a variety of circumstances and far more able to survive.

    When I BG on my ret, I usually end up on top of damage done and killing blows, just by not playing like a warrior. Is ret R1 viable? I think it is if you pair it up with a high pressure cc class that can maximize ret's cd window...because, let's be honest...ret's burst with SW/HA up is pretty damn retarded.
    The only survivability Ret has is against casters but one of those CD are if you are about to burst and someone silences you (which is like a 2nd way to disarm a Ret as HoW is our strongest ability).
    Also, to put it out there, Ret IS 2k+ viable, but the problem is that any comp that sees a Ret getting over 2k (Ret/War/Healer, for example) are only bringing said Ret for a utility that can be brought by a Holy Paladin. The ONLY reason Ret/War/Healer is good is because Warriors with Hand of Freedom are even more overpowered than they are already.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    DK's and Warriors are not hybrids in pvp. People bring them for damage and they're only good when their damage is overpowered. Name one season that Warriors and DK's are fotm not because of their damage. You can't.

    You don't need to "buy" any of my arguments because my entire post was a confirmation bias. From my experiences, most Retribution paladins are bad players or don't know how to play it effectively. They come onto these forums and complain all the time to the point where I can't stand anyone who plays Retribution. They act like the spec is completely useless, when its not.

    I personally don't want Ret to get any help because its impossible to balance. It's better off being a random bg 1v1 spec over high rated arena play. Buffing Retribution also promotes melee cleaves, something nobody actually enjoys playing or going up against.
    There's so many flaws in your argument, it's ridiculous.
    1) They aren't hybrids, but they can sure as hell heal themselves while both having better defensives and ability to put a constant pressure. Hell, Necrotic Strike completely negates any argument that could be made that they aren't "hybrids," by your loose definition, as it heals for more than FoL.
    2) Warriors are only brought for burst and their difficulty to kill comparatively to other hard-hitting melee; DK are brought because as Frost they output a lot of burst and as Unholy they are able to do damage while negating healing. Both of these classes have offensive utility that reduces healing to the target. Warriors, also, have a team spell reflect, health increase, and 2 interrupts, 1 of which is an AoE (The TL;DR is that Warriors would be viable without ridiculous damage at this point).
    3) The same goes for almost every other burst class, if you hadn't noticed, Warlock representation is way down ever since Demo became nearly unviable in Arena and Destro lost a lot of its burst.
    4) Name 1 reason that you would ever bring a Retribution paladin into an arena team when you could bring a Warrior or DK? Especially in 3s where you can just bring a more effective DPS and melee cleave your way to 2k.
    5) No one likes going up against 3v3 healer teams either, but it works because people don't want to be in arenas for 45 minutes.
    6) Your entire argument is a fallacy based upon nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zoomgpally View Post
    DKs and warriors can't offheal while in dps spec and gear
    The offheals are extremely low (about 50 - 80k or so every 12 seconds, which is about 1 GCD of damage for most classes).
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  16. #16
    Banned Rorke's Avatar
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    They aren't hybrids, but they can sure as hell heal themselves while both having better defensives and ability to put a constant pressure. Hell, Necrotic Strike completely negates any argument that could be made that they aren't "hybrids," by your loose definition, as it heals for more than FoL.
    DK's and Warriors being able to heal doesn't make them hybrids. You should notice that both classes don't have castable heal spells to assist team mates. Arguing that both classes are hybrids because they can heal is like saying Rogues are hybrids because they have recuperate. Having survivability tools as a class doesn't automatically make a class a hybrid in pvp. Having the ability to heal another team mate is an actual hybrid in pvp.

    Warriors are only brought for burst and their difficulty to kill comparatively to other hard-hitting melee; DK are brought because as Frost they output a lot of burst and as Unholy they are able to do damage while negating healing. Both of these classes have offensive utility that reduces healing to the target. Warriors, also, have a team spell reflect, health increase, and 2 interrupts, 1 of which is an AoE (The TL;DR is that Warriors would be viable without ridiculous damage at this point).
    Warriors were always easy to kill prior to this expansion. That argument holds no water during season 6,8 and 9. Warriors have historically always been good when their damage is retarded through either stupid gear scaling or unneeded damage buffs (like now).

    Don't even mention Frost DK's as the spec is less viable than an enhancement shaman in a competitive level. And stop saying there's burst with Frost. Frost is literally high amounts of unpredictable sustained damage. It's way too completely reliant on Killing Machine to deal any form of consistent damage.

    Warriors have utility, but its not the reason they're overtuned right now. If that were the case, Warriors would've been highly played in patch 5.3. What people seem to not understand is that the Warrior tool kit hasn't changed at all from patch 5.3 to 5.4. To argue that Warriors are overpowered because of all of that mobility, passive defense, control, utility is ridiculous. The real reason is damage, its always been damage. In 5.3, you could afford to have a Warrior completely sit on you without breaking a sweat until he used Avatar which you could counter.

    Now after the ridiculous Arms damage buffs, Warriors don't even need to spec into Avatar anymore and can literally kill you through sustained damage. That is now why all of these sudden complaints about Disrupting Shout/Pummel, Juggernaut, Spell reflect, are happening. If they literally reverted every single damage buff to Arms (which they won't do) from 5.4, nobody would complain about the Warrior tool kit because everyone knows that compared to other classes like Ferals/Rogues and Monks, its complete shit. Warriors would go back to bottom tier and be replaced by Rogues whom are secretly overtuned right now.

    Name 1 reason that you would ever bring a Retribution paladin into an arena team when you could bring a Warrior or DK? Especially in 3s where you can just bring a more effective DPS and melee cleave your way to 2k.
    And this is a good thing. I want DK's and Warriors to have an edge in competitive pvp over a class that has two options to play pvp. What part of Retribution being good ruins the fun for anyone playing those other two classes do you not understand? If Ret can do comparable offensive pressure and mindlessly tunnel like a Warrior can, then there's no reason to bring a Warrior because that's supposed to be the Warriors main job. And no, Warriors can't switch specs like Paladins can and still have a respectable spec to play. It's either Arms does good damage, or you're out of luck. Same with DK's Unholy, same with Rogue's Subtlety spec. Those three classes are literally the only classes in the game that are locked to one spec for pvp.

    And yes in case you or anyone else hasn't noticed, I am arguing for a hybrid tax for classes that have a healing spec with a viable pvp damage spec. Druids, Paladins, Priests, and Shamans should have a tax on their damage specs in pvp. Those specs shouldn't be able to out perform pures in offensive pressure.

    And just so we're clear, I don't like Retribution Paladins. That is why I'm posting in this thread. I want to argue a position that keeps Ret away from high level pvp.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    DK's and Warriors being able to heal doesn't make them hybrids. You should notice that both classes don't have castable heal spells to assist team mates. Arguing that both classes are hybrids because they can heal is like saying Rogues are hybrids because they have recuperate. Having survivability tools as a class doesn't automatically make a class a hybrid in pvp. Having the ability to heal another team mate is an actual hybrid in pvp.
    Your definition of a hybrid is inherently flawed then, as most classes can't off heal worth a damn anymore. Ret's off heals, as well, are amongst the weakest in the game.

    Warriors were always easy to kill prior to this expansion. That argument holds no water during season 6,8 and 9. Warriors have historically always been good when their damage is retarded through either stupid gear scaling or unneeded damage buffs (like now).
    If you think that, you did not play a Warrior well (if you play one?). I had an alt Warrior and whenever I faced a team, or player in the case of duels, of equal gear and skill the win was pretty easy.
    Also your argument that Warriors are only good when their damage is high, once again, is true for all burst dps.

    Don't even mention Frost DK's as the spec is less viable than an enhancement shaman in a competitive level. And stop saying there's burst with Frost. Frost is literally high amounts of unpredictable sustained damage. It's way too completely reliant on Killing Machine to deal any form of consistent damage.
    Arena representation in itself proves that you're wrong, in a competitive setting. Unholy DKs have 3.9% higher representation in 1800+ rated Arena.
    There is burst with Frost, even if it is based partially on RNG. That being said, all RNG does for Frost is give it free crits.

    Warriors have utility, but its not the reason they're overtuned right now. If that were the case, Warriors would've been highly played in patch 5.3. What people seem to not understand is that the Warrior tool kit hasn't changed at all from patch 5.3 to 5.4. To argue that Warriors are overpowered because of all of that mobility, passive defense, control, utility is ridiculous. The real reason is damage, its always been damage. In 5.3, you could afford to have a Warrior completely sit on you without breaking a sweat until he used Avatar which you could counter.
    It's those things combined with the insane burst that makes them over-tuned. That being said, prior to 5.4, Warrior representation was still fine (still above Rets, Monks, Enhance, etc).

    Now after the ridiculous Arms damage buffs, Warriors don't even need to spec into Avatar anymore and can literally kill you through sustained damage. That is now why all of these sudden complaints about Disrupting Shout/Pummel, Juggernaut, Spell reflect, are happening. If they literally reverted every single damage buff to Arms (which they won't do) from 5.4, nobody would complain about the Warrior tool kit because everyone knows that compared to other classes like Ferals/Rogues and Monks, its complete shit. Warriors would go back to bottom tier and be replaced by Rogues whom are secretly overtuned right now.
    Yes, but it's the toolkit in conjunction with their ridiculous damage that's the problem. If Warriors only had ridiculous damage but had a limited amount of utility or less powerful defensive CDs, it wouldn't be a problem.

    And this is a good thing. I want DK's and Warriors to have an edge in competitive pvp over a class that has two options to play pvp. What part of Retribution being good ruins the fun for anyone playing those other two classes do you not understand? If Ret can do comparable offensive pressure and mindlessly tunnel like a Warrior can, then there's no reason to bring a Warrior because that's supposed to be the Warriors main job. And no, Warriors can't switch specs like Paladins can and still have a respectable spec to play. It's either Arms does good damage, or you're out of luck. Same with DK's Unholy, same with Rogue's Subtlety spec. Those three classes are literally the only classes in the game that are locked to one spec for pvp.
    You are literally the least informed person I have ever talked to on this forum. Arms and Sub is always 2k viable in Arena and DKs always have at least one spec that's good enough to play. The entirety of your argument is stupid and revolves around the archaic logic that "Class A is a hybrid, it should have to heal and should never be viable for anything other than that." People with your mentality need to uninstall, it's the worst mentality one can have and is not productive to anything. All I can say is that I am at least glad that people like you wont ever get a job in game development.
    And yes in case you or anyone else hasn't noticed, I am arguing for a hybrid tax for classes that have a healing spec with a viable pvp damage spec. Druids, Paladins, Priests, and Shamans should have a tax on their damage specs in pvp. Those specs shouldn't be able to out perform pures in offensive pressure.

    And just so we're clear, I don't like Retribution Paladins. That is why I'm posting in this thread. I want to argue a position that keeps Ret away from high level pvp.
    And this is just stupid. It's fine to have the dislike Ret but, under the assumption that you are a Warrior, it makes you look really bad.
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    DK's and Warriors being able to heal doesn't make them hybrids. You should notice that both classes don't have castable heal spells to assist team mates. Arguing that both classes are hybrids because they can heal is like saying Rogues are hybrids because they have recuperate. Having survivability tools as a class doesn't automatically make a class a hybrid in pvp. Having the ability to heal another team mate is an actual hybrid in pvp.



    Warriors were always easy to kill prior to this expansion. That argument holds no water during season 6,8 and 9. Warriors have historically always been good when their damage is retarded through either stupid gear scaling or unneeded damage buffs (like now).

    Don't even mention Frost DK's as the spec is less viable than an enhancement shaman in a competitive level. And stop saying there's burst with Frost. Frost is literally high amounts of unpredictable sustained damage. It's way too completely reliant on Killing Machine to deal any form of consistent damage.

    Warriors have utility, but its not the reason they're overtuned right now. If that were the case, Warriors would've been highly played in patch 5.3. What people seem to not understand is that the Warrior tool kit hasn't changed at all from patch 5.3 to 5.4. To argue that Warriors are overpowered because of all of that mobility, passive defense, control, utility is ridiculous. The real reason is damage, its always been damage. In 5.3, you could afford to have a Warrior completely sit on you without breaking a sweat until he used Avatar which you could counter.

    Now after the ridiculous Arms damage buffs, Warriors don't even need to spec into Avatar anymore and can literally kill you through sustained damage. That is now why all of these sudden complaints about Disrupting Shout/Pummel, Juggernaut, Spell reflect, are happening. If they literally reverted every single damage buff to Arms (which they won't do) from 5.4, nobody would complain about the Warrior tool kit because everyone knows that compared to other classes like Ferals/Rogues and Monks, its complete shit. Warriors would go back to bottom tier and be replaced by Rogues whom are secretly overtuned right now.



    And this is a good thing. I want DK's and Warriors to have an edge in competitive pvp over a class that has two options to play pvp. What part of Retribution being good ruins the fun for anyone playing those other two classes do you not understand? If Ret can do comparable offensive pressure and mindlessly tunnel like a Warrior can, then there's no reason to bring a Warrior because that's supposed to be the Warriors main job. And no, Warriors can't switch specs like Paladins can and still have a respectable spec to play. It's either Arms does good damage, or you're out of luck. Same with DK's Unholy, same with Rogue's Subtlety spec. Those three classes are literally the only classes in the game that are locked to one spec for pvp.

    And yes in case you or anyone else hasn't noticed, I am arguing for a hybrid tax for classes that have a healing spec with a viable pvp damage spec. Druids, Paladins, Priests, and Shamans should have a tax on their damage specs in pvp. Those specs shouldn't be able to out perform pures in offensive pressure.

    And just so we're clear, I don't like Retribution Paladins. That is why I'm posting in this thread. I want to argue a position that keeps Ret away from high level pvp.
    Just because a class has more options than another class doesnt make it ok. the goal is to make every class/spec R1 viable, and although that is prolly impossible, thats the objective. Im a ~1700 ret paladin myself and i dont like healing in PvP or PvE so, Blizz cant force me to go holy, that would go against the mindset of MMO's and video games in general.

    Would it be fair if Blizz made Arms complete dogshit and buffed fury to godmode, therefore, making all arms players re-learn the fury spec? NO

    Every melee class/spec should be able to put out pressure/damage just in different ways. the fact that I have to work 5 times harder as a ret pally to put out the same damage and pressure as a warrior is ridiculous, and thats not to mention all the utility and survivability that a warrior brings to the table.....wayyyyy more than a ret pally. Your last statement is just selfish

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral Natrii's Avatar
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    I Love my ret in pvp. The problem is most people try to play them like warriors. Yes with a ret you chain CDs for your burst, but you need to be patience and wait for the right time. If you time it wrong you are more than likely gonna have to wait 2 mins to try and really kill something. During your non burst phase you should utilize the massive amount of utility a ret pally offers, while keeping pressure on key targets in pvp.

    There is a reason that in 3s rets get chained so hard. If you leave them alive they will make for a very aggravating match. High off heals, hand of protection on healers, hand of freedom improving the mobility of the people who can keep up the heavy damage, and hand of sac is a life saver.

    Ret is not bad, it is just more utility and less smash face on keyboard than its former incarnations...wrath...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    .

    Ret is far ahead of many other specs, of course. But I do think it needs help in the current meta. It's hard to compare with warriors on the table though.
    No they aren't ahead they are on last spot.

    There are inactive specs too, but i do not count them, from the played ones they are the least played specs in arenas. especially 3s.

    There are even more ww monks than rets in 3s, the monks are the class hardly anyone plays in arenas compared to etablished old classes.

    There are more enhancer shamans, too in 3s just to compare old, true melee hybrid with old, true melee hybrid.

    The spec is utter garbage in this season for many reasions, not just the low damage it does. My dk does 3 times the dmg of my equal geared ret partner, whos offhealing is gimped especially considered to cata ret heals or current moonkin hybrid heals, all thats left is a little toolbox that a holy pal can bring, too.

    My ret friend allready rerolled warrior and enjoyed it, cause all he wanted was to play a melee dd in pvp, he used to be a holy pala, but made the mistake to buy grieveous pvp weapon and gear for his ret. Also i never encountered a good ret this season anywhere.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by natrii View Post

    Ret is not bad, it is just more utility and less smash face on keyboard than its former incarnations...wrath...
    I am sorry, but without the dmg, the ret fills no purpose and holy spec is superior with the same utility but more heal, besides in cata his off heal was much better, too and rets still were popular even without the wrath faceroll op tragedy. current state of ret is inacceptable, opinions might differ, but numbers can't be wrong.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-12-02 at 06:55 AM.

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