Why not just make BT 100% crit ?

[Darkfriend]

Speak for yourself; I hate priority systems with a vengeance, and Warrior IMO is definitely one of the classes that need removal of a lot of button bloat and streamlining in Warlords.

No offense, but I'm going to say that every warrior who raids on their warrior currently loves how Fury plays, and most if not all think it's in the best shape it's ever been. If you dislike it as it currently is, it's probably more due to a lack of gear, or lack of experience playing the class rather than an actual class issue. Example, I think movement sucks on some of my range characters. That's probably far more likely to be due to me just being not as good at the class, rather than a systemic issue.

Bloat, sorta. Cleave could use a rework or removal. Shattering throw could do with having the cast time removed. Outside of that, everything else is great.

[Nobleshield]

Off the top of my head, here's my keybinds for Arms on the rare occasion I play it (roughly the same for Fury with some changes naturally), I'm more than likely forgetting a couple of binds as well, as I have mostly played my Paladin since 5.1 so I don't 100% remember how my UI is laid out.

1: Colossus Smash
2: Heroic Strike (Wild strike for fury)
3: Slam (Raging Blow for fury)
4: Thunderclap (Whirlwind for Fury)
5: Charge
6: Battle Shout
F: Mortal Strike (Bloodthirst for Fury)
R: Execute
T: Victory Rush
A: Heroic Throw
`: Pummel
G: Bloodbath/Stormbolt/Avatar (whichever taken)
V: Die by the Sword
Z: Berserker Rage/Enraged Regen macro
D: Sweeping Strikes (I forget what this is bound to as Fury)
C: Spell Reflect
Shift+2: Cleave
Shift+3: Disarm
Shift+4: Hamstring
Shift+5: Disrupting Shout/Piercing Shout/Staggering Shout
Shift+6: Commanding Shout
Shift+A: Shattering Throw
Shift+G: Recklessness
Shift+F: Dragon Roar/Shockwave/Bladestorm
Shift+R: Rallying Cry
Shift+V: Shield Wall
Shift+D: Sunder Armor
Shift+C: (not used, would likely be Mass Spell Reflect if taken)
Mouse #1 (Naga): Skull Banner
Mouse #2 (Naga): Demoralizing Banner
Mouse #3 (Naga): Intimidating Shout
Mouse #4 (Naga): Heroic Leap

and for Protection:

1: Shield Slam
2: Heroic Strike
3: Revenge
4: Thunderclap
5: Charge
6: Commanding Shout
A: Heroic Throw
F: Devastate
T: Taunt
R: Execute
D: Shield Block
G: Bloodbath/Stormbolt/Avatar
V: Shield Wall
C: Spell Reflect
Z: Berserker Rage/Enraged Regen macro
`: Pummel
Shift+2: Cleave
Shift+3: Disarm
Shift+4: Demoralizing Shout
Shift+5: Disrupting Shout (only one I typically take)
Shift+6: Battle Shout
Shift+A: Shattering Throw
Shift+F: Shockwave/Dragon Roar/Bladestorm
Shift+T: Victory Rush
Shift+R: Rallying Cry
Shift+D: Shield Barrier
Shift+G: Recklessness
Shift+V: Last Stand
Shift+C: (not used, would be Mass Spell Reflect)
M1 (Naga): Skull Banner
M2 (Naga): Demoralizing Banner
M3 (Naga): Challenging Banner
M4 (Naga): Heroic Leap
M5 (Naga): Hamstring

Now I'm sorry but IMO some 30 keybinds is way too many for anything in the game (and that isn't even including binds for potions and healthstones and if applicable racials, which add two more). Note that I'm not talking about bloat as far as how the actual playstyle is (which for Warriors I do think is in a pretty good place), I mean bloat as far as the general number of keybinds for "This might be useful" situations, which I firmly believe any good player keybinds "might be useful" abilities just in case they need them.

[Darkfriend]

If you keybind weird things that probably only need to be used once or twice an xpac, that's more an issue w/ your keybindings. You don't need intimidating shout, SR, hamstring, cleave commanding shout OR battle shout (pick one and replace as needed in same keybind), heroic throw (as arms), or sunder armor.

So yes, you are just keybinding things you don't need. If a certain fight needs a certain mechanic like hamstring/spell reflect just put it in for that fight.

That's assuming PVE. PvP, it depends.

[Deleted]

snip

Aren't you supposed to prevent thread derailing as a moderator? Or do you gain permission from the super moderators to derail threads because you're a mod?

Genuine question, because I see this quite often from many moderators, yet they ban people for going off-topic.

[Darkfriend]

Aren't you supposed to prevent thread derailing as a moderator? Or do you gain permission from the super moderators to derail threads because you're a mod?

Genuine question, because I see this quite often from many moderators, yet they ban people for going off-topic.

Threads evolve. If a thread could only stay on one topic, discussion would be stiffed.

[pkm]

Forgetting about crit depression which lowers that even more.

Sorry but i couldn't help but chuckle

[galvin]

Well it may make some people depressed

[Skiboy]

If you keybind weird things that probably only need to be used once or twice an xpac, that's more an issue w/ your keybindings. You don't need intimidating shout, SR, hamstring, cleave commanding shout OR battle shout (pick one and replace as needed in same keybind), heroic throw (as arms), or sunder armor.

So yes, you are just keybinding things you don't need. If a certain fight needs a certain mechanic like hamstring/spell reflect just put it in for that fight.

That's assuming PVE. PvP, it depends.

Now lets assume you don't play just in raids(I can see picking ONE shout and replacing as needed for raid comp) and I can see a need to have basically every thing listed bound and actually I am sort of dumbstruck at a lack of a few. Heroic strike only bound as arms? Berserker rage or an enraged regen macro? Should always be separate... No stances Key bound.

(B3, B4, B5 are remapped to my Naga Hex 1, 2, 3)
B3:Charge
B4:Heroic Leap
B5:Intervene
alt+B3:Spell Reflect
alt+B4:Mass Spell Reflect\Vigilance
alt+B5:PvP Trinket\Extra Action Button(Macro'd Key bind)\additional encounter specific macros as needed
S+B3:Mocking Banner
S+B4:Demo Banner
S+B5:Skull Banner

(7,8,9 are remapped to my Naga Hex Buttons 4, 5, 6)
7:Disarm
8:DPS(Demo Shout)
9:Shield Wall
alt+7:Battle Stance
alt+8:Defensive Stance
alt+9:Berserker Stance
S+7:Health Stone
S+8:Intimidating Shout
S+9:Rallying Cry

~:Battle\Commanding
1:BT (Arms MS)(Prot Shield Slam
2:RB (Arms Slam)(Prot Revenge)
3:WS (Arms OP)(Prot Devastate)
4:Execute
Q:Mount Macro
E:CS(Prot Shield Block)

alt+~:Heroic Throw
alt+1:Thunderclap
alt+2:Victory Rush
alt+3:Shattering Throw
alt+4:BS\DR\SW
alt+Q:Encounter Specific Target Macro(prot Last Stand)
alt+E:Whirlwind (arms Sweeping Strikes)(Prot Shield Barrier)

F: Berserker Rage
Z: Hamstring(prot taunt)
X:Stagger\Disrupting\Piercing
C:Storm bolt\Blood Bath\Avatar
V:Pummel

alt+A:Potion
alt+S:Recklessness Macro
alt+D:Nitro Boost

Mouse Wheel Up:Cleave
Mouse Wheel Down:Heroic Strike(who hasn't been using this key bind since vanilla, Thanks Satrina for you awesome guides and tips!)
alt+MWU:Set Focus
alt+MWD:Target Focus\Swap focus and target

Not binding abilities and using them regularly makes you sloppy, you will lack proper muscle memory when it comes time to do it, and it diminishes your ability to make good use of your powerful situational utility.
Keeping abilities on the same key binds between specs and similar abilities between characters(shield wall like abilities etc.) is a good habit to be in it plays well with muscle memory.

[Fatalfuror]

No offense, but I'm going to say that every warrior who raids on their warrior currently loves how Fury plays, and most if not all think it's in the best shape it's ever been. If you dislike it as it currently is, it's probably more due to a lack of gear, or lack of experience playing the class rather than an actual class issue. Example, I think movement sucks on some of my range characters. That's probably far more likely to be due to me just being not as good at the class, rather than a systemic issue.

I'm in #21 U.S. 25-man, 14/14 Heroic, and here to say you're full of shit for making such a declaration. I also rank pretty much all the time. I know my shit, I know my class, been playing Warrior since Vanilla.

There are definitely things wrong with Fury. BT is one of them. At the low end, it sucks. At the high end, the whole point of Crit (the supposed "priority system") becomes confused. It is the sure sign of a mechanic gone horribly wrong. Gearing is also extremely stale because of the way Crit scales. I don't see how the same people who love "dynamic RNG" can also love a class that only cares about one stat in the entire game because of that same "dynamic RNG" and "priority system".

Moreover, the "priority system" essentially doesn't exist at high levels of gear (crit). You use RBs as you get them. It becomes a rotation. Again, it's a flawed mechanic from any objective viewpoint. I see people defend it all the time, but to me it's just a sign of someone that can't grasp the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. You might like it the way it is, but it doesn't change the fact that it's broken. And FYI, the other two warriors I raid with have expressed similar concerns about the BT/Crit relationship in MoP, particularly at lower gear levels, but even continuing with our absurdly inflated gear levels.

Those of us that want true competition are not in favor of RNG. If you are in favor of RNG, you aren't really competitive. You might delude yourself as being competitive, but trust me, you aren't. Legitimate competition occurs on an even playing field with as little random chance as possible.

[CollisionTD]

I'm in a US #20 guild with better parses on almost every single fight and I say you're full of shit. See what I did there ?

I mean no disrespect but throwing around rankings to make a point is stupid.

[Deleted]

I'm in #21 U.S. 25-man, 14/14 Heroic, and here to say you're full of shit for making such a declaration. I also rank pretty much all the time. I know my shit, I know my class, been playing Warrior since Vanilla.

There are definitely things wrong with Fury. BT is one of them. At the low end, it sucks. At the high end, the whole point of Crit (the supposed "priority system") becomes confused. It is the sure sign of a mechanic gone horribly wrong. Gearing is also extremely stale because of the way Crit scales. I don't see how the same people who love "dynamic RNG" can also love a class that only cares about one stat in the entire game because of that same "dynamic RNG" and "priority system".

Moreover, the "priority system" essentially doesn't exist at high levels of gear (crit). You use RBs as you get them. It becomes a rotation. Again, it's a flawed mechanic from any objective viewpoint. I see people defend it all the time, but to me it's just a sign of someone that can't grasp the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. You might like it the way it is, but it doesn't change the fact that it's broken. And FYI, the other two warriors I raid with have expressed similar concerns about the BT/Crit relationship in MoP, particularly at lower gear levels, but even continuing with our absurdly inflated gear levels.

Those of us that want true competition are not in favor of RNG. If you are in favor of RNG, you aren't really competitive. You might delude yourself as being competitive, but trust me, you aren't. Legitimate competition occurs on an even playing field with as little random chance as possible.

I'm in a #2000 guild and I rank heroic fights too.

Your progress doesn't mean much in terms of individual skill.

[Skiboy]

I'm in #21 U.S. 25-man, 14/14 Heroic, and here to say you're full of shit for making such a declaration. I also rank pretty much all the time. I know my shit, I know my class, been playing Warrior since Vanilla.

There are definitely things wrong with Fury. BT is one of them. At the low end, it sucks. At the high end, the whole point of Crit (the supposed "priority system") becomes confused. It is the sure sign of a mechanic gone horribly wrong. Gearing is also extremely stale because of the way Crit scales. I don't see how the same people who love "dynamic RNG" can also love a class that only cares about one stat in the entire game because of that same "dynamic RNG" and "priority system".

Moreover, the "priority system" essentially doesn't exist at high levels of gear (crit). You use RBs as you get them. It becomes a rotation. Again, it's a flawed mechanic from any objective viewpoint. I see people defend it all the time, but to me it's just a sign of someone that can't grasp the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact. You might like it the way it is, but it doesn't change the fact that it's broken. And FYI, the other two warriors I raid with have expressed similar concerns about the BT/Crit relationship in MoP, particularly at lower gear levels, but even continuing with our absurdly inflated gear levels.

Those of us that want true competition are not in favor of RNG. If you are in favor of RNG, you aren't really competitive. You might delude yourself as being competitive, but trust me, you aren't. Legitimate competition occurs on an even playing field with as little random chance as possible.

A Much better way to put this is, at low gear Levels(crit) Fury is a random proc based spec layered on top of a priority system, at high gear levels it becomes much more predictable(at least in terms of enrage up time and RB generation) and tends towards a purely Priority based spec with much less RNG, but it is still there and removing it completely is not within our grasp. There is nothing wrong with proc based specs as long as at the low end of "luck" they are still competitive and at the high end of "luck" they are not an extreme outlier.

Neither of you however should feel comfortable "speaking for" a majority and yet you both are. Fury is in it's best spot competitively this expansion, and one of the better spots it has been in over the course of the game as a whole. That is due in large part to the massive amount of stat inflation we have seen. But don't forget we spent the entire last expansion getting nerfed with each tier release and ending each tier as one of the top melee specs, warriors have never hurt for long with regards to the meters.
What we really should be talking about at this point if we are trying to give feedback to the development team and get good constructive conversations going in the warrior community is gameplay. Remember not to confuse gameplay with DPS, despite being linked they are two totally different things and each "knob" can be turned and tuned independently. When you evaluate how fun a spec is to play you really should look at how the rotation and kit feel to you and ignore the numbers because those can be changed for the most part.

On that note, Fury feels the most fun right now to ME(subjective) at around the 35% crit mark and up. and I would say the further you get from that (completely arbitrary) mark in either direction the "fun factor" scales up or down along the same route. Making BT always proc RB and crits proc enrage and enrage always gives an RB charge so a crit BT gives 2 RB's and CS crits give one. Also let me bank up to 3 charges. That makes the spec play similiarly at both high and low gear levels but rewards smart play and gear acquisition without feeling like you are standing around waiting every other GCD or two at low levels. I also like that raging wind makes WW take priority over WS, I think that is actually a good spot to tune for some good priority based min/max playing. make WS viable always, but with a gap of say 1 tier(13ilvl currently)WW is better damage with raging wind. This serves to not penalize people in a raid group with a lot of people that need the same weapons while keeping them competitive with those lucky enough to not have so much competition or get lucky rolls.

[MerinPally]

Do people not use modifier macros anymore? Great way to reduce the number of buttons on your bar. For as long as I've had my warrior I've had Heroic Strike on 2 and Cleave on alt-2 through a macro. Since Cata I have 2 for CS on my paladin and alt-2 for HotR. Since Inquisition was added to the game I had 4 for SHOTR and alt-4 for Inquisition as prot (until it got removed for prot). Had 4 for Templars Verdict and alt-4 for Divine Storm since Cata.

For similar but situational spells, when I worked out how to use a modifier macro it was an absolute godsend for my action bars. No, noone else?

[Darkfriend]

Now lets assume you don't play just in raids(I can see picking ONE shout and replacing as needed for raid comp) and I can see a need to have basically every thing listed bound and actually I am sort of dumbstruck at a lack of a few. Heroic strike only bound as arms? Berserker rage or an enraged regen macro? Should always be separate... No stances Key bound.

(B3, B4, B5 are remapped to my Naga Hex 1, 2, 3)
B3:Charge
B4:Heroic Leap
B5:Intervene
alt+B3:Spell Reflect
alt+B4:Mass Spell Reflect\Vigilance
alt+B5:PvP Trinket\Extra Action Button(Macro'd Key bind)\additional encounter specific macros as needed
S+B3:Mocking Banner
S+B4:Demo Banner
S+B5:Skull Banner

(7,8,9 are remapped to my Naga Hex Buttons 4, 5, 6)
7:Disarm
8:DPS(Demo Shout)
9:Shield Wall
alt+7:Battle Stance
alt+8:Defensive Stance
alt+9:Berserker Stance
S+7:Health Stone
S+8:Intimidating Shout
S+9:Rallying Cry

~:Battle\Commanding
1:BT (Arms MS)(Prot Shield Slam
2:RB (Arms Slam)(Prot Revenge)
3:WS (Arms OP)(Prot Devastate)
4:Execute
Q:Mount Macro
E:CS(Prot Shield Block)

alt+~:Heroic Throw
alt+1:Thunderclap
alt+2:Victory Rush
alt+3:Shattering Throw
alt+4:BS\DR\SW
alt+Q:Encounter Specific Target Macro(prot Last Stand)
alt+E:Whirlwind (arms Sweeping Strikes)(Prot Shield Barrier)

F: Berserker Rage
Z: Hamstring(prot taunt)
X:Stagger\Disrupting\Piercing
C:Storm bolt\Blood Bath\Avatar
V:Pummel

alt+A:Potion
alt+S:Recklessness Macro
alt+D:Nitro Boost

Mouse Wheel Up:Cleave
Mouse Wheel Down:Heroic Strike(who hasn't been using this key bind since vanilla, Thanks Satrina for you awesome guides and tips!)
alt+MWU:Set Focus
alt+MWD:Target Focus\Swap focus and target

Not binding abilities and using them regularly makes you sloppy, you will lack proper muscle memory when it comes time to do it, and it diminishes your ability to make good use of your powerful situational utility.
Keeping abilities on the same key binds between specs and similar abilities between characters(shield wall like abilities etc.) is a good habit to be in it plays well with muscle memory.

Heroic THROW not bound as arms :P

Also, I typoed. I meant to say every warrior *I know* who raids on their warrior. Those I can speak for, they've told me. Others, YMMV.

As well, throwing around rankings doesn't mean anything, nor does guild progression. I raid at the level I raid because of IRL friends. Whether or not I am actually better than you or not won't be proven by logs, so it's irrelevant there too. Essentially, just because your guild is higher progressed doesn't mean anything here.

Lastly, I never said fury doesn't have issues. I said that according to every warrior I know and talk to, who raids on their warrior as DPS (so excluding tanks/PVP etc) enjoys it in its current state. Again, that doesn't mean it couldn't be better. As gear improves yes, it does become more rotation LIKE, but never a rotation. There is still RNG there. Crit is really valuable. That's partially a factor of trinkets/tier set (or lack of going for one) and the like though, not only due to scaling.

[Shakari]

A Much better way to put this is, at low gear Levels(crit) Fury is a random proc based spec layered on top of a priority system, at high gear levels it becomes much more predictable(at least in terms of enrage up time and RB generation) and tends towards a purely Priority based spec with much less RNG, but it is still there and removing it completely is not within our grasp. There is nothing wrong with proc based specs as long as at the low end of "luck" they are still competitive and at the high end of "luck" they are not an extreme outlier.

Neither of you however should feel comfortable "speaking for" a majority and yet you both are. Fury is in it's best spot competitively this expansion, and one of the better spots it has been in over the course of the game as a whole. That is due in large part to the massive amount of stat inflation we have seen. But don't forget we spent the entire last expansion getting nerfed with each tier release and ending each tier as one of the top melee specs, warriors have never hurt for long with regards to the meters.
What we really should be talking about at this point if we are trying to give feedback to the development team and get good constructive conversations going in the warrior community is gameplay. Remember not to confuse gameplay with DPS, despite being linked they are two totally different things and each "knob" can be turned and tuned independently. When you evaluate how fun a spec is to play you really should look at how the rotation and kit feel to you and ignore the numbers because those can be changed for the most part.

On that note, Fury feels the most fun right now to ME(subjective) at around the 35% crit mark and up. and I would say the further you get from that (completely arbitrary) mark in either direction the "fun factor" scales up or down along the same route. Making BT always proc RB and crits proc enrage and enrage always gives an RB charge so a crit BT gives 2 RB's and CS crits give one. Also let me bank up to 3 charges. That makes the spec play similiarly at both high and low gear levels but rewards smart play and gear acquisition without feeling like you are standing around waiting every other GCD or two at low levels. I also like that raging wind makes WW take priority over WS, I think that is actually a good spot to tune for some good priority based min/max playing. make WS viable always, but with a gap of say 1 tier(13ilvl currently)WW is better damage with raging wind. This serves to not penalize people in a raid group with a lot of people that need the same weapons while keeping them competitive with those lucky enough to not have so much competition or get lucky rolls.

Must admit I agree with this a lot.

I don't myself fury see it as broken, and I am finding it fun to play in this current style. Fury has always been crit dependant, its been one of the defining points of the spec imo.

I personally found the fun got more fun as my crit passed 33% now I'm at just under 42% I enjoying myself immensely in raids hehe still its subjective, there will always be those who dislike it.

[Skiboy]

Do people not use modifier macros anymore? Great way to reduce the number of buttons on your bar. For as long as I've had my warrior I've had Heroic Strike on 2 and Cleave on alt-2 through a macro. Since Cata I have 2 for CS on my paladin and alt-2 for HotR. Since Inquisition was added to the game I had 4 for SHOTR and alt-4 for Inquisition as prot (until it got removed for prot). Had 4 for Templars Verdict and alt-4 for Divine Storm since Cata.

For similar but situational spells, when I worked out how to use a modifier macro it was an absolute godsend for my action bars. No, noone else?

If you look I use a metric FUCKTON of modified key bindings, that said the most important ones I have WA's to show me CD/proc info and the lesser used ones I have OmniCC for so I don't clutter up more space on my screen. my current Bar layout is 2 12 button rows at the bottom, and then two 3x3 grids on either side(corresponding to my front three nad back three naga hex buttons) with a standard [Player] [ToT] [Target] layout including cast bar and a 3 icon auracle tracker for the three DPS raid debuffs(Sunder/Physical DMG taken/Spell DMG taken). The auracle tracker is mostly so I can be a complete fucking asshole and yell at warlocks or hunters with a useless pet in my raids.

[Fatalfuror]

I'm in a US #20 guild with better parses on almost every single fight and I say you're full of shit. See what I did there ?

I mean no disrespect but throwing around rankings to make a point is stupid.

Are you retarded or something? No wait, I already know the answer to that.

I was responding to the statement that suggested all raiding warriors are fine with the spec.

I already know you won't respond to any of my actual arguments, because you're a gigantic piece of shit. You're way too invested in the status quo to be of any help to this class.

But do continue circle-jerking around like you're hot shit or something. I hear that leads to progress.


[Infracted]

[Skiboy]

Are you retarded or something? No wait, I already know the answer to that.

I was responding to the statement that suggested all raiding warriors are fine with the spec.

I already know you won't respond to any of my actual arguments, because you're a gigantic piece of shit. You're way too invested in the status quo to be of any help to this class.

But do continue circle-jerking around like you're hot shit or something. I hear that leads to progress.

Wow, you have terrible reading comprehension skills, and completely ignored the existence of a thread started by the guy you are flaming that is actually doing exactly what you say he has no interest in doing...

You replied to a generalization with another generalization, and completely irrelevant data. ever hear the phrase two wrongs don't make a right? Well in a similar vein two Logical Fallacies can't suddenly come together in argument and coalesce into a sound logical argument. On top of that you sound like an asshole.

[Boogums]

Speak for yourself; I hate priority systems with a vengeance, and Warrior IMO is definitely one of the classes that need removal of a lot of button bloat and streamlining in Warlords.

Then play another class.

[Fatalfuror]

Wow, you have terrible reading comprehension skills, and completely ignored the existence of a thread started by the guy you are flaming that is actually doing exactly what you say he has no interest in doing...

Completely ignored a non-important thread? I read it. There's no solution in there. Just hand-waving. "No, don't change our spec, it's soooo perfect right now!" "Best thing ever!" "If they change anything substantial, it might ruin us!"

Lots of fear, not a lot of anything worth gushing over.

Reading comprehension? Might want to look into that yourself, buddy. Oh, and stop attacking me just because I felt like contradicting a completely moronic statement made by someone that felt the need to speak for everyone else without any actual data. "LOL ALL DA WARRZ I R KNOW ABSOLEWTLEE LOVE EVERYTING BOUT OUR SPEC LOLOLOLERZ"

A data set of probably less than 5, which suddenly constitutes "all or nearly all raiding Warriors". Give me a break, son. Yeah, reading comprehension. Get some.

You replied to a generalization with another generalization, and completely irrelevant data. ever hear the phrase two wrongs don't make a right? Well in a similar vein two Logical Fallacies can't suddenly come together in argument and coalesce into a sound logical argument. On top of that you sound like an asshole.

What generalization? What logical fallacies?

Are you just throwing around words to see if something will stick?

I will give you one thing: I do sound like an asshole. Oh well.