Remove Elitists From Raids and Battlegrounds

[wych]

What's utter bullshit is that a once great MMORPG game with RPG elements are being dumbed down and/or removed to cater to casuals who are too lazy to attempt to play the game as it was intended even when there are URLs that exist that do all the work for you in less than a few clicks.

Dumbed down?

It wasn't particularly skillful or hard to click on a website and reforge your entire set every time you got an upgrade.

It was just an annoyance. The game is intended to be fun, it is not fun to open up Mr Robot and reforge your gear constantly, it's not immersive and it's not exciting

The game wasn't designed to have you spend time clicking out of it to reforge your entire set everytime you got an upgrade, hence why it's being removed.

[Louis CK]

My phone is shit for typing m8.

These "bad attitudes" are in a majority if cases, reactionary. If the group doesn't have piss low dps, people won't mention low dps. If people are failing at mechanics, players won't mention sucking at mechanics.of course no raid goes flawlessly, but you should be able to take criticism, whether they sugar coat it or not.

I was being cheeky, mainly to point out that mistakes happen, and sometimes they're not due to lack of knowledge or skill, but some temporary outside source. In your case, you misspelled "two." It's not a big deal whatsoever, and honestly who gives a fuck?

The point is, the same can occur in LFR. Maybe someone queued up and a little while in their baby woke up for a nap so they had to go take care of them. So of course they die in a fire and have shit dps. Or maybe someone is queueing up to try out a new spec that they have absolutely NO idea how to play, so they're fumbling around with new keybinds, etc..

Shit happens, and it's not always because the player is poor. Hell, I'm always on top in LFR runs by a decent amount, but last night this 560 mage came in and beat me on one fight (I'm 540) because I was talking to my girlfriend. I of course wrecked him on every other fight because he's not really all that great. But that one fight where I was distracted doesn't mean I'm a poor player, I just had other things going on and honestly do more than enough to carry an LFR as is.

There are of course douchebags, and then there are assholes who were turned into assholes by the community, but there are also other people that just need the benefit of the doubt.

You misspelled "two", they got distracted and died in a fire. No need for rage in either case, right? Shit happens.

[darkwarrior42]

What's utter bullshit is that a once great MMORPG game with RPG elements are being dumbed down and/or removed to cater to casuals who are too lazy to attempt to play the game as it was intended even when there are URLs that exist that do all the work for you in less than a few clicks.

On the flip side, reforging is a useful but uninteresting tool. Once you know your stat priorities, it's so much more efficient to use a computer to do the math that there is little compelling reason to do anything else... and since you're using a tool to do the math for you, all you're making choices about is what the stat priority is. Stat priorities can be achieved without reforging (as they were prior to reforging).

Right now, reforging and gemming is almost never an option for DPS, and is only sometimes and option for tanks. Healers have more option and choice involved, but a lot of that tends to revolve around "how much spirit do I want"... and reforging and gemming are way overblown systems to satisfy such small niches. Moreover, while I do certainly do the necessary reforging and gemming every time I upgrade, I won't deny that it feels more irritating than satisfying when I get a slight upgrade (say, normal -> warforged or taking an item and using valor to upgrade it) and have to spend another 250g to get my stats straightened out again. Blizzard wants upgrades to be exciting, and right now the sheer amount of upkeep takes away from that.... which, ultimately, is why the systems are being removed. NOT because they want to dumb the game down.

[Giscoicus]

Yes it is. It's neither constructive to say "noob". It's just as useless as saying "kill yourself". Both only shows that you're unsatisfied with the person. Not if you have any right or insight to do so. You don't show that you KNOW that they're bad so it is nothing but flaming. Because most of the time you have no god damn idea when you say "noob".
If you knew the problem you would say so, as in "<reason it's a noob>, fix it, noob". You could even put several swearwords in. It would have been somewhat constructive, but basically just the reasoning alone that works best.

Noob implies a lack of skill reflecting that of a new player. Kill yourself had no connection to the game. Get our head out of your ass and stop bickering over how people say something, but rather if what they're dying has validity. If somebody is doing badly, callin them a noob gets across the same thoughts as "you're doing really badly". Yet people will pre themselves over one word being used. How about people try, idk, seeing if the statement is true? If the player IS showing a lack of skill?

This entire thread is about how you should make sure that whenever you say something, you only use gentle terminology, or you are an elitist. That is fucking dumb. There is a difference between adding other words and phrases not connected to the game, like calling people faggots, and just not changing your syntax because something may offend people more.

And little of this has connection to elitism in the first place. It is people who cannot take criticism unless you start a 15 minute friendly conversation before bringing it up, then they will Likey get made anyway.

[Deleted]

Dumbed down?

It wasn't particularly skillful or hard to click on a website and reforge your entire set every time you got an upgrade.

It was just an annoyance. The game is intended to be fun, it is not fun to open up Mr Robot and reforge your gear constantly, it's not immersive and it's not exciting

The game wasn't designed to have you spend time clicking out of it to reforge your entire set everytime you got an upgrade, hence why it's being removed.

I want gear and stats as they were in TBC. Make choices whenever an upgrade drops. BiS lists not counted.

[Tucci]

So, I thought I would toss out an idea, since the front page seems to be littered with ideas of the same level of merit. I would love to have the system auto-kick the first person to yell at anyone in a BG, LFR, Flex, or Heroic. The system would see the profanity or masked profanity based on certain insults and remove the elitist from the run and allow everyone else to enjoy their game. This could be any douche in the group who feels the urge to bad mouth or belittle his team.

In the end, it is just a game. It should not matter that those of us who might prefer LFR don't do 150K in DPS, or those like myself who tank might miss a step and wipe. Shit happens. So the elitists either need to get the fuck over it, or not run LFR with strangers. Group with your friends and let the rest of us play our game our way. Since we are obviously bothering you, YOU need to look elsewhere for your runs while the majority of us casuals enjoy our game at our own pace.

#NoMoreElitists

Actually, in the end it's people's time. Which is arguably the most important thing in the world. I don't like the people who instantly spaz out but it also depends. When the raid is full of shit stains doing 40k dps in SoO, they have a right to be pissed. And since it's almost always like that, when you get into the 500th group that is crap, you tend to get a little annoyed.

I have no problem with some people not knowing fights and whatnot. But I still expect someone with a minimum of 496 ilvl to pull their weight, meaning doing more dps than my fucking level 85's. Also, if there was no "elitists" in the group, the group might fail horribly. Basically, I'd rather have a bunch of elitist morons that know what they're doing and get the job done rather than a bunch of noobs that expect those elitists to do their jobs for them. It's a nightmare sometimes running with an entire raid of clickers that don't know their class whatsoever.

[wych]

I want gear and stats as they were in TBC. Make choices whenever an upgrade drops. BiS lists not counted.

Same, although I never really found hit a very fulfilling stat

[khalltusk]

I want gear and stats as they were in TBC. Make choices whenever an upgrade drops. BiS lists not counted.

Strength for shamans again *shudders*

[Giscoicus]

I was being cheeky, mainly to point out that mistakes happen, and sometimes they're not due to lack of knowledge or skill, but some temporary outside source. In your case, you misspelled "two." It's not a big deal whatsoever, and honestly who gives a fuck?

The point is, the same can occur in LFR. Maybe someone queued up and a little while in their baby woke up for a nap so they had to go take care of them. So of course they die in a fire and have shit dps. Or maybe someone is queueing up to try out a new spec that they have absolutely NO idea how to play, so they're fumbling around with new keybinds, etc..

Shit happens, and it's not always because the player is poor. Hell, I'm always on top in LFR runs by a decent amount, but last night this 560 mage came in and beat me on one fight (I'm 540) because I was talking to my girlfriend. I of course wrecked him on every other fight because he's not really all that great. But that one fight where I was distracted doesn't mean I'm a poor player, I just had other things going on and honestly do more than enough to carry an LFR as is.

There are of course douchebags, and then there are assholes who were turned into assholes by the community, but there are also other people that just need the benefit of the doubt.

You misspelled "two", they got distracted and died in a fire. No need for rage in either case, right? Shit happens.

If people have a child to attend to, they should SAY something. Reasonable amount of time given, then kick. However they should not be constantly coming and going, they should not join the group if they cannot commit. Stuff pops up, yea, but doing it EVERY BOSS either you need to leave the raid to attend to whatever, or you aren't trying. If they need to go they should speak up. If its a real emergency they won't be ready after 5 minutes. It ou should go to the bathroom before raiding though, or urging a break. Not afk on trash.

[Radish Spirit]

This thread is seriously still going? How do we expect any self-respecting player to take these discussion forums seriously when there's a 55-page circlejerk at the top of GD about something even the original poster knows is never going to happen in a million years? What a ridiculous waste of words.

[khalltusk]

If people have a child to attend to, they should SAY something. Reasonable amount of time given, then kick. However they should not be constantly coming and going, they should not join the group if they cannot commit. Stuff pops up, yea, but doing it EVERY BOSS either you need to leave the raid to attend to whatever, or you aren't trying. If they need to go they should speak up. If its a real emergency they won't be ready after 5 minutes. It ou should go to the bathroom before raiding though, or urging a break. Not afk on trash.

They should say something when they get back perhaps (or if they get back but by then they would be kicked for AFK and thats fine). I dislike it when people constantly AFK in LFR runs. Sure if someone says "going BIO" or w/e cool least we know and hopefully its not just as we reached the boss but just clearing trash.

[darkwarrior42]

Noob implies a lack of skill reflecting that of a new player. Kill yourself had no connection to the game. Get our head out of your ass and stop bickering over how people say something, but rather if what they're dying has validity. If somebody is doing badly, callin them a noob gets across the same thoughts as "you're doing really badly". Yet people will pre themselves over one word being used. How about people try, idk, seeing if the statement is true? If the player IS showing a lack of skill? .

An insult is still an insult even if it's valid. Whether or not you personally agree (and generally, I don't), words with the same meaning can carry greater emotive weight. "Screw you" and "darn it" are two great examples of phrases that have the same meaning as others which are generally considered more obscene.

I don't think people should be offended by the word rather than the meaning.... but when an insulting term is used, it's generally assumed that the person using it is trying to be insulting, not give criticism.

Situation a) "Hey noob, you only did 50k dps on that pull, you need to learn how to play the game."
Likely result, regardless of who you're talking to: Anger or defensiveness, possibly hurt depending on sensitivity.
Likelihood that the person will be willing to accept advice, or try to improve themselves as a result of your statement: Very slim.

Situation b) "Hey, I noticed that your dps is well below what your character is capable of... would you be interested in any tips or advice?"
Likely result: Will vary based on the attitude and nature of who you're talking to. Could be good or bad.
Likelihood that the person will be willing to accept advice, or try to improve themselves as a result of your statement: Depends, but much better than in situation a.


So... what is your intent with making these statements? Do you want to help these players? Do you want them to improve themselves? Or do you just want to take your frustration and condescension out on them?? Because if you're going to purposefully use insulting terms and remain purposefully ignorant to how they'll be taken, even if you yourself would not take them that way, that last option is all people are going to see in your words.

[Jyggalag]

Dumbed down?

It wasn't particularly skillful or hard to click on a website and reforge your entire set every time you got an upgrade.

It was just an annoyance. The game is intended to be fun, it is not fun to open up Mr Robot and reforge your gear constantly, it's not immersive and it's not exciting

The game wasn't designed to have you spend time clicking out of it to reforge your entire set everytime you got an upgrade, hence why it's being removed.

I agree on the reforge part but as a resto druid (think haste breakpoints) it has become integral. The game wasn't originally aimed at "lazy" players, and over the years has done more and more to attract them. They happen to be the majority now and scream that some of the features that actually require effort annoy them and should be removed.

But we digress, and should leave that discussion for another thread.

[Alphadruid]

What's your point and how does that have anything to so with what I said? I don't care rather or not if the majority are self-entitled bads, there are still those who aren't. They shouldn't be treated like shit just because you hate the former.

Theses day, by definition, I'm a casual. Guess what? I still pull good DPS in LFR. The only thing in raids that annoys me are the asshats who start giving people shit. If I accidentally mess up on a mechanic, the second the idiot opens his mouth, part of me wants to die just to spite him and I know I'm not the only person in that regard. You cannot play flawlessly 100% of the time, shit happens. Players who feel the need to insult others are just toxic.

Back when I played WOW it wasn't not playing flawlessly that provoked frustration. It was obvious displays of non-effort or extreme incompetence which were then justified by the usual "we are the majority" argument bad casual players love to make to justify their failure to contribute to groups.

[Louis CK]

If people have a child to attend to, they should SAY something. Reasonable amount of time given, then kick. However they should not be constantly coming and going, they should not join the group if they cannot commit. Stuff pops up, yea, but doing it EVERY BOSS either you need to leave the raid to attend to whatever, or you aren't trying. If they need to go they should speak up. If its a real emergency they won't be ready after 5 minutes. It ou should go to the bathroom before raiding though, or urging a break. Not afk on trash.

Maybe they should. For me, I'm used to the game, I've learned how to type between GCD's. Not everyone is like that.

And I'm not going to expect a mother who hears her child start screaming to have her first thought as "I should let these random strangers who are calling each other noobs know that I'm going to attend to my child." And yeah, when she gets to her kid and he was just scared because he saw a spider, all is well and she's back. But at that moment when her kid screams out of nowhere, yeah, that's an emergency to her whether you agree with it or not.

Communication in general is good, and it should happen. I'm not arguing against that. But when the first reaction of almost everyone you see in LFR is "OMFG BOOT THEM THEY HAVEN'T MOVED IN 3 SECONDS" then there's a problem. Refusing to communicate and go AFK "just because you can" is an asshole move, sure.

All I'm suggesting, is that instead of complaining about and contributing to the problem, at least try to give the benefit of the doubt once in a while. If you don't try make things better, you can't expect anyone else to.

[Terridon]

Noob implies a lack of skill reflecting that of a new player. Kill yourself had no connection to the game. Get our head out of your ass and stop bickering over how people say something, but rather if what they're dying has validity. If somebody is doing badly, callin them a noob gets across the same thoughts as "you're doing really badly". Yet people will pre themselves over one word being used. How about people try, idk, seeing if the statement is true? If the player IS showing a lack of skill?

This entire thread is about how you should make sure that whenever you say something, you only use gentle terminology, or you are an elitist. That is fucking dumb. There is a difference between adding other words and phrases not connected to the game, like calling people faggots, and just not changing your syntax because something may offend people more.

And little of this has connection to elitism in the first place. It is people who cannot take criticism unless you start a 15 minute friendly conversation before bringing it up, then they will Likey get made anyway.

To you maybe. Noob just means they're new. Nothing else.
You're still not reading the posts. Nobody said what you're claiming. At least not for the past 15 pages. Even my post you replied to said nothing of that sort.
I said nothing about 15 minutes friendly chatter. I said give the reason, and put swearwords in if you want people to care less about what you say.
I talk about most of the rude people being rude without having a fucking idea what they talk about. If you say "noob", you're almost certain to be one of those.
This entire thread is about not being an asshole. Not about using gentle terminology.
I would honestly appreciate if you start reading this thread over again, word for word, instead of taking your own interpretion of it. I get that you're on a cellphone with a bad screen, but that doesn't excuse you from reading what people say, instead of what you want to think.

I said it could be constructive even with the swearwords if you put in the reasoning behind (otherwise you're just an asshole that flames), but it works better without acting like an obnoxious asshole, and plainly give them the reason, since they don't get pissed of at you.

You're making things up that people never said, because you want to defend screaming and namecalling, from how i see it. Noob is in the soft end, but since it doesn't add anything it's a garbage word to post towards people regardless.

If you want to be that way. Suit yourself, but i'm not going to be nice to you for it either if i meet you in a lfr and you flame some person. In all honesty i will flame you so much that you either ignore me or think it's not fun *shrug* It satisfy me more than ignoring people.

[miffy23]

Nitpicking single digit DPS or whatever in LFR is one thing, which btw is something you can just - you know, ignore. The other side of the coin is tolerating leechers and afkers and simply terrible players that drag the group and the fun down, in LFR and Battleground.

Yes, you are free to be as clueless and as bad as you want to be - everyone else is also free to tell you how bad you are or what you're doing wrong, and if you come back with saucy attitude then you'll get flamed for it too.

"Elitists" aren't so much a thing as people feeling hurt over being told what they're doing wrong way too easily.

[Valech]

I always wonder who hurts my fun in this game more: People who constantly and greatly fail at their role or people, who are vocal about the first. In my experience it´s the first group, since you can simply ignore the second. What you can ignore is a tank, that refuses to taunt Lei Shen or drag him to another Pillar, a DPS that believes he *has* to drop that ground effect under the group or a healer, that not even bothered to drag that dispell out of his spellbook.

Don´t get me wrong. I am not talking about those people who are not min-maxing their gear, or used the wrong weapon enchant, or pull less damage then a Ilvl 570 Tank. I am talking about those people, who regard this as a single player game, that happens to have other players around. They don´t care about anything, including their behaviour, dps/hps output, boss mechanics or, which is the worst, advice that they are given by other players. You may be able to compensate a few of them, whereever you may encounter them. But they use to cluster up.

The bad thing about this all is, that it seems, that everyone, who calls them out for their bullshit is regarded an elitist. But I am no elitist for refusing to taunt that mob from that shaman, who pulled for the 10th time in a row. I refuse to proceed taunting if my co-tank is one of those tanks, who seem to have macrobound taunt to each of his abilities.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure the OP here is just someone going "Here...have some petrol...and a match...and some more matches...oh and some more petrol" and having a merry time laughing at the responses. Given that there's far too many types and skill levels to generalize, and any system of this ilk is far more likely to penalise someone who doesnt deserve it, add considerable time onto any run,( which I can't imagine blizzard wanting to do, since LFR is already such a stripped version of the raid to give the casuals a chance to see the instances) and generally be unreliable against the players you describe, who are simply a vocal minority.

Realistically, LFR is a powderkeg, if you choose to let the inevitable explosions bother you, then LFR isn't the place for you. I personally can't stand LFR, so I just don't do it. If you want to do it, and you're obviously aware of the players you might encounter, suck it up, let them be, maybe even try not standing in the fire and see if it helps. I can't see a way that playing badly is fun either, there's a massive difference between min-maxing and just mashing random buttons with no clue, for the majority of players neither of those ways is all that fun. But surely satisfaction has to come from at least playing your class well enough that anyone with a brain won't rage at you. And if when you're at least doing a couple of hundred K dps someone still rages at you, you can slap them on ignore and move on.

[WurstKaeseSzenario]

To be honest. I'd rather be in a battleground with 9 people playing good and being douchebags than in a battleground with 9 people being nice and playing crappy.

Also it is possible to report other players for harassment or crude language but it is not possible to report them for "deliberately playing crappy".