Remove Elitists From Raids and Battlegrounds

[wych]

What do you want? Signed research documents with polling methodology and a wide sample spread? Do you have a shred of common sense in your head? The game has lost millions of subs, the community is awful and casual. These are facts that are easily observed from playing the game or reading forums dedicated to the game.

What I find shocking is that you come to an internet forum that's sole purpose is to allow people to air their opinions, yet you expect to find hard scientific data here instead. You're going to find a lot of opinion backed up by observation on any forum, and I think you will have a very hard time proving me wrong when I say the game is more casual than its ever been, its losing players at steady rate and the community is garbage. Now give me some "proof" that any of those statements are untrue.

When you start making statements like "there's no real challenge in the game", "95% of the community is bad casuals", "all real gamers have left" especially about a game you no longer player, you have to make more of a point past "because I said so".

Yes this is an internet forum, and it is the place for opinion, i'm not some fanboy who loves what is a company making profit off me, I get angry at Blizzard's choices sometime's just like you and everybody else does.

My point more was, you are currently posting on a forum of a game you don't play, apparently have no intention of playing, and with which you have a very angry axe to grind. I'm just curious as to what you hope to achieve past blanket whining and spouting incorrect statements? Do you think the community on here will come out in support, realise you're right and quit the game? I just don't get it, for example you have a pony avatar, personally I don't like my little pony, so I wouldn't concern myself with going to a my little pony forum to preach about how shite it is and explain why it's so bad, i'd just avoid such a forum. It just seems counter intuitive to me unless the overall intention is to cause offence and troll

[Terridon]

Possibly.
I'm just sick of going into LFR's, trying to be nice, explaining strategies, and then being called a dick because some 8/14 normal kid thinks he knows the best way to do a fight.
I suggest to lust on pull on Nazgrim in LFR. This usually results in 3 or 4 people screaming about how I'm wrong.
On one such occasion I said something like "Well, half our DPS die to the first shockwave, so if they're alive for lust at least we get a little more."
I was then berated for being a dick to people. "Just cause they're casual doesn't mean you can yell at them!"

I always try to get the bloodlust at the 10% marker in lfr, because you never wipe to enrage, unless the boss gets healed. You wipe from people being overrun at the last 10% so i disagree with your strategy for lfr. It's not coordinated, and i've had far more succes with the other.
People can't die to a god damn shockwave in lfr unless healers have been sleeping through 2-3 in row :P

[BrerBear]

What do you want? Signed research documents with polling methodology and a wide sample spread? Do you have a shred of common sense in your head? The game has lost millions of subs, the community is awful and casual. These are facts that are easily observed from playing the game or reading forums dedicated to the game.

The simple counters to your conjecture that the game has lost millions of serious players:
1) In its heyday, only a small percentage of players even raided. There weren't millions of them to lose.
2) Blizzard has come out and said that most players never even make it to max level.

The community has definitely gotten worse, but IMO only because there aren't enough penalties any more to keep the rude players contained.

[xixixviixiiii]

And yes, it is usually the highest dps or heals doing the yelling. Like we should thank them and bow down for carrying the group. Of course that isn't all chart toppers, but more often then not when the bitching begins They are in the top slot, or pretty near it. Why would someone with low dps/hps bitch and moan? It would be too easy to call them out.

I rarely see higher DPS & HPS bitch unless there are serious issues happening (such as an obvious lack of understanding of the basic boss mechanics, in which case complaining is reasonable). In the vast majority of cases I've seen it is always a middle-of-the-pack DPS or healer and most of the time it is directed at a tank-- often for reasons that aren't even their fault. With the dungeon journal alone, there is really no reason people should be so clueless. You can take one minute of your time while waiting in queue looking over the basic boss abilities.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Yes to your first question, because it's your biased ideas of how it is, and you have not even a trace of idea why it really is. Thanks for trying with a "lol-i-can-find-proof-but-wont"-attempt

Here's your proof:

WoW has lost 5 million players since it went casual in Wotlk. The easier the game, the more it drives away gamers who want depth and challenge. Which thus leaves behind the simpletons who now form the delightful community we have today.

[Bonsaii]

I always try to get the bloodlust at the 10% marker in lfr, because you never wipe to enrage, unless the boss gets healed. You wipe from people being overrun at the last 10% so i disagree with your strategy for lfr. It's not coordinated, and i've had far more succes with the other.
People can't die to a god damn shockwave in lfr unless healers have been sleeping through 2-3 in row :P

I've seen it. But I assume they've got like a 300k health pool or something.

[ShimmerSwirl]

When you start making statements like "there's no real challenge in the game", "95% of the community is bad casuals", "all real gamers have left" especially about a game you no longer player, you have to make more of a point past "because I said so".

Yes this is an internet forum, and it is the place for opinion, i'm not some fanboy who loves what is a company making profit off me, I get angry at Blizzard's choices sometime's just like you and everybody else does.

My point more was, you are currently posting on a forum of a game you don't play, apparently have no intention of playing, and with which you have a very angry axe to grind. I'm just curious as to what you hope to achieve past blanket whining and spouting incorrect statements? Do you think the community on here will come out in support, realise you're right and quit the game? I just don't get it, for example you have a pony avatar, personally I don't like my little pony, so I wouldn't concern myself with going to a my little pony forum to preach about how shite it is and explain why it's so bad, i'd just avoid such a forum. It just seems counter intuitive to me unless the overall intention is to cause offence and troll

Speaking of conjecture and made up assumptions, why do you keep claiming I don't play?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Poor wording as I assumed people would see what I meant. "If they are such a massive hindrance" is what it should read. If you've been reading my posts to you, I've made that clear, but oh well.

Also, you find it sad that I'm defending someone who barely affects the raid and is enjoying it however they want? How odd. You are just making this into a bigger issue than it is.

No, thats the first time you've used massive.

You're just defending scumbags, yes, thats sad.

[Terridon]

Here's your proof:

WoW has lost 5 million players since it went casual in Wotlk. The easier the game, the more it drives away gamers who want depth and challenge. Which thus leaves behind the simpletons who now form the delightful community we have today.

That's not a proof. Go look it up, smart guy, instead of wasting my time with "wow lost 5 million players because <insert random crappy input>".
Raided in vanilla, and it wasn't hard at all. There's more things that hurts more now. Your argument it so god damn invalid :P

Edit:
On top of that wow lost a large chunk of the playerbase during Cataclysm that tried to turn more hardcore. Which blizzard have said many times over. How's that for your horrible idea of a proof?
It turned UPwards during wotlk, when they went casual. Gnrr! Seriously *stab*.

[Automatic]

Possibly.
I'm just sick of going into LFR's, trying to be nice, explaining strategies, and then being called a dick because some 8/14 normal kid thinks he knows the best way to do a fight.
I suggest to lust on pull on Nazgrim in LFR. This usually results in 3 or 4 people screaming about how I'm wrong.
On one such occasion I said something like "Well, half our DPS die to the first shockwave, so if they're alive for lust at least we get a little more."
I was then berated for being a dick to people. "Just cause they're casual doesn't mean you can yell at them!"

I very much understand that it can be difficult avoiding being snide, or rude even if you intend to be humorous, which is what I guess you intended in your example. But if people don't try then nothing will ever improve and I'm pretty sure neither side are particularly happy with how things are currently.

If good players can't help bad players and bad players wont accept help from good players then the community will only get more divided than it is currently. Bad players will grow to resent good players even more than they seemingly do currently and good players will have milliseconds worth of patience for the fuckups they have to endure in LFR. Eventually LFR will devolve into a complete shitfest of bitching 100% of the time. It might still get completed, but it will not be even remotely enjoyable for anyone. That will possibly lead to it not being run by many, which in turn will either vastly increase LFR wait times, or its removal entirely (or bastardisation in some way).

To be honest we might already be at that tipping point. I don't know. I had a long break at the start of MoP and have only recently started playing again (DS got to me). All I know we can do, is try. We are just people after all and talking isn't difficult.

[ShimmerSwirl]

That's not a proof. Go look it up, smart guy, instead of wasting my time with "wow lost 5 million players because <insert random crappy input>".
Raided in vanilla, and it wasn't hard at all. There's more things that hurts more now. Your argument it so god damn invalid :P

Its really easy to say "you're wrong" and not provide any alternative possibility yourself. So let me ask you smarty pants, why has WoW lost 5 million players since wotlk? You must know since your positive that im wrong.

[Lime]

No, thats the first time you've used massive.

You're just defending scumbags, yes, thats sad.

Massive, big, not small. Choose a word. My posts back up my meaning.

Do you go into LFR with BiS gear? If not, you're only slowing down the raid for everyone else and thus, you too are a scumbag. See anyone can make any issue seem bad.

[Strafir]

It's fascinating to see someone, or in this case a large number of people, twist and turn things and actually think that the guy who's playing the game properly and advancing the group is the problem and not the guy who's playing a group activity at his own terms. I get that some people simply can't take criticism, but atleast realize and accept that you are the one who's dragging the game down with you.

Raiding is strategic group activity which doesn't leave alot of room for "I will do whatever I feel like". Bosses have a set amount of health and to score kills every single DPS needs to be doing their part, and if you aren't then you are a problem that should be dealt with.

Fcking inferiority complex..

[Terridon]

I very much understand that it can be difficult avoiding being snide, or rude even if you intend to be humorous, which is what I guess you intended in your example. But if people don't try then nothing will ever improve and I'm pretty sure neither side are particularly happy with how things are currently.

If good players can't help bad players and bad players wont accept help from good players then the community will only get more divided than it is currently. Bad players will grow to resent good players even more than they seemingly do currently and good players will have milliseconds worth of patience for the fuckups they have to endure in LFR. Eventually LFR will devolve into a complete shitfest of bitching 100% of the time. It might still get completed, but it will not be even remotely enjoyable for anyone. That will possibly lead to it not being run by many, which in turn will either vastly increase LFR wait times, or its removal entirely (or bastardisation in some way).

To be honest we might already be at that tipping point. I don't know. I had a long break at the start of MoP and have only recently started playing again (DS got to me). All I know we can do, is try. We are just people after all and talking isn't difficult.

In all fairness lfr isn't so bad as people make it here. You get the occasional dickhead, but it's not there every time at all, and a lot of those can be shut up by addressing them directly.

- - - Updated - - -

Its really easy to say "you're wrong" and not provide any alternative possibility yourself. So let me ask you smarty pants, why has WoW lost 5 million players since wotlk? You must know since your positive that im wrong.

Read the edit. I post it for you since you clearly missed it. If you keep blabbering, i find the list of how many players we had during when, because clearly you don't know that.
Anyway, the edit in my post that was there 30 seconds after the main post:

Edit:
On top of that wow lost a large chunk of the playerbase during Cataclysm that tried to turn more hardcore. Which blizzard have said many times over. How's that for your horrible idea of a proof?
It turned UPwards during wotlk, when they went casual. Gnrr! Seriously *stab*.

To translate for you. During the part you hated most we got more and more users. Towards the end it began falling, a bit as it always does during the end. Cataclysm came and it went a bit up very shortly, and then people began leaving. It very much contradicts your faulty(I can say this because you're WRONG :P ) idea of how things happened.

Edit:
Screw that. Now i got so annoyed with you that i found the graph. I was slightly wrong. It's even further from your idea than i remembered.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Massive, big, not small. Choose a word. My posts back up my meaning.

Do you go into LFR with BiS gear? If not, you're only slowing down the raid for everyone else and thus, you too are a scumbag. See anyone can make any issue seem bad.

No, see the difference is I try my best, avoid bad mechanics, and I'm friendly/helpful. Please don't straw man. This is about effort.

You said they aren't a hindrance. You didn't say big, not small or anything else. Thats false, because they are hindering. It causes wipes.

[Lime]

No, see the difference is I try my best, avoid bad mechanics, and I'm friendly/helpful. Please don't straw man. This is about effort.

You said they aren't a hindrance. You didn't say big, not small or anything else. Thats false, because they are hindering. It causes wipes.

I say that because the difference between your DPS and the DPS you'd have at BiS is probably the same difference of those who barely do anything compare to the average DPS of LFR. It's not a strawman, they're both equally as petty.

Also:

It's LFR. 5 people can be AFk and you'll still complete the dungeon. It barely affects anyone else.

[prwraith]

I guess I assume if your standing in fire so long that a mentally handicapped person would have realized they were in fire and still didn't move. You probably shouldn't be playing..

[Deleted]

Why should casuals that queue lfr get carried by everyone that knows what they are doing? even when the "casuals" get told what to do they still find a way to cause a problem whether it be hitting the wrong mob when told not to or doing pointless things like tunneling bosses when adds are up.

I'm not a player that queues lfr but that seems to be the general idea as to what happens, casuals queue lfr for example and expect to be handed items

/stare at the cloak.

Maybe a way to counter this would be to have a different lfr mode for the people that queue it on alts, ilvl is a poor way of getting people in to a raid, no matter the ilvl the player can still be horrible.

People understand shit happens but when you continuously disrupt other peoples "fun" shouldn't you be kicked for being shit? Agreed the rudeness of chat doesnt help situations but when people refuse to listen they shouldnt be there in the first place, and without sounding like a massive douche it got worse when timeless isle came out, lets hand everyone 496 gear and go into an lfr and afk on the boss doing 50k dps.

It's even worse when people dont understand bad stuff on floor = bad.

The worst part about lfr in particular is when you try to explain tactics to certain people they refuse to listen, especially when there's a language barrier it's 10x worse.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I say that because the difference between your DPS and the DPS you'd have at BiS is probably the same difference of those who barely do anything compare to the average DPS of LFR. It's not a strawman, they're both equally as petty.

Also:

False, its a straw man. We aren't talking about BiS. We are talking about effort. Purely effort. Its ad that people want to be carried so badly. Do you get your little sister to play RPGs for you, so you can sit and eat your chicken out of a bucket?

[Part]

you guys know most of those "elitists" are just casuals that get angry very easy

lmao you gettem forum heroes