Would you be down with this?

[Roxxy]

Basically I'm in a guild I really love but we have been stuck on Garrosh for a long time. One dps is doing ~ 80k and we need all the dps we can get to down him. This person is a really nice person but we really need more dps to get the kill. The raid leader won't replace this person or ask them to rotate in as a healer which is their main role that they can perform satisfactorily with. Would you be ok with this? I'm starting to feel like I'm so bored of Garrosh wiping +70 times now. I can't help thinking that if I wasn't up to par in the group in my role I would ask to do what I was good at and be rotated in out of respect for the group. Also I think the raid leader wants to attempt heroics after we get garrosh kill with our team setup I've seen the same class as me do around -50k dps than I do and get a kill on Garrosh it just makes me despair because I really want that title and mount. Also this person can't really kill an add on their own so I have to down sometimes 3 minion adds on my own each time. I feel like the raid leader by trying to be nice to this person who has been with us a healer all through the other fights is sideling me and team really, I can't understand why we can't just rotate heals.

[Raiju]

I'm surprised your word doesn't carry more weight if you are carrying them as hard as you suggest. Therefore I am skeptical.

Why can't another healer dps without benching players?

[Roxxy]

Yes I wonder myself too. Both the other healers have viable dps that do quite nice numbers. I don't know why they chose this specific healer but I think it's because that healer does the lowest hps out of the three healers and the healers said if they had to two heal it they wanted the best people for the job. I just wish the raid leader would give us the best possible set up to improve our chances the most. That's basically all I ask, the best possible setup to maximise our chance of success.

[7seti]

Can't really give advice without knowing more about the situation. What class is this guy? Does he have terrible gear for his DPS spec, or is it purely a lack-of-experience problem? If the latter, have you tried giving him advice on how to improve?

[Deleted]

There's gotta be more to it. If not, your RL is just plain ignorant.

[Roxxy]

Yes apparently he has been talking to the best players of his spec on realm. He has good gear ilvl 560 with legendary cloak. Actually I will go ask my raid leader now why can't one of the other healers with a good dps toon dps and see what he says. I just hope if they swap this guy in back to heals the tanks don't start dropping dead. Thank you for that advice. A fellow dps asked the gm why we couldn't get another dps to replace this guy and the gm said we had to deal with it but really I think it's a bit unfair.

[Synstir]

It is my believe that this is the starting point of the decline in the community we see today..... starting point, pls note this.

Now, performance gets in the way of friendship and one started already thinking about replacing.
Add to this and you'll see that we'll get to the point, with the community, where we're at now. And everybody is complaining about community-sense.

[Deleted]

Is the guild marketted as a social guild, that raids? In which case, I would not be asking someone to step down / be replaced just to kill a fight.

Is the guild marketted as a progression / raiding guild? Then yes, I would expect the leader to pick the best team that could actually down the boss.

[MerinPally]

It is my believe that this is the starting point of the decline in the community we see today..... starting point, pls note this.

Now, performance gets in the way of friendship and one started already thinking about replacing.
Add to this and you'll see that we'll get to the point, with the community, where we're at now. And everybody is complaining about community-sense.

It's been like this since forever. Sure being friends is all well and great but if you want to progress you cannot always do it with that one weak link. Noone is saying that weak link can't raid at some point but progression is not for them. It happened in my guild and those people eventually turned around and admitted they were holding us back and stepped out and merely joined in alt raids or farm runs.

Sure it's bad you can say but don't forget how reasonable people are in friendship groups.

[7seti]

It is my believe that this is the starting point of the decline in the community we see today..... starting point, pls note this.

Now, performance gets in the way of friendship and one started already thinking about replacing.
Add to this and you'll see that we'll get to the point, with the community, where we're at now. And everybody is complaining about community-sense.

Take off the rose-tinted goggles, buddy. Replacing under-performing raiders is a concept as old as raiding itself.

[Giscoicus]

H-how? I mean...80k?

What class is he? Is their gear optimized or are they just grabbing whatever pieces they can regardless of stats on it? I mean I could see a shadow priest with very low haste not doing well...

- - - Updated - - -

Take off the rose-tinted goggles, buddy. Replacing under-performing raiders is a concept as old as raiding itself.

replacing those who cannot preform is a dated concept. Carry them instead

From the OP it seems like people have tried to help this guy. Some people just cannot learn to play, some specs just don't click with people. However if he cannot get better then you need to bench him. 80k is severely underperforming for Garrosh. I mean 80k is acceptable for LFR, not normal.

- - - Updated - - -

Is the guild marketted as a social guild, that raids? In which case, I would not be asking someone to step down / be replaced just to kill a fight.

Is the guild marketted as a progression / raiding guild? Then yes, I would expect the leader to pick the best team that could actually down the boss.

If say having a solid raid group and 13/14 progression qualifies the guild as raiding. Those in the raid group are expected to preform. Friendly guilds with a raid team are great, but the raid team is still a raid team.

[Synstir]

Take off the rose-tinted goggles, buddy. Replacing under-performing raiders is a concept as old as raiding itself.

I know that and as someone said earlier: if this was a progression guild, yeah replacing should not be an issue.

but, it doesn't sound to me as a progression guild. The OP should be quite a contributor in this guild and he is saying that he THINKS the RL wants to start HC raiding hereafter... meaning, he doesn't know for sure.
It is my idea, and i could be wrong, that in a progression guild it should be known and clear, right?

The other thing is that after that many wipes, he seems to be the only one complaining. If the whole team was complaining, something had been done already.

These are the reasons, I posted what I posted [thinking these are a group of friends raiding casually]

[Niku]

While being nice to one person, it's rude towards at least 8 others. It's not okay.

[Rivellana]

If you're serious about raiding, there's a couple things I would try to do first.

Try to help the low dps member and see if you can't make him better. If that absolutely won't work, I'd try presenting every possible option that I could to the raid leader and see if they would accept any of them. If that wouldn't work either and I really wanted to stay in my guild, I would look for a carry for the kill/title and let the raid leader know you desperately want it and won't be raiding with the guild that week since they won't accept any of your solutions.

They will get mad, sure...but maybe they'll finally see your point. If they kick you for it, they're probably doing you a favor since you won't have to put up with that anymore. If you stay with the guild but you've gotten your carry, you will at least have your title and kill.

[-Superman-]

If the gear is good, and has been gemmed/chanted/socketed w/e, I would say it is likely their rotation. They are just hitting buttons instead of building the DPS and proc'ing at the right moments. Maybe Bitten's Spellflash might help them get used to a good rotation. Also, that rotation is built from Icy-veins website. Might not hurt to have them check that out.

[Breccia]

I start with the Obligatory Elitist Statement required by WoW Forum RUle #1337:

*ahem*

"80k? I can fart and do more than 80k. I was doing five times that in all blues bla bla noob, bla bla nerf warlocks, bla bla bla have to improvise."

Ok, now that that's out of the way:

A lot of us have seen this before. Someone who is a liked member of a group, but who isn't doing the job for some reason. Not enough DPS is a common one, as well as low heals, not interrupting or CCing, failing at mandatory raid mechanics, or standing in fire. Nobody likes to cut a friend. And nobody likes to chain fail after fail after fail, especially if it is, in fact, one person's fault. (See also: tanks in LFR).

In my personal experience, here's the issue: failing at a raid boss is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. Someone who is, to use the topic at hand, that deep into Normal mode raiding, they've had demonstrable experience with raiding in general, as well as that boss specifically (you did say 70 pulls, right?) And if they're still doing 80k at that point, they're just not taking it seriously.

Now it's quite possible, hopefully likely, that their low damage is because they're thrown in as offspec. That's still a problem, but an understandable one. I can tell you this: if someone said "here, use my healer for a few pulls while I run out for pizza" I'd be freaking horrible at it. It'd probably be about 30% healing the right target, 60% healing the wrong target, 10% shouted explitives and I'd waste my battlerez on a dead critter. But if I knew I would be required to do it often, I'd take the time to study up on the rotation and practice. If I didn't think I could do the job, I'd refuse. This raider of yours might be in a bad situation. But willingly remaining in that bad situation, without doing anything to make it better, is still a problem.

Sometimes the RL has to make some tough decisions. Making people play their offspec, or sitting out, are two of them. You can't bring 5 heals and 3 DPS to any fight at level and expect to win, unless the 3 DPS are Raegwyn and 2 warlocks. But when a decision made has proven to be bad, you are doing a disservice to the group by not bringing it up, preferably with a solution. Force the RL's hand, make them explain why sticking with a demonstrably failed strategy is worthwhile. If the RL knows there is a problem, and refuses to do anything about it, trust me: you're not the only one who knows, and won't be the only one to jump ship.

A word of caution: make sure it's the low DPS that's the issue before making a stink about it. Last night, one of the healers in my group was throwing around fantastic heals up to the point where the first Set to Blow killed him 7 pulls out of 10.

[Roxxy]

Just wanted to update everyone and say thanks for giving me the courage to really talk to the raid leader and put my point across. I managed to get him to return 'the healer doing 80k dps' back to healing and change another healer into dps who did twice that amount of dps with worse gear. Bit of an argument because the healer wasn't pulling good hps numbers and raid leader wanted the two strongest healers to stay healing but I stuck to my guns and the change happened and finally we started getting consistently to phase 3 on garrosh and after some time getting used to the empowered mc's we downed garrosh a couple of days ago with everyone alive at the end.