Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[Waffen]

bullshit. they were absolutely doable in blue gear. it just required some actual strategy and proper execution instead of rushing through it.

Depends which one you went too. Slave Pens and Mechanar were extremely easy, Durnholde and Black Morass were intermediate, Hellfire's required specific class combinations for CC, and all of the Auchindouns would take you three hours of wiping to get to the end.

TBC heroics were 100% class role specific. You weren't clearing Heroics with a DPS Warrior, Enhancement or Elemental Shamans, or even a Feral Druid.

[Seefer]

Cataclysm heroics weren't hard they just had a lot of trash so it was mundane and 1 bad pull led to 2 rooms on you, BC style was good.

[McNeil]

So....... let me get this straight:

TBC: we made 5-mans very hard!
WotLK: 5-mans were way too hard, we made them easy!
Cata: 5-mans were way too easy, we made them hard again!
MoP: 5-mans were way too hard again, lets make them easy.... again!
WoD: 5-mans were again way too easy it just isn't fun..... so lets make them.... guess it..... hard again!

[Citronelle]

Heroics are there so you can farm points for real gear, I don't see why they should be hard, which means slow.

I think they should be more difficult, and more rewarding. Valor points should be a small benefit for completing them, so eventually, over time, you may purchase a piece of gear.

[nightfalls]

That's not very difficult at all.

VP was one of the easier ones for sure, but it could still be brutal for bad groups. The big change I like is that they are finally doing what's right.

Leveling dungeons (I don't see why they just aren't called that), Normal endgame dungeons for random groups, and Heroic endgame dungeons for organized groups. It would be a great way for newer players in pick-up (trade chat for instance) groups to learn to raid, way the fuck better than LFR. Since there are only 5 players, it's easier for experienced players who need bodies to teach newer players techniques. Everybody wins

[Slant]

Cataclysm heroics weren't hard they just had a lot of trash so it was mundane and 1 bad pull led to 2 rooms on you, BC style was good.

The BC style was good because it required teamplay and crowd control. With the monkeys taking over the forums and Blizzard thinking removing CC abilities from gameplay is going to be better for the "mainstream" orientation of the game, you'll never have good dungeons again. Why? Because those mobs would fuck you up if you pulled the entire group without sheeping/sapping 1-3 of those... imagine the outcry of the apes these days if something like that happened. I wish the return of mobs gangraping overconfident/stupid players were true, alas, I don't have much hopes for it.

[StrayFox]

So....... let me get this straight:

TBC: we made 5-mans very hard!
WotLK: 5-mans were way too hard, we made them easy!
Cata: 5-mans were way too easy, we made them hard again!
MoP: 5-mans were way too hard again, lets make them easy.... again!
WoD: 5-mans were again way too easy it just isn't fun..... so lets make them.... guess it..... hard again!

That made me chuckle, yeah Blizzard can't really decide on what to do. To be fair MoP was difficult at first, but Blizzard nerfed them later.

What they need to do is have:

Normal dungeons : Gear to prepare you for LFR difficulty.

Heroic Dungeons : Gear to prepare you for Normal Raid difficulty.

and they either need to update these dungeons to continue to give you appropriate gear each patch or add new dungeons that add appropriate gear.

EDIT: Also scenarios are still a viable way to gear your character, normal scenarios = normal dungeon loot, Heroic scenarios = LFR loot or Heroic Dungeon loot.

[Deleted]

It all depends how they handle it.

I really don't want to be PuG'ing heroics like I was at the start of Cata, the amount of time I spent in Grim Batol and Stonecore was beyond believe.

But if they make it like Normal and Heroic Scenarios I am all good, so more rewards for more effort but an easy option is available.

I am interested to see what they do with Challenge Modes, I know a lot of people don't like the timed aspect of it, so maybe they can do specific completion requirements for bonus valor.

Boss 1 - No one get hits by ability X
Boss 2 - Kill within y time.
Boss 3 - Kill without letting boss cast z.

I would prefer that to the current timed model even though I do see a place for that as well.

[Promark]

I remember when Ghost Crawler, leading up to the launch of MoP, said that heroics "would be hard."

That lasted for about a week. Then they started hotfixing nerfs.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't remember that at all. I recall them saying pretty much from the start that heroics would not be difficult because they wanted LFR to be the main gearing mechanism.

[wariofan1]

Fantastic. The Heroics has been my biggest gripe with MoP, and not because we didn't get any new ones throughout the expansion, but because they were incredibly boring. I'm glad we didn't get more Heroics than the launch ones in MoP because they simply weren't fun to me, and that's because it was literally impossible to wipe.

I'm not expecting launch Cata hard, which is a shame, but Heroics being harder is in itself a very welcome change.

[Deleted]

So....... let me get this straight:

TBC: we made 5-mans very hard!
WotLK: 5-mans were way too hard, we made them easy!
Cata: 5-mans were way too easy, we made them hard again!
MoP: 5-mans were way too hard again, lets make them easy.... again!
WoD: 5-mans were again way too easy it just isn't fun..... so lets make them.... guess it..... hard again!

Blizzard's problem is they don't follow their own vision anymore but instead do kneejerk changes according to how "the community" reacts (which is impossible to define, some people want hard, some want easy and it won't change, it's Blizzard's game and they should maintain it with a firm hand and always push what THEY think is good for the game).

[Deleted]

That's not very difficult at all.

I guess it's a bit harder than the current 4 dps + Healer system. Sometimes my guildies and I do 5 dps and rely on enh shaman heals

I am a main spec healer and I can't remember the last time I was actually in Resto for a 5 man!

[Lilija]

If they won't be a blocker for people as they were at the start of Cata, it will be ok. 5man content deserves some challenge but then again, if we don't want raiding to die out, there needs to be smooth difficulty progression for people who are new to the game. Raiding can't keep going mostly with people who started WoW long time ago and it is the start of Cata when raiding has started to get in serious trouble when it came to filling up spots after people who quite naturally quit (even tho some guilds haven't felt that effect till MoP even)

[Faroth]

Fantastic. The Heroics has been my biggest gripe with MoP, and not because we didn't get any new ones throughout the expansion, but because they were incredibly boring. I'm glad we didn't get more Heroics than the launch ones in MoP because they simply weren't fun to me, and that's because it was literally impossible to wipe.

I'm not expecting launch Cata hard, which is a shame, but Heroics being harder is in itself a very welcome change.

It sounds like Challenge Mode might have Cataclysm level of difficulty without the timed runs for some of them. I'm cool with Heroics being harder than MoP (more like Wrath was tuned, I'd say) and then Challenge Mode being TBC Shattered Halls/Shadow Labyrinth or Cata difficulty. Then on TOP of that difficulty, you have a timed run option for the highest medal.

[Deleted]

Blizzard's problem is they don't follow their own vision anymore but instead do kneejerk changes according to how "the community" (which is impossible to define) reacts.

While this is true (they can never win).

This time I think they are implementing hard and easy modes @ L100, I am interested to see what the rewards are.

[mysticx]

Awesome! But it won't last long. The noobs will cry and the devs will cave again.

This guy sums it up: Blizz will try harder heroics again, people will QQ again, and Blizz will nerf the heroics again, turn out WoD really is a time travel expansion after all! :P

Though i find it debatable how "awesome" it is to try something again that so terribly backfired the first time...

Mind you: MoP heroics are absurdly easy, so the end result is highly dependent on which difficulty standard Blizz will go with in WoD

[Faroth]

Blizzard's problem is they don't follow their own vision anymore but instead do kneejerk changes according to how "the community" reacts (which is impossible to define, some poeple want hard, some want easy and it won't change, it's Blizzard's game and they should maintain it with a firm hand).

No, the problem is when they take feedback and make positive, much needed changes....they just don't do it with moderation. The pendulum swings too far back and forth rather than getting in the right middle ground.

[Citronelle]

Depends. I'll analyze it for you by expansion by a Prot Warrior's perspective.

TBC Hard meant nobody clearing Heroics. The difficulty curve required you to be in raid epics in order to clear a Heroic, proper class set with dependable CC. (Usually that consisted of a Prot Paladin, Rogue, Mage, Hunter, and a Priest iirc) In addition, some Heroics were just not worth clearing because the time, effort, difficulty, and amount of trash needed to clear the instance was too darn high. (I'm looking at you Mana Tombs, Shadow Labs, and Arcatraz!) Heroics generally weren't fun in TBC. However, I will give them credit that they had placed really decent epics and gems on the final bosses of each heroic. That was just about the only good move.

Wrath - Heroics were extremely accessible and easy. Almost too easy. While at first before people were geared players would AoE down groups of monsters down group at a time. Later when people got more geared up they'd pull full rooms of monsters to murder at will. Bosses were extremely easy, and the heroics rewards were excellent. A lot of casuals look back to Wrath heroics as the peak of heroics because they were quick, fun, and an easy way to gear up for raids quickly. Blizzard would also release four new instances later on with increased difficulty and better loot to ease people into current raid content.

Cataclysm - Heroics were brutally hard because Blizzard listened to that small minority in the community that wanted harder dungeons for less loot. Cataclysm heroics were just stupidly hard because you had to do a lot more work for less reward. Some of the five mans were impossible to even do with pugs because the difficulty margin was raid level. (I'm specifically looking at you Grim Batol and Blackrock Depth's Fire Element boss). Should you make it to the end the bosses only dropped a slightly ilvl heroic version of items you had already gotten that didn't really make the content. I had ended up quitting WoW during the Cataclysm era because the frustration level as a tank caused me to simply quit the game.

Mists of Pandaria - Coming into Mists I've seen mixed results. Over geared groups plow through the content like they should. They massively out gear the places, so why not let them walk right through it? I've also had under geared groups who struggle to survive in even Heroic Scholomance. I wasn't around for 5.0-5.3 so I missed the initial entry level heroic period, but I figure that it was tougher at one point, but got extremely easier once people got geared. However, by the way it sounds most people just think of the content today with ilvl 550+ gear rather than before when they wre ilvl463-ilvl476. In terms of previous games, they returned epics to the heroic loot tables, but they have a low percentage rate.

If they went back to harder difficulties for heroics they need to gauge it between Wrath and TBC. You need to set a fine pace with heroics (Nobody wants to be in a heroic dungeon for more than 20 minutes at most), but at the same time set up a difficulty curve with a reward system that makes doing heroics worth while.

TBC - Being so hard, and having the TRULY "epic" item and gems at the end is what made them fun. It was hard. It was a challenge. It felt "HEROIC" . . .not some watered down sissy version, to make acquiring gear a valor point game.

Wrath - I agree with everything. AOE and easy. But I hate that heroics were easy.

Cataclysm - Loved how hard they were at the beginning. If they had dropped the appropriate ilvl at the end it would've been GREAT. This was as close as its been to TBC difficulty.

MoP - Whatever. The game has been tailored towards Casual Carl so much now, that I've accepted to roll with whatever they throw at me. I can quit, or play. Doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

It sounds like Challenge Mode might have Cataclysm level of difficulty without the timed runs for some of them. I'm cool with Heroics being harder than MoP (more like Wrath was tuned, I'd say) and then Challenge Mode being TBC Shattered Halls/Shadow Labyrinth or Cata difficulty. Then on TOP of that difficulty, you have a timed run option for the highest medal.

Emm I do think MoP heroics where tuned about the same as WotLK are you comparing end of MoP to start of WotLK?

We just vastly out gear them now, and there are no new ones tuned for higher gear.

[Twotonsteak]

I don't remember that at all. I recall them saying pretty much from the start that heroics would not be difficult because they wanted LFR to be the main gearing mechanism.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2053469

Specific section:

"The bottom line is that we want Heroics and raids to be challenging, and that is particularly true now while the content is new and characters are still collecting gear. They’re only going to get easier from here on out. We want players to approach an encounter, especially a Heroic encounter, as a puzzle to be solved. We want groups to communicate and strategize. And by extension, we want you to celebrate when you win instead of it being a foregone conclusion."