Is Garrosh Flex tuned too high for pugs?

[announced]

flex garrosh is really difficult.. i mean compared to norm the fights cake.. but with pug players that dont really know shit and dont wanna do tactics and just tunnel the boss.. yes its a difficult fight. i see so many bads wiping cause they stood in annihilate.. or they drop weapons in melee.. or they are outside of the stack point for mcs and we cant reach them quickly.. compared to paragons its tough.. blackfuse is another fight thats tough on pugs.. but then again.. its just mechanics.

[Terridon]

flex garrosh is really difficult.. i mean compared to norm the fights cake.. but with pug players that dont really know shit and dont wanna do tactics and just tunnel the boss.. yes its a difficult fight. i see so many bads wiping cause they stood in annihilate.. or they drop weapons in melee.. or they are outside of the stack point for mcs and we cant reach them quickly.. compared to paragons its tough.. blackfuse is another fight thats tough on pugs.. but then again.. its just mechanics.

Weapon in melee is a non-issue.
We're a very melee heavy raid so there's no way to avoid weapons in melee. We just move. It's really not a problem.

[Sierra85]

flex garrosh is really difficult.. i mean compared to norm the fights cake.. but with pug players that dont really know shit and dont wanna do tactics and just tunnel the boss.. yes its a difficult fight.

raid with players that understand tactics. flex is designed for that. there should be SOME organisation.

[Deleted]

I don't see any reason why a pug of players from Blood Legion, Encore, Shake Miracle and Topped Off couldn't kill heroic Garrosh on a regular basis.

That's not a pug for the purposes of this discussion. Which is whether or not Garrosh is too hard for a pug formed from Openraid, Oqueue or some equivalent.

[DeadmanWalking]

It really does not matter if Blizzard designed it with co-ordinated raids in mind because intended target markets do not = actual target markets. It may of been targeted at co-ordinated guilds but obviously lots and lots of people are using oqueue and openraid to find pug groups. Pug groups do very well on 13 out of 14 bosses so don't give me this LFR crap about not wanting a challenge either. Those who do LFR to 'see the content' are not doing the harder version in flex and the rest are there to fill gear holes or to gear up alts. Not all of them are loosers looking for easy loot. Was Flex designed for pugs? No. Is there a huge community of puggers doing it anyways? Yes. The intention does not over rule the reality.

In FFXI they introduced the Ninja in an expansion and the designers of the game intended for it to be a dps class that could shirk off damage with shadow clones. The ideal was that a ninja gets 3 shadow clones and if they get aggro the enemy would remove a clone per hit and then after a cooldown the buff could be reapplied. However what very smart players started doing was taking 2 ninjas and made them tank trade (or a warrior with ninja subjob) and what this means is that while one ninja's shadows were on cooldown the other ninja tanked until the first ninja was ready with shadows again. What this meant was that since the tanks didn't take constant damage (usually a damage spike when there was lag or an aoe went off wiping out shadows) they could trade the white mage for a red mage that could do lesser heals but more damage. The designers could of nerfed the ninja to do what they had intended the ninja to do (dps) but chose to add +enmity gear to the class so that it could hold hate longer because the ninja dynamic was an interesting tanking style that added unintentionally to the complexity of the game. So what the Ninja was intended to do was not actually what it ended up doing.

You may create a board game with teenage girls in mind but if it explodes into the 30-40 year old market because they think its retro and trendy then you have to figure out a way to serve that market as well. Unless Blizzard wants to cut out the possibility of an entire group of puggers successfully completing flex then they have to start taking pugs into mind when they design flex.

Now my casual group does flex but we don't progress very far and I am the only one who actually pursues pug groups to gear myself up outside of guild raid times. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to take a step up from LFR and yet succeed in Flex.

[PuppetShowJustice]

In FFXI they introduced the Ninja in an expansion and the designers of the game intended for it to be a dps class that could shirk off damage with shadow clones. The ideal was that a ninja gets 3 shadow clones and if they get aggro the enemy would remove a clone per hit and then after a cooldown the buff could be reapplied. However what very smart players started doing was taking 2 ninjas and made them tank trade (or a warrior with ninja subjob) and what this means is that while one ninja's shadows were on cooldown the other ninja tanked until the first ninja was ready with shadows again. What this meant was that since the tanks didn't take constant damage (usually a damage spike when there was lag or an aoe went off wiping out shadows) they could trade the white mage for a red mage that could do lesser heals but more damage. The designers could of nerfed the ninja to do what they had intended the ninja to do (dps) but chose to add +enmity gear to the class so that it could hold hate longer because the ninja dynamic was an interesting tanking style that added unintentionally to the complexity of the game. So what the Ninja was intended to do was not actually what it ended up doing.

Let us not give the FFXI team too much praise for their class work. They also openly admitted that they had no idea what to do with their pet classes and launched Blue Mage, Corsair, and Puppetmaster with no guidelines or job specific gear to suggest what the roles of those classes were. They also literally told the PUP community that we were playing our class "wrong" but never pointed out what their vision for us initially was.

NIN becoming a tanking class was the result of poor initial class design and no communication between developer and player. Even when they DID bother to attempt to communicate with us; they usually did a stunningly terrible job. Remember the video they released to explain Absolute Virtue to people?

On topic; my experience is that the Garrosh fight is largely only difficult because people fail at dealing with adds and MCs. Nothing else in the raid requires the same level of rapid response as the empowered MCs do. It's no wonder groups fail at it. And most groups tend to fall apart or stop trying (but keep pulling even with low morale / no additional communication between players).

I think, in a way, LFR sort of conditions people to just keep pulling and hope that the issues will eventually sort themselves out. Flex doesn't work that way.

[kidstechno]

It's not that the fight is too hard, it's finding players that
1) WANT to learn the fight/research beforehand
2) Adhere to mechanics
3) Optimize their character (fully enchanted/gemmed, optimized glyphs/talent)

From what I've seen, people expect Flex to be LFR+. This is not the case. One guy I grouped with literally said he had a group that didn't have ANYONE on belts for Siegecrafter and just DPSed the boss. Which is either horse manure or a really good joke. When I asked who would do belts, no-one spoke up and literally know one knew how to do it. Even trying to raid lead is frustrating because lord knows I can't make someone who's putting out <50k HPS do better without them understanding their class/stat mechanics better.

The majority of people just want to be carried, or just want to tunnel boss and let "other" people deal with mechanics. Unfortunately on some fights, that doesn't work. Garrosh is one of those fights. It requires everyone to know what to do in order to maximize effort. I'm always hesitant to join a pug Flex 4 unless I KNOW the people in it or check armories and see if they're enchanted/gemmed and have done the fight before multiple times. The other Flex raids aren't that bad mechanic wise but Flex 4 is where the difficulty definitely jumps I'd say.

[nulir]

Flex isn't supposed to be super easy although it is mostly just LFR HC so it's fair enough it's not faceroll.

But really should an end boss be easy and can it be overtuned enough? Obviously stuff I mean mechanically not bugwise like C'Thune

[Felocity]

as always it depends on the pugs themselves, pugs on my server down heroic garrosh on a regular basis.

yeeeeeahhh..

[kamuimac]

Flex isn't supposed to be super easy although it is mostly just LFR HC so it's fair enough it's not faceroll.

But really should an end boss be easy and can it be overtuned enough? Obviously stuff I mean mechanically not bugwise like C'Thune

depends what is easy for u - if the "easy" diffuclty tuning requires people to have previous "normal" diffuculty experienced/learened/defeated to clear it on "easy " then there is flaw in design somewhere - because sorry but i dont buy that groups which dont consist of player who in 90% cleared this encounter before in any form are able to clear that "eaier" diffuclty - i havent seen such group and none of my in game friends have seen it either. to the point where most stoped caring cause they clear it regulary on normal so there i no point to farm weaker looms in flex.

[abihail]

I think it's fine, so long as a someone can explain it and you are using some sort of voice chat, = easy. if you don't like the challenge, find new puggers, or do lfr.

[Leaful]

Mechanics have proven themselves time and time again, they are too hard for non-normal raiders.

[purebalance]

I almost always one shot Garrosh on OQueue. And people complain when I set my ilvl req to be 550.

Had nothing to do with it. 100% nothing to do with it.

[Tiberria]

Flex isn't really supposed to be tuned to be highly accessible to PUGs. PUGs are not what Flex difficulty is designed around; it's designed around organized groups. The tuning is absolutely fine for its intended purpose.

[Deleted]

The fight isnt overtuned... the problem is that it is actually the same fight as nHC only with less HP/DMG.

But with a proper tactic the fight is really easy because HPS/DPS wise its not tuned very hard and even mediocre groups outgear the fight. When i join Pugs i always wonder how people still dont know the right strategy for a boss that is available since 4 months or so.

Basically you need 1 person who knows the fight and makes some calls thats it.