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  1. #101
    People seem to forget that Divine clarity also makes priest to deal 40% of damage to nearby targets. I'm pretty sure that on single target or multidot fights two other talents will be better than Divine clarity. This is an option for cleave-heavy fights like Zandalari Council of elders and fights with low hp adds like Norushen, or maybe even aoe-heavy fights. Atleast it makes sense for me.

  2. #102
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm not going to be happy with it if it's optimal on more than 1 fight in two tiers. That's just my 2c.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsay View Post
    People seem to forget that Divine clarity also makes priest to deal 40% of damage to nearby targets.
    That's not how it works... It increases MB/Msp damage when they're cast on targets without DoTs.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsay View Post
    People seem to forget that Divine clarity also makes priest to deal 40% of damage to nearby targets. I'm pretty sure that on single target or multidot fights two other talents will be better than Divine clarity. This is an option for cleave-heavy fights like Zandalari Council of elders and fights with low hp adds like Norushen, or maybe even aoe-heavy fights. Atleast it makes sense for me.
    I do not read the tooltip in that way, (but can see how it could be read that way). I think it will only do the 40% to your current single target if it has no dots on it, and this is ADDITIONAL damage, not 40% of your damage to other targets in a cleave.

    If it is 40% additional damage as a cleave, then get ready to use this talent a LOT.

  5. #105

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    That's not how it works... It increases MB/Msp damage when they're cast on targets without DoTs.
    I've just reread it and yes, it was my mistake.. I guess it's indeed just an alternative rotation on pure signle target fights, or fights with fast-dying adds. No cleave or aoe sadly.

  7. #107
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forsay View Post
    I've just reread it and yes, it was my mistake.. I guess it's indeed just an alternative rotation on pure signle target fights, or fights with fast-dying adds. No cleave or aoe sadly.
    Actually, the most ideal way to use it would be on council-ish fights where we can run VT and Pain on persistent off-targets, and then use FDCL and DI to funnel +50% (FDCL) * +40% bigger MsK's or just +40% MB spam into the primary target. Alternately with small adds dying regularly, we could run FDCL + ToF + CoP for 50% * 15% * 40% - for some massive Mind Spike spam. In either case, this would allow us to throw our DP's into secondary targets without causing our Mind Spikes to wipe them (a problem we face with a purely MsK/MB rotation... what are we doing with Orbs on a Patchwerk?)

    As it stands, none of the level 100 talents are going to work as intended IMO.

    CoP seems to be meant to be used as a single target rotation talent - but as above - it could prove to be best on just about any fight type.

    Void Entropy by its very nature has to either be completely overpowered, or it will be useless. It has to do CoP / Auspicious Spirits comparable damage - possibly on as little as a single target (which means this dot alone would have to be pulling.. in today's numbers... like 80-100k DPS, which would mean average ticks of 200k if haste was bringing the tick period down to 2 seconds on average). If that's the case, on fights like Zandalari Council we would just quad-DoT Void Entropy for +400k DPS (like Demo locks with Doom) - in addition to whatever other damage we would do. The easy way to prevent this would be to target cap it like old Devouring Plague, so that only one Void Entropy can be active at a time: the problem with this is that it either has to be a clear winner for single target fights (meaning, far better than 100k dps in today's numbers), or it will never be comparable to CoP / Auspicious Spirits. It's an almost unbalanceable talent, even after DoT snapshotting is gone.

    Auspicious Spirits, overpowered as it looks to many - is actually the closest thing to sanity in the entire row. It would be easy to adjust to something like "every third spirit provides an extra Shadow Orb", or every 2nd, or 4th - until the talent works as intended. Even still - what is the niche here? On multi-dot / council fights, the above tricks for CoP could prove ideal, or Void Entropy multi-dotting could - yet that's still the ideal fight type for Auspicious Spirits too (regardless of whether its every spirit, or every third spirit) - we would want to persistently run Pain on as many targets as possible for as long as possible to maximize AS.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-12-20 at 12:42 AM.
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    what are we doing with Orbs on a Patchwerk?
    Besides the very unlikely scenario of FDCL/DI/Clarity existing together in their current form, DP ticking + Insanity > Mindspike damage, so that's why you still would DP even with Clarity (single-target)
    we would just quad-DoT Void Entropy
    Getting 12 shadow orbs in 60 seconds without the brokenly OP A.Sp is kind of impossible, so no quad dotting. Also, that spell has to be somewhere around 1 DP + DPS gained through A.Sp. That translates to a total x * DP damage over 60 seconds, and that seems rather simple to tune.

  9. #109
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Besides the very unlikely scenario of FDCL/DI/Clarity existing together in their current form, DP ticking + Insanity > Mindspike damage, so that's why you still would DP even with Clarity (single-target)
    Marginally so. Not a very exciting rotation - especcially with the possibility of running FDCL or Mindbender instead.

    Getting 12 shadow orbs in 60 seconds without the brokenly OP A.Sp is kind of impossible, so no quad dotting. Also, that spell has to be somewhere around 1 DP + DPS gained through A.Sp. That translates to a total x * DP damage over 60 seconds, and that seems rather simple to tune.
    It's not really that impossible on a multi-dot council fight like Troll Council (where you would want to multi-dot, but not necessarily ToF). With ~2 second Pain ticks, * 4 targets, * 40% mastery - that's 5.6 Pain ticks per 2 seconds, or ~1 DI proc every 6-7 seconds on average. That's 10 procs/orbs a minute in addition to any MB casts you get via the cooldown.

    If there is anything to execute, you can pull more off Death's - but even without that - that's likely 12+ orbs a minute, and Void Entropy dot cleaving would be viable for 2/3/4+ targets, not necessarily only for 4 target dot cleave (and remember this is supposed to be the 'single target' option - or so at least it seems it is meant to be).
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    ~1 DI proc every 6-7 seconds on average. That's 10 procs/orbs a minute in addition to any MB casts you get via the cooldown.

    If there is anything to execute, you can pull more off Death's - but even without that - that's likely 12+ orbs a minute, and Void Entropy dot cleaving would be viable for 2/3/4+ targets, not necessarily only for 4 target dot cleave (and remember this is supposed to be the 'single target' option - or so at least it seems it is meant to be).
    If you're getting DI procs every 6-7 seconds you can assume that's the longest you'll get to wait for the cooldown anyways, so your 10/minute is very attainable.
    I honestly expect them to limit this dot to 1 target at a time.

  11. #111
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    If you're getting DI procs every 6-7 seconds you can assume that's the longest you'll get to wait for the cooldown anyways, so your 10/minute is very attainable.
    I honestly expect them to limit this dot to 1 target at a time.
    If they do limit it to 1 target though, it has to do better DPS than CoP or Auspicious Spirits would do on a single target fight - and many people are already looking at CoP as though it were a single target choice, and Auspicious Spirits as though it would be OP for any fight type. Limiting it is just as problematic as not target capping it.
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    I honestly expect them to limit this dot to 1 target at a time.
    The only reason to limit the DoT to one target is when A.Sp is either changed to RPPM or gets an ICD.

    Entropies strength can simple be expressed by a multiple of DP casts. It costs 3 Shadow Orbs, that's 1 DP cast. It has to be an DPS gain equal to what A.SP gives you - which also are DP casts.

    Tuning A.Sp and the DoT to be equal in strength isn't a problem.

    More of a problem is what exactly is the spell for? It removes DPs healing, it doesn't work with Insanity (so no single-target?), it's an extra button, which ultimately isn't used differently from DP, but lacks any of DPs benefits. It would've been ok with Snapshotting, but without it a 60 second DoT just doesn't do it.

  13. #113
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    i have 2 questions, what is snapshotting and do spriests actually use mindspike now? I have almost never used it, im new to spriest tho.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by gutnbrg View Post
    i have 2 questions, what is snapshotting and do spriests actually use mindspike now? I have almost never used it, im new to spriest tho.
    Right now, when you cast a DoT (e.g. SWP, VT, DP), the damage every tic of the dot does is based on the stats you have at the moment you cast it, including trinket and enchant procs, and it will do that same damage until it expires or you refresh it. That is called snapshotting: The stats you have at the moment are "snapshotted" and applied for the full duration of the DoT.

    With snapshotting gone, the stats applied to the DoT are recalculated ecvery tic, so it only benefits from trinket and enchant procs while they last, even if the DoT hasn't expired yet, and the remaining tics will be weaker than when you originally cast the DoT.

    Snapshotting is (was) therefore one of the most important and interesting features of DoT classes, since knowing when to apply and refresh DoTs actually makes a huge difference between a good and a bad player. Blizzard dislikes when bad players (which are too many, me included) are too bad, because they're then discouraged from playing that spec and move on to play specs with a lower skill cap (aka arcane mage, survival hunter) resulting in spec/class representation imbalances. That's the reason for MoP's whole warlock overhaul: since warlocks had a higher skill cap and PEBCAK errors impacted greatly in a warlock's performance, their representation was very low at the end of cataclysm.

    As to Mind Spike, yes we actually use it when things will die before DoTs have a chance to run their full duration.

  15. #115
    The Lightbringer gutnbrg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Right now, when you cast a DoT (e.g. SWP, VT, DP), the damage every tic of the dot does is based on the stats you have at the moment you cast it, including trinket and enchant procs, and it will do that same damage until it expires or you refresh it. That is called snapshotting: The stats you have at the moment are "snapshotted" and applied for the full duration of the DoT.

    With snapshotting gone, the stats applied to the DoT are recalculated ecvery tic, so it only benefits from trinket and enchant procs while they last, even if the DoT hasn't expired yet, and the remaining tics will be weaker than when you originally cast the DoT.

    Snapshotting is (was) therefore one of the most important and interesting features of DoT classes, since knowing when to apply and refresh DoTs actually makes a huge difference between a good and a bad player. Blizzard dislikes when bad players (which are too many, me included) are too bad, because they're then discouraged from playing that spec and move on to play specs with a lower skill cap (aka arcane mage, survival hunter) resulting in spec/class representation imbalances. That's the reason for MoP's whole warlock overhaul: since warlocks had a higher skill cap and PEBCAK errors impacted greatly in a warlock's performance, their representation was very low at the end of cataclysm.

    As to Mind Spike, yes we actually use it when things will die before DoTs have a chance to run their full duration.
    Thank you very much for the explanation, I now know i have been losing out on dps due to not refreshing dots when my trinkets proc. Also i never use mindspike, so now ill be sure to use it when my dot ticks are going to be wasted.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Dierdre View Post
    Snapshotting is (was) therefore one of the most annoying and overpowered features of DoT classes, since knowing when to apply and refresh DoTs based on what an addon says makes a huge difference....
    Fixed that for you, it's something that should have been removed from the game several expansions ago when they first developed the tech to allowed dynamic updating. Will be so glad when all these snapshot kiddies are gone, maybe I'll actually enjoy the DoT classes again.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodravn View Post
    Fixed that for you, it's something that should have been removed from the game several expansions ago when they first developed the tech to allowed dynamic updating. Will be so glad when all these snapshot kiddies are gone, maybe I'll actually enjoy the DoT classes again.
    I agree, affdots' color coding allows any moron to play a DoT class, but the problem was not snapshotting. And despite the affdots excuse, that's not why snapshotting is gone; otherwise it'd be gone for every spec (e.g. feral). The problem was that DoT based specs are a PITA to balance because of the gap between good and bad players. A bad mage or hunter that is at least trying will never be 15% below average, while a bad shadow priest, chicken or afflock will most likely be sharing the bottom with the healers.

    With snapshotting gone, DoT specs will be the same regardless of skill, which is not fun at all IMO.
    Last edited by Dierdre; 2013-12-30 at 09:26 PM.

  18. #118
    Dreadlord soulyouth's Avatar
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    Yeah can't wait for a even lower skill cap and less dps, going to be awesome won't even need weakaura for tracking buffs.......

    tried affdots once it was meh, I rather have weakaura's for all my procs and judge myself
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodravn View Post
    Fixed that for you, it's something that should have been removed from the game several expansions ago when they first developed the tech to allowed dynamic updating. Will be so glad when all these snapshot kiddies are gone, maybe I'll actually enjoy the DoT classes again.
    Finally, a person who admires gaming over logistic and quality over quantity. Btw, I am a person playing with DoT class for years and I am no stranger to the snapshotting concept, but still I celebrate each and every day after finding out it is finally gone from the game.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Finally, a person who admires gaming over logistic and quality over quantity.
    You can just turn recount off and convince your raid leader to do it too, then you can enjoy the quality of the illusion of damaging stuff while your teammates actually kill stuff. WoW is a numbers game though, from your first dead kobold to the end boss kill.

    Good things might come from the demise of snapshotting though. With that and the MoP warlock resurrection rally over (hopefully), maybe shadow will be able to become a decent dps spec in WoD.

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