Comparing Raid Guilds

[Anzen]

I had a 100 metre race with an Olympic runner. He puts in 5 days of training every single day, whereas I put in 2.
When we had a race, he ended up beating me and getting a gold medal, I only got a silver.

Can the system be changed to recognize how amazingly I did whilst putting in less effort?

Plus the amount of:

* PRO 3 Day A Week Raiding Guild!!! *
jkz we actually raid six days during progress, but don't worry we'll hide the logs for these.

[Bonsaii]

I joined my guild because I couldnt raid much and the fact that they only riad 9 hours and never add days was huge for me.

I just find using "The Best" distasteful unless you're Paragon (10 Man), Method (25 Man), Blood Legion (US 25 Man), whoever is US 10 man. Midwinter (Alliance) is acceptable too.
It just seems.... like you need to make yourself feel better to say you're the best.
The guilds I've mentioned, everyone knows they're the best, they don't need to say it.

[Gliff]

I'm not saying they do say this, but Midwinter advertising "#1 Alliance" seems stranger then someone saying they are the "The best xhours/week".

[Libretto]

Some people outright refuse to change faction so to them the #1 guild for their faction is the one they look up to or aspire to join, I guess.

[PhillieB]

Firsts are always going to be firsts no matter if you raid 1 or 7 days a week, I don't see anything unfair with that. It would be neat however if wowprogress since it's the go-to site, could add a sorting based on actuals (hrs or days) per week so you could compare yourself "within your own bracket". We raid 3hrs a week and are 2/14 HC which I think is pretty decent considering we miss out a couple of weeks here and there due to attendance.

[Caladia]

I get a little upset when my guild fell so far behind at the beginning of this tier, when we all said we'd go in swinging to try and reach a server first. Sure, with only raiding 2 days a week and 3 hours a night, that was a far fetch dream when competing against guilds that raid 3+ nights a week with 4+ hours a night.

But when I think about it, we've done pretty damn good in the time we've spent raiding against the other guilds that have many more hours and many more attempts on bosses than we have.

[xiic]

We're a 12 hour three night guild who just beat a guild that raided 5 nights 80% of the tier and was beating us until Siegecrafter. Time isn't everything.

[Pennoyer]

We're a 12 hour three night guild who just beat a guild that raided 5 nights 80% of the tier and was beating us until Siegecrafter. Time isn't everything.

Yeah, faction/server is probably more important.. it's just a tad bit harder to recruit PVE players to an active wPVP server where you're outnumbered 5:1 .

[Noryega]

We're a 12 hour three night guild who just beat a guild that raided 5 nights 80% of the tier and was beating us until Siegecrafter. Time isn't everything.

Huge grats to your guild. Rising from 71st US on H.Malkorok to 16th US on H.Garrosh is absolutely ridiculous.

[Toxigen]

@ OP

Since the advent of WowProgress and cross-server transfers, server rank really doesn't mean shit anymore. From a recruiting standpoint, you guys will attract a much different applicant than they would. Most folks that want to raid 3 nights / week will not jump to a 4-5 night / week guild merely for progress.

That guild that just got H-Garrosh raiding 4-5 nights (20-25 hours) / week is bad, by the way.

[xiic]

We're a 12 hour three night guild who just beat a guild that raided 5 nights 80% of the tier and was beating us until Siegecrafter. Time isn't everything.

BH isn't as balanced as it used to be (DAMN YOU CHEAP SERVER TRANSFERS) but I find it hard to believe the active population on this server is 5:1 now.

Huge grats to your guild. Rising from 71st US on H.Malkorok to 16th US on H.Garrosh is absolutely ridiculous.

Thanks. As it turns out, Malkorok is pretty tricky with three melee, took us a lot longer than it should have.

@ OP

Since the advent of WowProgress and cross-server transfers, server rank really doesn't mean shit anymore. From a recruiting standpoint, you guys will attract a much different applicant than they would. Most folks that want to raid 3 nights / week will not jump to a 4-5 night / week guild merely for progress.

That guild that just got H-Garrosh raiding 4-5 nights (20-25 hours) / week is bad, by the way.

There are still a few 5 night guilds in the US that haven't killed it. Raiding Rainbows and Angry are two off the top of my head.

[Pennoyer]

BH isn't as balanced as it used to be (DAMN YOU CHEAP SERVER TRANSFERS) but I find it hard to believe the active population on this server is 5:1 now.



Thanks. As it turns out, Malkorok is pretty tricky with three melee, took us a lot longer than it should have.




There are still a few 5 night guilds in the US that haven't killed it. Raiding Rainbows and Angry are two off the top of my head.

Wowprogress has Bleeding Hollow at about 8000:2000 right now, so 4:1 in the PVE scene for what it's worth. The overall issue is that many high-caliber Alliance PVErs (of which there is already a limited supply in WoW) are loathe to have to deal with 5-10 angry Horde gunning for you while having no support wherever you go, or having your city being attacked to the point that it's too laggy to play in/do any AHing. I'd say being 13/14H and (I'm assuming) fairly close to H Garrosh is pretty impressive under such harsh conditions.

What truly holds our 25 man guild back is not our 9 hour raid week; rather, it's our ability to get quality people off-server to come to BH Alliance.

[xiic]

Wowprogress has Bleeding Hollow at about 8000:2000 right now, so 4:1 in the PVE scene for what it's worth. The overall issue is that many high-caliber Alliance PVErs (of which there is already a limited supply in WoW) are loathe to have to deal with 5-10 angry Horde gunning for you while having no support wherever you go, or having your city being attacked to the point that it's too laggy to play in/do any AHing. I'd say being 13/14H and (I'm assuming) fairly close to H Garrosh is pretty impressive under such harsh conditions.

What truly holds our 25 man guild back is not our 9 hour raid week; rather, it's our ability to get quality people off-server to come to BH Alliance.

But PVE is down on Alliance across the board, not just on BH. Wowprogress isn't really indicative of how active the overall server is.

http://wow.realmpop.com/us-bleeding-hollow.html

Realm pop says it's 60/40 which is still a damn sight better than 99.99% of all the servers out there.

[Gliff]

There are still a few 5 night guilds in the US that haven't killed it. Raiding Rainbows and Angry are two off the top of my head.

You guys also beat some other guild that raided like 20-25 hours a week.

I personally take pride in the fact that we take half the amount of attempts as some guilds around us in rankings.

[cFortyfive]

Although I understand the OP's point, this is what I think as well. I've seen it on my own server several times and I always just laugh at it. "Worlds X best guild only raiding 12 hours per week". Like who the fuck cares, you're still only 10/14 Heroic.......

How much I hate that retarded trend. What's next - least optimal raidsetup ? Worst trinket drop luck ? Not even mentioning how many guilds are telling bullshit about their raiding schedule.
Obviously guild whatever being ranked higher doesn't necessarily mean that all the players are of higher quality or that they are just better than the ones right behind them.

[Pennoyer]

But PVE is down on Alliance across the board, not just on BH. Wowprogress isn't really indicative of how active the overall server is.

http://wow.realmpop.com/us-bleeding-hollow.html

Realm pop says it's 60/40 which is still a damn sight better than 99.99% of all the servers out there.

WoW realm pop is probably the worst methodology out there for detecting server balance, because it doesn't distinguish between active and inactive players. At the very least, WoWProgress keeps track of players who are actually playing the game, even if such players are only playing PvE.

Based on our collective experience, I'd say 4:1 makes a lot of sense. Furthermore, it's not necessarily about Alliance PvE being down in WoW so much as it is about convincing a PvE player that a PvP server where he's going to experience nonstop ganks and receive little to no help in the world is the right server for him. Most people will look at Bleeding Hollow's WoWProgress numbers and say "fuck that" and go to one of the few bastions left for Alliance raiding (or just go Horde). Essentially, BH Alliance is probably the worst you can possibly have it. It's an underpopulated "server" while simultaneously also having a ton of the opposite faction trying to kill you.

PVE won't completely die out for most of next expansion, but it will almost certainly come to an end after that. I highly doubt RM will be sticking around BH Alliance for WoD. Not sure if our guild has any plans--I think this issue affects 25 mans more than it does 10, but dropping to 20 might be good enough for us to keep going on such a server.

[Floopa]

Some perspective:

Guild A raids 12 hours a week
Guild B raids 9 hours a week

Guild A kills boss 4 on their 12th hour of raiding
Guild B kills boss 4 on their 12th hour of raiding

Guild A > Guild B

Guild A raids 12 hours a week
Guild B raids 9 hours a week

Guild A kills boss 4 on their 12th hour of raiding
Guild B kills boss 4 on their 10th hour of raiding

Guild A > Guild B

Why?

Gear. Resets matter. Getting that extra week of gear, whether you want to admit it or not, is a huge factor.

[Libretto]

In the end the winner of the race is who kills the boss first, hours spent on the boss aside.

Blood Legion is not "bad" because they raid 7 days to kill bosses during progression in order to be first to kill them.

When looking for a guild, the culture of the guild and atmosphere of the raid environment are factors. We raid 4 days with a fifth optional day during progress and don't hide it. We're notably inefficient when it comes to timely pulls and time spent between wipes, though, and always have been. To fix that issue would involve replacing probably a third of our roster, which we don't want to do. So we might only pull a boss 15-18 times in a night whereas some three day guilds may pull the boss 30-35 times, as for them, their shorter schedule means making more out of the time they have. Other three day guilds may attempt to reduce the number of pulls needed on the boss by doing drills, enforcing following of a specific strat video's positioning, etc.

There's nothing wrong with raiding more or less days. I don't usually see a reason to be "proud" to have good progress on three days the same way I don't see a reason to be "ashamed" of five day progress. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the three-day guild mentioned in the OP took slightly more pulls to kill Siegecrafter Blackfuse than our guild did, but their pulls were spread over a longer period. I don't consider them "bad" because they killed the boss weeks after we did, and I don't consider us to be particularly "pro" for killing it earlier. But we did kill it 27 days earlier with three resets less gear, and in a progression race that is the thing which matters most if pure progression is what you care about.

[CptAwesome]

Gear. Resets matter. Getting that extra week of gear, whether you want to admit it or not, is a huge factor.

This. People act like hardcore guilds are weak because they use more hours per boss but doing the bosses earlier makes them far harder. It's not uncommon for guilds getting into heroics recently to breeze through the first 4 like they're nothing, and while they were never particularly difficult, the same guilds would not have had a chance of killing them so quickly with 20 less item levels across the board.

This is especially true for earlier kills, when you can expect far bigger overall upgrades. It would be quite disappointing to do your first clear and not see everyone gaining 2-3 significant upgrades whereas my guild is now working on Garrosh and we're just hoping for a couple of trinkets and then warforged copies of stuff we already have.

[Kuruption]

As a recruiting tool, I definitely look at guilds who have a lower number of days/hours and have good progress.

I just don't like it when guilds make the excuse of "yeah, we're only 11/14 because we only raid X hours per week" when it's already proven that some guilds who raid the same or less hours than they do are done with the content.