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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    This is the sort of comment that lets everyone KNOW you don't understand LFR. The fact that half the group dies to the beam doesn't matter, because the remaining half kills Durumu anyway. It's an encounter where groups wipe once at most. People still die to the beam and in purple stuff because no one can tell where the path starts, but that's a separate problem. It's a crappy design but it was nerfed within a week or two to the point where the crappy design doesn't matter.

    Only problem encounter in ToT for a very long time now: Megaera. And you're not going to be able to tell me why.
    Except when you lose healers to the beam and the tanks die. Or even worse lose tanks to the beam. Maybe you don't have enough dps to make it through the next color phase in time. There was no issue seeing the beam and the eyesores never hurt, the issue was too many bad players not even staying around as warm bodies for the good ones to carry.

    Issue with Mag was the fact that at first many didn't know the order, tanks ended up facing the raid, the cinders were not dispelled right, people stood in poison bombs, tank not tanking current he's was forgotten by healers and low dps meant that tanks would gain high stack numbers. Again soft enrage like high number of breaths meant the fight was hard for LFR

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    Nothing personal, but I'll never step into LFR to be treated like shit and/or be kicked for the most ridiculous reasons.

    Sorry, but I don't see why LFR is still in game with Flex being a casual fun way to raid.
    LFR will always exist simply because there will always be players THAT BAD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    I run flex with guildies and friends, takes 1 min to invite everyone and queue, zone in and clear in ~2 hours.



    I tried LFR when SoO came out, gave up after 3 hours wiping on Dark Shamans.

    I thought LFR was a great addition to the game, only to have players ruin it. I might be biased since I hate tanking for people who can't be arsed to do their job properly.

    Maybe I just have really bad luck with groups.

    REALLY bad luck.
    although I feel your pain maybe not to the same degree. my first introduction to dark shamans LF"R" was a two shot, but only because I solo tanked it the second pull. The entire run lasted six hours with derpdeedoo players pulling all the less than competent moves in the book with Nazgrim ALMOST causing me to leave, the players in that group were just THAT BAD.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    LFR will always exist simply because there will always be players THAT BAD.

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    although I feel your pain maybe not to the same degree. my first introduction to dark shamans LF"R" was a two shot, but only because I solo tanked it the second pull. The entire run lasted six hours with derpdeedoo players pulling all the less than competent moves in the book with Nazgrim ALMOST causing me to leave, the players in that group were just THAT BAD.
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Then you never really needed LFR to begin with. Why didn't you just run with them then?


    Why couldn't you run LFR with guildies and friends then? You would easily burn through a wing in a half hour.
    Why would anyone in an organized guild NEED LF"R" in its current incarnation?
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Bad players don't necessarily think they should be rewarded. But they also don't think that a game that doesn't reward them should get their business.

    "Should" is a two way street.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Because Flex still requires a third party addon, ever-escalating gear requirements (530 a few weeks ago, 540 now), and about 2-3 hours to organize. I queue for 5 LFR instances at once, run dailies and/or dungeons, and knock out two or three LFRs at one time in 2-3 hours. While I got my dailies done and collected my Secrets of the Empire you were still waiting for your oqueue group to get going. What's casual and fun about your way?
    There is no requirement to us a third party addon in order to put a flex group together. You are in control of the gear requirements for YOUR group that YOU put together. Take a little personal responsibility for why you cannot complete a flex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Except when you lose healers to the beam and the tanks die. Or even worse lose tanks to the beam. Maybe you don't have enough dps to make it through the next color phase in time. There was no issue seeing the beam and the eyesores never hurt, the issue was too many bad players not even staying around as warm bodies for the good ones to carry.

    Issue with Mag was the fact that at first many didn't know the order, tanks ended up facing the raid, the cinders were not dispelled right, people stood in poison bombs, tank not tanking current he's was forgotten by healers and low dps meant that tanks would gain high stack numbers. Again soft enrage like high number of breaths meant the fight was hard for LFR
    Any mechanic that does not involve standing still while blindly mashing a button is too hard for LF"R" "raiders".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Blizzard feeds them this sense of entitlement in order to keep them paying for more. Just like they offer ever increasing difficulty to real players in order to keep them mentally stimulated and coming back for more.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Bad players don't necessarily think they should be rewarded. But they also don't think that a game that doesn't reward them should get their business.

    "Should" is a two way street.
    And the issue is they are playing for rewards. Its like the people quiting because they can't fly in Draenor. Sure they might not like it but if you care more about flying on a drake than doing the raids and PvP Blizzard designs...why are you here again?

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    And the issue is they are playing for rewards. Its like the people quiting because they can't fly in Draenor. Sure they might not like it but if you care more about flying on a drake than doing the raids and PvP Blizzard designs...why are you here again?
    It's interesting to wonder about that, but the possible implication that some reasons for playing the game are illegitimate doesn't seem justified. People play for whatever reasons they have, or for no rational reasons at all. Blizzard gets their money, or they don't, regardless of what the motivations are.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's interesting to wonder about that, but the possible implication that some reasons for playing the game are illegitimate doesn't seem justified. People play for whatever reasons they have, or for no rational reasons at all. Blizzard gets their money, or they don't, regardless of what the motivations are.
    But I'm trying to understand. If you are a bad player and realize you are bad, hence in LFR difficulty, why do you expect to be downing the final boss, getting rewards, etc.? And why do you play if you are one of the people who only cares about rewards?

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But I'm trying to understand. If you are a bad player and realize you are bad, hence in LFR difficulty, why do you expect to be downing the final boss, getting rewards, etc.? And why do you play if you are one of the people who only cares about rewards?
    Simply because of "mah $15=yer$15" mentality.

    At the end of the day anyone who says they go to LF"R" to "see" the content is not being truthful to themselves or anyone else or they would not get so heated about even the mere mention of rewards, there lack thereof, or their removal.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So you want blizzard to police everything people say just so delicate little flowers can avoid getting their feelings hurt? That is some grade A bullshit right there. There is an ignore function, use it. Also, don't be so sensitive to what people say, thats no way to go through life.
    The ignore function isn't account wide and the list fills up way too quickly.

    Also, don't go through life saying offensive things in front of complete strangers. Someday it will bite you in the butt. I speak from experience. I was in a light infantry unit for almost three years so it's pretty hard to offend me. Don't, however, make the mistake of assuming that everyone has your experiences and is as numb to offensive statements as you are. Also, this has very little to do with hurt feelings and more to do with creating a pleasant experience so that as many people as possible will want to return again and again.

    The homeless dude can't smell his own B.O., but I guarantee that the restaurant owner will do everything in his power to keep him out so that his patrons can enjoy their meals. He's not going to tell them to suck it up and eat, is he? Why do you expect Blizzard to behave any differently?

    So you're not offended by anything. Good for you. That doesn't mean that others aren't going to take offense. I'm pretty sure that most players are intelligent enough to distinguish between offensive and non-offensive chat. If not then they need to spend less time reading raid strats and more time consulting books on etiquette. I guarantee that etiquette will help far more in RL than a raid strat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    But thats the thing, why do bad players even begin to think they should be getting rewarded? It simply doesnt make sense why bad players believe there should be a mode in a multiplayer game built for being bad
    Do you really have to ask why players (bad or otherwise) believe that they should have fun playing a game that they pay for? You continue to see gear as a "reward," but it's really not. It's just a carrot on a stick designed to hold players' interest. The burden is not on players to remain interested. It's on Blizzard to keep them interested. Blizzard collects their subscription fee regardless of how "good" or "bad" the player is. Ultimately it's just a game. If you want to think of gear as a personal reward, then by all means do so. You can still run your heroics for your "reward" even though you know you're going to ditch that reward about a week into WoD. Just don't expect Blizzard to share your view on that. Their primary motive is to retain subscriptions, not to stroke your ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Why would anyone in an organized guild NEED LF"R" in its current incarnation?
    That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Let me quote the post I was responding to again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago View Post
    I run flex with guildies and friends, takes 1 min to invite everyone and queue, zone in and clear in ~2 hours.
    If someone in that situation is running LFR then they are opting to do so. No one needs to run LFR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    There is no requirement to us a third party addon in order to put a flex group together. You are in control of the gear requirements for YOUR group that YOU put together. Take a little personal responsibility for why you cannot complete a flex.
    I have plenty of real-life responsibilities. I don't need to add a game to my TODO list. I have much higher priorities. Most players are in the same boat. The burden of finding things to do in WoW is not on me. I just unsubscribe, save a little money, and find other more fun things to do. Blizzard is the one losing out in that scenario. What is so hard to understand about that? If you want to take "responsibility" for playing a game then more power to you. I'd rather channel my energies into activities with tangible rewards.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  12. #292
    Deleted
    Community downfall started already from server transfers. I saw so many assholes in vanilla that became good guys once they realized that others are doing fun stuff and they cant do anything because nobody wants to group with them. Once they had incentive to try being social, many found out that the game and life in general is more fun that way and stuck with it. LFD/LFR is just enhancing the problem. You can think of similar situations in all aspects of life. Just think how easy it is to be asshole inside you car to other drivers, when you can drive away and never see them again, compared to being asshole to someone in bus or train and having to see the same guy every morning after that.

    I think Blizzard is also realizing that they can't design one game for everyone, and that they are better off getting rid of the "I'll just unsub if I need to actually play" -crowd for MMO's and design a completely different game for them. Afterall it was the hardcore elitist jerks that made WoW so big with their enthusiasm that made it viral.

    So to fix the social problems, they need to merge most of servers and then disallow server transfers, name changes, faction changes etc. Give huge incentive to use premade groups for everything like loot being superiour over LFD/LFR. This will also get rid of the bads like cutting the bad parts of the plant or tree to make it smaller but healthier overall. Then you are left with a good base that you can actually build some growth on, instead of the slow death thats going on now.

    Then Blizzard will get some reputation as a good game house back (which is needed if they want WoW 2/titans to be even close to a phenomenon that Wow was), and they can always push the bads in to getting instant gratification from diablo and HS and get their cash anyway.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Geish View Post
    I think Blizzard is also realizing that they can't design one game for everyone, and that they are better off getting rid of the "I'll just unsub if I need to actually play" -crowd for MMO's and design a completely different game for them. Afterall it was the hardcore elitist jerks that made WoW so big with their enthusiasm that made it viral.
    No, the hardcore elitist jerks did not make WoW so big. They have always been a pimple on the game's butt, irrelevant to the play experience of the great majority of average players who have churned through it over the years.

    What made WoW big was addictive gameplay, particularly for the large number of players for whom it was their first MMO, and word of mouth between non-hardcores.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #294
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, the hardcore elitist jerks did not make WoW so big. They have always been a pimple on the game's butt, irrelevant to the play experience of the great majority of average players who have churned through it over the years.

    What made WoW big was addictive gameplay, particularly for the large number of players for whom it was their first MMO, and word of mouth between non-hardcores.
    Where exactly did these non-hardcores, but to whom WoW was not their first MMO, come from to give the word of mouth? It was exactly the word of mouth from the "hardcores" (with todays standards everyone who played mmo before wow would count as one), to the players from other genres that made WoW viral. Without that the accessibility of WoW compared to other MMOs at the time would have been completely wasted.

  15. #295
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Why would anyone in an organized guild NEED LF"R" in its current incarnation?
    It's a good question and one that leads me to ask why people who lead established guilds have so many experiences to relate about it. Put bluntly: why were you there in that case?

    On a different comment about LFR existing because there will always be BAD players: Just slightly less than 50% of all players are below average. That probably climbs to 80% or 90% in relation to people who post regularly here. That's math. If you're in the top 10 or 20 percent of all players why is it necessary to repeatedly berate and implicitly insult people? Anyone can answer this if they like because I see it several dozen times a day.

    Would there be so much of a need to "fix" LFR if people who probably never belonged in it in the first place stayed out and stopped massaging their egos by going on about it?
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-12-19 at 05:26 PM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's a good question and one that leads me to ask why people who lead established guilds have so many experiences to relate about it. Put bluntly: why were you there in that case?

    On a different comment about LFR existing because there will always be BAD players: Just slightly less than 50% of all players are below average. That probably climbs to 80% or 90% in relation to people who post regularly here. That's math. If you're in the top 10 or 20 percent of all players why is it necessary to repeatedly berate and implicitly insult people? Anyone can answer this if they like because I see it several dozen times a day.

    I was keying in specifically on the word NEED. Nobody should NEED LFR"R". It was put in to assuage the hurt feelings of players who want to raid, but don't want to put in the effort to do so merely as a means for Blizzard to continue fleecing their portion of the populace.

    As someone who falls firmly below the 50% threshold of average I personally feel well suited to make general statments conserning how other "average" players just make the raiding community as a whole look bad. I do not have anything personal against lazy people but I do not agree with feeding their entitlement.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  17. #297
    Deleted
    Little off topic, but the "I paid my 15 bucks and want it all" attitude is strange and also one of the things, I think, that is cultivated by the anti-social aspect of online. I mean, I've never seen a guy show up to a bowling tourney and demand that they need to get the trophy too because they paid their entry fee, or that they need to be in the finals for same reason. Not to mention people showing up to a team without knowing even the rules or tactics of said game.

    And i've never seen anyone tell their team mates that they ruined their game by sucking, because they didn't want to put their energy on it, while still insisting to get to play. One would be laughed out or kicked out for such arguments in almost every other aspect of the life, and the though that someone would even mention their 15 bucks at such situation sounds ridiculous. I guess it's a matter of ego not allowing some people to give computer games same weight as sport for example, while the mind still wants to play them as much or even more.

  18. #298
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    I was keying in specifically on the word NEED. Nobody should NEED LFR"R". It was put in to assuage the hurt feelings of players who want to raid, but don't want to put in the effort to do so merely as a means for Blizzard to continue fleecing their portion of the populace.
    I can more easily make a factual case based on management statements that Raid Finder was created to justify continuing to spend a great deal of time and resources on making raids the primary attraction of the game. You have a supposition.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    The ignore function isn't account wide and the list fills up way too quickly.

    Also, don't go through life saying offensive things in front of complete strangers. Someday it will bite you in the butt. I speak from experience. I was in a light infantry unit for almost three years so it's pretty hard to offend me. Don't, however, make the mistake of assuming that everyone has your experiences and is as numb to offensive statements as you are. Also, this has very little to do with hurt feelings and more to do with creating a pleasant experience so that as many people as possible will want to return again and again.

    The homeless dude can't smell his own B.O., but I guarantee that the restaurant owner will do everything in his power to keep him out so that his patrons can enjoy their meals. He's not going to tell them to suck it up and eat, is he? Why do you expect Blizzard to behave any differently?

    So you're not offended by anything. Good for you. That doesn't mean that others aren't going to take offense. I'm pretty sure that most players are intelligent enough to distinguish between offensive and non-offensive chat. If not then they need to spend less time reading raid strats and more time consulting books on etiquette. I guarantee that etiquette will help far more in RL than a raid strat.
    To suggest that there is a universally accepted line that seperates "offensive" and "not offensive" is just wrong. Some people get offended at stuff that wouldn't offend 95% of people. I treat people how I would want to be treated. If they get offended then its is THIER problem, not mine. You will never get to say much of anything if you go around afraid to offend anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    I'm sorry, but that attitude won't cut it.

    On the one hand sure it is great to have thick skin, and I encourage it.

    On the other hand, disdain for the feelings of others because it's just more fun to be a self-absorbed asshole, and "you can always ignore it," no, that's not okay.
    Like I said above, "I treat people how I would want to be treated. If they get offended then its is THIER problem, not mine."

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I can more easily make a factual case based on management statements that Raid Finder was created to justify continuing to spend a great deal of time and resources on making raids the primary attraction of the game. You have a supposition.
    Oh, that is absolutely a facet of what they are doing. The functional downfall of this attempt is in NOT being able to dumb down the content so far that EVERY paying member will be able to play their role and successfully complete this content without being willing to at least put forth some minimal effort. Compound that with immature players who take the pvp mentality overboard and think nothing of seeking LF"R" groups to harass, derail, and troll.

    The ONLY way for Blizzard to make LF"R" a success is to stick to their statement of making it "movie mode". But guess what? The players who are unwilling to put in any more effort than pressing their "I" key and clicking on find group will not be satisfied with that because they feel in some way entitled to baby raid gear. This is not their fault because Blizzard was the one that put it in their head in the first place as that "carrot" designed to lure the donkey to pull the cart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    To suggest that there is a universally accepted line that seperates "offensive" and "not offensive" is just wrong. Some people get offended at stuff that wouldn't offend 95% of people. I treat people how I would want to be treated. If they get offended then its is THIER problem, not mine. You will never get to say much of anything if you go around afraid to offend anyone.



    Like I said above, "I treat people how I would want to be treated. If they get offended then its is THIER problem, not mine."
    Yep. I was in a raid going through Naxx one day and just to be flippant to a rather dumb question answered "your mamma". I had absolutely no reason for saying it other than to be funny. The person wigged out stating that their mother had been dead ten years and I should be ashamed of myself for saying anything about her.............................
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

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