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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Nobody making 250k a year is dumb enough to not understand, for the 100th time, don't stand in fire. Somebody with that kind of economic situation is clearly a capable person, smart enough to understand how to play the game, not a LFR baddie.
    First, you're oversimplifying the difficulty of raids, even LFR raids. The game is far more difficult than "don't stand in the fire." That level of play was good enough for WotLK heroic dungeons. Nowadays there are many different forms of fire, and standing in some wipes the raid while not standing in others also wipes the raid. Knowing which fire to stand in is a matter of experience and/or a priori knowledge, not intelligence. Second, you'd be surprised at what it takes to be a "resounding success" in the corporate world. Likeability, negotiation skills, and leadership count for far more than one's ability to dance a virtual avatar into and out of virtual fire.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-19 at 09:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  2. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by Automatic View Post
    Models
    Professional sports
    Musicians

    are the three very obvious ones people would generally assume to be stupid people earning large wages.

    But there are more jobs that you aren't safe to just assume because they earn a decent wage they are intelligent people. And that's just under the very wide remit of intelligence, when it's a pretty specific type of intelligence you're talking about. An artist may be able intelligently translate a view into a painting, but try to get them to do some calculus and perhaps they're lost. Are they a dumbass because they couldn't work it out, or are they intelligent because they created a beautiful work of art?
    Musicians? Great memory and reflex skill, they would be good raiders.
    Models? Yea they don't play WoW sorry to tell you that. Unless they were modeling new glasses for Tumblr or something. And I mean professional models, like runway models, not somebody who took a photo for the walmart glasses kiosk.
    Professional Athletes? Okay, you got me there. But again, the social stigma of WoW is something that most people, like professional athletes, would try to avoid. Only a couple celebrities have admitted they plated, most after having quit.

  3. #343
    Tanks did not want to tank random heroics, nor do they want to tank LFR.
    It is NOT an LFR problem, but a community issue.
    Whatever the format of the content, tanks and healers often stayed with people they knew, so reducing the numbers of those roles available and increasing the queue times for DPS.

    LFR is aimed at unorganised, random groups with no requirements for prior knowledge or experience.
    The experienced players always look down on it as being for the "bads", but with complete ignorance of what it is like going in without raid experience.
    Ok it might not contain that many, if any without raid experience on many runs but that is who it has to cater to.

    Those reaching the content for the first time, without prior experience have an awful job breaking into any higher format that reeks of elitism.
    Inflated gear requirements, the need for gear superior to that found in the content, and gear they can't get without that content, achievements they can't get without that content, etc.

    The lack of entry requirements for LFR is bypassing the worst part of the raiding community in other formats, the ego factor.

    LFR is the only end-game some people will ever be able to see.
    And so have no opportunity, nor need to push themselves to some higher standard that achieves exactly nothing.

    A huge number of problems the players blame on the game are in fact driven by their fellow players, if not in part by those doing the complaining.
    The community forced the need for LFR/LFD but are still too damn arrogant to accept that there should be content for people who are not them.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2013-12-19 at 09:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  4. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Tanks did not want to tank random heroics, nor do they want to tank LFR.
    It is NOT an LFR problem, but a community issue.
    Whatever the format of the content, tanks and healers often stayed with people they knew, so reducing the numbers of those roles available and increasing the queue times for DPS.
    LFR is aimed at unorganised, random groups with no requirements for prior knowledge or experience.
    The experienced players always look down on it as being for the "bads", but with complete ignorance of what it is like going in without raid experience.
    Ok it might not contain that many, if any without raid experience on many runs but that is who it has to cater to.
    Because the dungeon journal was implemented for the raiders who read Icyveins right?

    The problem IS with LFR because of the fact that it is a queue based system for content meant for a group cooperating

  5. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Because the dungeon journal was implemented for the raiders who read Icyveins right?
    Icy Veins is the Cliffs Notes for the dungeon journal. I wish that journal was as useful as Icy Veins. If every player didn't have to dig through 20 different descriptions to pick out the two or three crucial ones that they actually had any control over then it might actually have been useful. As it is you can read the dungeon journal all day, but unless you have a photographic memory and/or several fights' experience under your belt it's not going to do jack for you.

    If a raid is a logic puzzle then the dungeon journal is the series of facts that is laid out for you while Icy Veins is the filled-in logic chart. Just because you choose to memorize that logic chart up front doesn't make the person who opts to fill it in themselves a dumbass.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    So again, each mode just means more inflation and a longer gear grind. Now I normally wouldn't mind gear being harder to get, but running the same instance on 4 difficulties is not enjoyable.
    Then ... don't run it on 4 difficulties?

    What is your problem that you can't play the game in a way you enjoy it, and yet you continue to play?

    And you think that what needs to change is the game?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Icy Veins is the Cliffs Notes for the dungeon journal. I wish that journal was as useful as Icy Veins. If every player didn't have to dig through 20 different descriptions to pick out the two or three crucial ones that they actually had any control over then it might actually have been useful. As it is you can read the dungeon journal all day, but unless you have a photographic memory and/or several fights' experience under your belt it's not going to do jack for you.

    If a raid is a logic puzzle then the dungeon journal is the series of facts that is laid out for you while Icy Veins is the filled-in logic chart. Just because you choose to memorize that logic chart up front doesn't make the person who opts to fill it in themselves a dumbass.
    The Dungeon Journal is of relatively limited use. There is no significant percentage of the playing population that is going to "learn" an encounter by reading the Dungeon Journal beforehand, especially three or a dozen bosses at a time.

    It is good as something to browse during a wipe, while waiting for the group to get out of combat, though.

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by satimy View Post
    1. Offer tanks and healers some incentive to que, no the satchel is horrible. One idea is for every wing of lfr you tank or heal you can be placed in the front of the line as a dps toon.

    You tank Vale of Eternal on your warrior
    you then que for Vale of Eternal on your druid dps and skip the line

    or give an increased loot drop for healers and tanks nothing major

    or double valor for tanks/healers


    As for accountability, the vote kick rule basically ensures every group will have trolls or afkers. People should be able to vote kick whenever they want. The dps in the SOO tier has been 20k-40k lower than it was last patch. If someone wants to roll in and do 20k dps than the group should be able to kick them.
    The first option means if you don't have a Tank/Healer you have to sit forever in queue. This is already true, so don't make it double. DPS shouldn't be forced to alt a Tank/Healer just to get into queue quicker on their mains. I play as a Hunter so I can't Tank or Heal with the character. A more viable option is to let all Pure DPS classes become Hybrids that way it is more likely that we can offspec Tank/Heal and ALL queue's would be shorter.

    Second option is really bad, if they gear quicker that means they need less LFR overall and that means DPS has to queue more and more while the Tanks and Healers queues less and less and that would increase the DPS queue timer a lot.

    Third option is the same as second, it causes DPS queue timer to increase because less Tanks and Healers would need to queue because they finish quicker.

    As for your tips for accountability. It doesn't work. LFR is for casuals that might not be good so they can see the encounters. So low DPS should never be the reason you want to kick someone. The DPS will increase with each wipe and increase with each gear upgrade they get. However we need to get someway to report AFK so they get a debuff or longer queues if they have gotten kicked because of it. The debuff for tanks/healers need to be longer also. Otherwise the tanks and healer will drop LFR too much. They need to increase the reward for staying a full LFR and being active in it, so they need to add some sort of feature that can track your activity.

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Icy Veins is the Cliffs Notes for the dungeon journal. I wish that journal was as useful as Icy Veins. If every player didn't have to dig through 20 different descriptions to pick out the two or three crucial ones that they actually had any control over then it might actually have been useful. As it is you can read the dungeon journal all day, but unless you have a photographic memory and/or several fights' experience under your belt it's not going to do jack for you.

    If a raid is a logic puzzle then the dungeon journal is the series of facts that is laid out for you while Icy Veins is the filled-in logic chart. Just because you choose to memorize that logic chart up front doesn't make the person who opts to fill it in themselves a dumbass.
    You know what? You're right. If only they added something to show what needs to be payed attention to by each role or what is a major mechanic compared to just being the spell a boss casts. Oh wait... those little swords, plus signs or shields might mean somthing. Same with the skulls, red explosions, blue circles, exclamation points. Does a tank really need to read the mechanic that is marked with a healing sign? Nope. On Icyveins a tank would end up reading the healing mechanics if they don't skip over them because thats how the guide is written

    Icyveins is most certainly more indepth than the dungeon joournal. The dungeon journal explains core mechanics, lists spells and tells each role what to look out for.

    The point isnt that the dungeon journal = perfection. The point is that you should go into a Siegecrafter fight knowing that the bombs move towards you and not to touch them. You should go into a Nazgarim fight knowing to not attack in defensive stance. You should go into a Immerseus fight knowing what you do with the blobs. These are the problems with the LFR playerbase. If you aren't ready to peel from the boss immediately or forget to not refresh DoTs on Nazgarim during defensive thats one thing. If you are there tunneling him because you have no idea what you're doing then you are a problem. Unfortunately LFR had many problem players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Then ... don't run it on 4 difficulties?

    What is your problem that you can't play the game in a way you enjoy it, and yet you continue to play?

    And you think that what needs to change is the game?

    - - - Updated - - -


    The Dungeon Journal is of relatively limited use. There is no significant percentage of the playing population that is going to "learn" an encounter by reading the Dungeon Journal beforehand, especially three or a dozen bosses at a time.

    It is good as something to browse during a wipe, while waiting for the group to get out of combat, though.
    The 4 difficulties are a linear gearing path, and for much of this expansion there havent been workarounds. Timeless gear is such crap its laughed at. Northern Barrens didn't help one bit, and by the time it came out most groups were at least pushing heroics. in 5.1 the items from the dailies would only help you get past MSV runs, and even then they were limited. in 5.2 there was NOTHING but LFR to gear up. More difficulties has made getting into groups MORE exclusive rather than less, you want to get into a raid group? better been grinding the same raid on a lower difficulty for some time or you need to be in a group from the last patch and progress right away.

    The fact that the playerbase isnt using the dungeon journal isn't the journals fault. Blizzard put in relevent mechanics, playerbase ignores it, and playerbase continues to do terrible even on the easiest difficulty until any lingering mechanics are removed. You don't need to know every boss before you zone in, but before you fight boss 1 read the fight, before you fight boss 2 read the fight, before 3 read the fight and before 4 read the fight.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The fact that the playerbase isnt using the dungeon journal isn't the journals fault. Blizzard put in relevent mechanics, playerbase ignores it, and playerbase continues to do terrible even on the easiest difficulty until any lingering mechanics are removed. You don't need to know every boss before you zone in, but before you fight boss 1 read the fight, before you fight boss 2 read the fight, before 3 read the fight and before 4 read the fight.
    So you're advising players to AFK on the trash between bosses in order to read the journal?

  10. #350
    Nothing to fix when nothing is broken.

  11. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Those reaching the content for the first time, without prior experience have an awful job breaking into any higher format that reeks of elitism.
    Inflated gear requirements, the need for gear superior to that found in the content, and gear they can't get without that content, achievements they can't get without that content, etc.

    The lack of entry requirements for LFR is bypassing the worst part of the raiding community in other formats, the ego factor.

    LFR is the only end-game some people will ever be able to see.
    And so have no opportunity, nor need to push themselves to some higher standard that achieves exactly nothing.

    A huge number of problems the players blame on the game are in fact driven by their fellow players, if not in part by those doing the complaining.
    The community forced the need for LFR/LFD but are still too damn arrogant to accept that there should be content for people who are not them.
    Oh god the irony haha. LFR was introduced because whiny bads were upset there was content not for them. They had content for them and the raiders had content, but these players insisted on more. 4.1 players could have spent their time enjoying the dungeons as raiders did raids, but oh no, there better not be content for somebody else!

    There is nothing elitist about anything you described. LFR has inflated gear requirements even more, not less. Why do you think the cloak is mandatory for many groups? BECAUSE IT IS OBTAINABLE IN THE EASIEST MODE BY THE WORST PLAYERS. Raiders seek to cooperate, not step on others and hope enough dps are paying attention that they can afk. Thats why raiders don't like new players, because new players are less likely to be able to carry their own weight. Why new players cant group with other new players idk, mostly because a group of 10 LFR players isn't willing to do progression raiding, they want to join a 11/14 guild run.

  12. #352
    I am playing a healer and I remember getting insta pops at the beginning of MoP. It seems these days everyone rolled a healer, since I can wait up to an hour for SoO lfr before giving up.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    So you're advising players to AFK on the trash between bosses in order to read the journal?
    Read before you queue up the first boss. Read during downtime the next ones. Trash pulls arent just chain pulling you know. Not like reading 3/4 before you queue is hard, but there is plenty of time to read during trash. I mean, its not incredibly difficult to pull it up and keep fighting trash even as a tank or healer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by runedhill View Post
    Nothing to fix when nothing is broken.
    Queue times up, completion rates down. Yes LFR is really doing great! remember because everybody uses it that means everybody loves it!

  14. #354
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    The lack of entry requirements for LFR is bypassing the worst part of the raiding community in other formats, the ego factor.
    Quoted for truth. To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.

    LFR is designated to be the most easy difficulty to offer an introduction how the late game content looks like,what's obtainable from it and what's the most important part - how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal.

    And that's exactly the point where a lot of people stumble. Because, let's be honest,practically every single player joining the LFR queue does it for his own personal goals. Therefore no matter what the goal is on a failure they feel that the other 24 random people are holding him down or bashing him for trying to achieve that. And what you get in the end isn't a team of 25 working together to achieve victory but 25 individuals chasing each their own personal goal/benefit.

    Furthermore most complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. It's pretty natural to feel dragged down if you perform together with people that make mistakes on things that you consider common sense. However it isn't. As surprising it may be to hear it's not common sense to evade squiggly purple lines on the floor when Malkorok does his bash. It's common knowledge. And the difference between those is that you actually have to KNOW what's happening to act accordingly.

    Which is often forgotten by those who have plenty of experience behind their belt. And here's the part why I think complainers are bad. Because they by no way try to improve the performance of the team. They do not explain the tactics (or where,who and why did wrong) in a sensible way but instead insult other people. They think that the simple fact of them attending the boss fight is all that's required from them. And what I want to say by that is....

    If you are not ready to raid in LFR with a group that most likely doesn't know what they are doing and can't be arsed to say more than "STFU Noob Tank/DPS/Healer" and simply don't have the balls to take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.

    Because honestly if you complain LFR being so much worse than the alternatives then why you just don't use those? That's what they are made for.

  15. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    The point isnt that the dungeon journal = perfection. The point is that you should go into a Siegecrafter fight knowing that the bombs move towards you and not to touch them.
    If the person on the conveyor belt is doing their job then no bombs should get through. All you should really have to know is not to run the red beam through the raid, to get out of those sawblades he flings at random people, and to not stand between the sawblades and magnet when the time to let a magnet through comes. Unfortunately it never goes down that way. The raid doesn't stack, so sawblades go everywhere. Someone runs the red beam all through the raid, making sure to weave back and forth a couple of times for max coverage. Most players remain parked when the drills come up out of the ground, and some even follow them around just to make sure they can soak up extra damage. The bombs keep coming and no one bothers to acknowledge them. But do you know what? I find it absolutely hilarious, and it provides me with far more of a healing challenge than any organized flex run. So what if I'm usually doing 40-60% of the healing? So what if all these other so-called "dumbasses" have a shot at the same loot that I will probably vendor anyway? It's all in good fun, just like a game should be. When I want to participate in a serious raid run I do so with my guild. When I want to queue for the lolz and help others faceroll their way to "victory" I do that too. There's a little something for everybody, and that's the way it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You should go into a Nazgarim fight knowing to not attack in defensive stance.
    I know. The tank shouts it over raid chat until his fingers bleed but there's always someone who just can't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    You should go into a Immerseus fight knowing what you do with the blobs.
    Well, sometimes you queued with the intent to read up before hand but the queue pops unexpectedly early and you barely manage to zone in seconds before the tank pulls. At that point you just go with the flow. Killing the black slimes and staying out of the goo on the ground is relatively intuitive. Healing the blue slimes is not. Ideally the game would have some kind of indicator to clue players into the fact that healing the blue slimes is good, but the game is far from ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    These are the problems with the LFR playerbase.
    And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    If you aren't ready to peel from the boss immediately or forget to not refresh DoTs on Nazgarim during defensive thats one thing. If you are there tunneling him because you have no idea what you're doing then you are a problem. Unfortunately LFR had many problem players.
    Not really. Blizzard is the problem because they don't sufficiently penalize individual players in an obvious manner for tunnelling Nazgrim. Instead everyone else pays for that player's failure in a manner that is not even intuitively connected to said failure. A better design for LFR would cause the player to get a stacking debuff that lowers their damage and ultimately stuns the player for thirty seconds every time the player hits him. Instead one guy beats on him and everyone else has to deal with the axes later. That's not not a "dumbass player" problem. That's a "dumbass designer" problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by BaltazarDZ View Post
    Quoted for truth. To be honest my view on people who complain about LFR being too tedious due to other player low gear/experience/skill etc.. are actually quite low themselves. Here's my reasoning behind that opinion.

    LFR is designated to be the most easy difficulty to offer an introduction how the late game content looks like,what's obtainable from it and what's the most important part - how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal.

    And that's exactly the point where a lot of people stumble. Because, let's be honest,practically every single player joining the LFR queue does it for his own personal goals. Therefore no matter what the goal is on a failure they feel that the other 24 random people are holding him down or bashing him for trying to achieve that. And what you get in the end isn't a team of 25 working together to achieve victory but 25 individuals chasing each their own personal goal/benefit.

    Furthermore most complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. It's pretty natural to feel dragged down if you perform together with people that make mistakes on things that you consider common sense. However it isn't. As surprising it may be to hear it's not common sense to evade squiggly purple lines on the floor when Malkorok does his bash. It's common knowledge. And the difference between those is that you actually have to KNOW what's happening to act accordingly.

    Which is often forgotten by those who have plenty of experience behind their belt. And here's the part why I think complainers are bad. Because they by no way try to improve the performance of the team. They do not explain the tactics (or where,who and why did wrong) in a sensible way but instead insult other people. They think that the simple fact of them attending the boss fight is all that's required from them. And what I want to say by that is....

    If you are not ready to raid in LFR with a group that most likely doesn't know what they are doing and can't be arsed to say more than "STFU Noob Tank/DPS/Healer" and simply don't have the balls to take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.

    Because honestly if you complain LFR being so much worse than the alternatives then why you just don't use those? That's what they are made for.
    how it's like to try and work in a team with large group of people to achieve the same goal I remember a blue saying something like "Flex still feels like raiding" which would imply LFR doesn't even in Blizzards view. And it most definitely doesn't feel like raiding.

    complainers usually have gear or experience that exceeds the minimum necessary to join LFR usually even by a huge margin. Therefore their individual performance is a lot higher that the average bunch. its one thing when somebody brags about pulling 95k dps when they were in 496 gear. its another to say that 60k dps is not even close to acceptable for 496 (Siege minimum)

    they by no way try to improve the performance of the team because people will listen? Most have instance chat ignored or if you whisper them respond angrily. They don't want to get better, because those who do want to get better have already bothered to learn to play.

    take up leadership of the group and share your experience then keep silent yourself and let other people do their best.
    and get called a controlling elitist and kicked or just flat out ignored? They're not going to try, you can't make them try, the group is accepting that they won't try because many other members are not trying. If there was some way to actually let experience players LEAD a LFR group that would be one thing, but hiding chat or simply ignoring people is a problem. Unless they let those with AoTC or something queue as a leader and have control over pulls, groups and the authority to kick, the bads will protect the bads from the mean elitists who expect them to carry their weight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    If the person on the conveyor belt is doing their job then no bombs should get through. All you should really have to know is not to run the red beam through the raid, to get out of those sawblades he flings at random people, and to not stand between the sawblades and magnet when the time to let a magnet through comes. Unfortunately it never goes down that way. The raid doesn't stack, so sawblades go everywhere. Someone runs the red beam all through the raid, making sure to weave back and forth a couple of times for max coverage. Most players remain parked when the drills come up out of the ground, and some even follow them around just to make sure they can soak up extra damage. The bombs keep coming and no one bothers to acknowledge them. But do you know what? I find it absolutely hilarious, and it provides me with far more of a healing challenge than any organized flex run. So what if I'm usually doing 40-60% of the healing? So what if all these other so-called "dumbasses" have a shot at the same loot that I will probably vendor anyway? It's all in good fun, just like a game should be. When I want to participate in a serious raid run I do so with my guild. When I want to queue for the lolz and help others faceroll their way to "victory" I do that too. There's a little something for everybody, and that's the way it should be.


    I know. The tank shouts it over raid chat until his fingers bleed but there's always someone who just can't read.


    Well, sometimes you queued with the intent to read up before hand but the queue pops unexpectedly early and you barely manage to zone in seconds before the tank pulls. At that point you just go with the flow. Killing the black slimes and staying out of the goo on the ground is relatively intuitive. Healing the blue slimes is not. Ideally the game would have some kind of indicator to clue players into the fact that healing the blue slimes is good, but the game is far from ideal.


    And that's where we disagree. Expecting players to do "homework" before playing the game is just bad/lazy game design. That's not a player failure. That's a Blizzard failure.


    Not really. Blizzard is the problem because they don't sufficiently penalize individual players in an obvious manner for tunnelling Nazgrim. Instead everyone else pays for that player's failure in a manner that is not even intuitively connected to said failure. A better design for LFR would cause the player to get a stacking debuff that lowers their damage and ultimately stuns the player for thirty seconds every time the player hits him. Instead one guy beats on him and everyone else has to deal with the axes later. That's not not a "dumbass player" problem. That's a "dumbass designer" problem.
    You don't have to do homework. You could learn as you go. but find a group WILLING to learn with you. LFR is not a learning area because the Determination buff means that you will end up just tunneling through everything eventually.

    Why give the player a debuff? Ive been in groups where we decided to put some high, like 220k+ dps on him the entire time. It is the player base who needs to decide what to do, not make Blizzard force a 1-way only raid encounter. I know on Malkorok I rarely stack with the group unless Blood Fury is up, because I know where the safe zones are on my own. Don't make it so that there is only 1 space to stand, let players move how they wish, but at the same time need to stack sometimes.

    You do have a way to tell players healing the blue slimes is good. its called the dungeon journal. Dont queue until you read the fights.

  17. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Oh god the irony haha. LFR was introduced because whiny bads were upset there was content not for them. They had content for them and the raiders had content, but these players insisted on more. 4.1 players could have spent their time enjoying the dungeons as raiders did raids, but oh no, there better not be content for somebody else!
    Not really because those dungeons were even harder than LFR despite dropping loot that was not even as good as the crap you bought through rep farming. The only players enjoying those dungeons were raiders, and that's because they could outgear them through their raid drops. The progression path was rep farm -> raid -> dungeons. Those dungeons were only good for achievements because if you wanted actual gear you were going to have to raid for it. This design was brought about because raiders were crying that casual players were getting epic gear and hoarding gold by facerolling heroics while raiders were going broke paying for repairs, buying gems, and buying enchantments. No one was crying for LFR. They were simply leaving the game because it just wasn't fun anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    I am playing a healer and I remember getting insta pops at the beginning of MoP. It seems these days everyone rolled a healer, since I can wait up to an hour for SoO lfr before giving up.
    This morning I participated in four LFR raids in three hours as DPS starting at 5 am. I zoned into Dark Shamans the first time and one-shotted both bosses. Next raid we one-shotted everything from Jin'Rokh on. Next raid I did Tortos through Ji-Kun, all one-shots. Finally I did Durumu and logged out because I had to get ready for work. Some people were confused, some people pulled extra stuff, and players were reluctant to volunteer for nest duty, but other than that, everything went fairly smoothly. All in all the three hours didn't feel wasted. These reports about multi-hour waits for SoO LFR seem like exaggerations to me.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-12-19 at 10:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  18. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Blizzard will have their own version of Oqueue in WoD, so that argument goes out the window more than likely.(what they added is just a tiny bandaid, not indicative of what they are going to make).

    They've also strongly hinted its rewards will be nerfed. Recently GC tweeted that LFR should be for seeing content and "some gear". They don't like that everyone is forced into LFR for end game progression, even though most probably don't care for the style of play raiding is.
    That's assuming if Blizzard can pull it off and making a feature that does what oQueue does. Seeing how Blizzard isn't really great at bringing things into the game that addons have allowed in the past, highly doubt the Group System will be as good as oQueue. Hopefully it will be good enough though. Also I think LFR should be there for people to gear up their alts to do flex/pugs and not for end game raiding. I think the problem is now is people want to do normal pugs, but it's quite impossible. I want it to be like it was back in WotLK or TBC, where you could go into the newest raid on normal and knock out the first bosses, like ICC, the first 4 bosses. Full ToC, few bosses in Ulduar, even whole naxx was pug-able. And lots of bosses in TBC were also. But now you don't see those normal pug runs, they used to be fun, getting decent items for alts or if you missed out on your guild raid. Now all the bosses have too many tactics so majority of players can't even attempt them cause they're too complicated.

    Anyways OT. I think they're fixing LFR at least a little bit. I saw at the panel at Blizzcon it said "LFR (10 - 25 Player)" which I'm assuming will be 10-25 depending on how many people are queueing perhaps? Maybe the system will try and make the most fitting group for LFR when you queue, weather it will be 10, 25 or somewhere in between. I at least hope so.

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Queue times up, completion rates down. Yes LFR is really doing great! remember because everybody uses it that means everybody loves it!
    I don't know if you've been to a theme park before, but queue times go up when there are more people in line. More people queueing for LFR actually implies that it's doing pretty well. Yes, the tank/healer/dps ratios are still screwed up, but that problem is only magnified when more people queue. Longer queue times don't necessarily imply that LFR is doing worse. Like I just said in another post, I was able to farm about 400 valor from LFR as DPS in less than three hours today.
    Quote Originally Posted by CandyCotton Marshmallows View Post
    People need to get over the gear color (and themselves). It doesn't matter, and it shouldn't matter what other players have either. Worry about your damn self. Live your life by that. If you want to concern yourself with someone else, then worry about HELPING them, not putting them down or making sure you stand out as better than them.
    Maybe the game would be better with more low DPS nice guys and fewer high DPS jerks? -- Ghostcrawler, Twitter, 6/29/13

  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Yea the guy without gems and enchants half afk in the corner is a heroic raider...
    No, raiders carry the groups. Raiders are those healers and dps doing twice what the next highest one is doing. Raiders are the ones who actually handle mechanics. Expecting you to contribute to the group and not slack off is not a douchebag move, but slacking off is.

    There is plenty of evidence, on these very forums, that contradicts your assertion. Every week I read dozens of posts, from players who claim that they are "real raiders", commenting on how worthless and horrible LFR is, while at the same time bragging about how they queue for LFR and then go AFK.

    Here's a random example from this thread about the legendary cloak :
    Quote Originally Posted by Megamisama View Post
    I afk'd in LFRs before my normal/heroic raids to get the quest items. It is a welfare item PER DEFINITION and there's nothing wrong calling it that.
    I like the cape as a reward, I like the idea of the cape being from a long, long quest line. In fact, I love it! And I hope Blizzard has more of those ideas. But I still consider it a welfare legendary.

    These posts by Vargas and MoanaLisa are right on the money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargas View Post
    I only ever see normal/heroic raiders causing problems, not LFR users. The former always seems to be the guys who pull when the group isn't all present, who ignore mechanics and strats because "lol its LFR" and then blame everyone but themselves when the group wipes.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for people AFKing through it, those people--many of whom are quick to call others lazy without a shred of self-awareness--are more the problem than the design ever will be.

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