[Heroic 25M] Nazgrim comp question

[dagachi]

We're working on HC Nazgrim, best attempt is 46% with 2:30 on berserk. Our raid leader asked me to be the third tank and primarily tank the adds. Our composition for this fight is

3 tanks (pally [me, its my os], warrior, monk)
18 dps
5 healers

Would it be better to drop to 2 tanks?

[Coolfox]

Most 10 mans run this fight with 3 tanks, 1 of which sitting up the back purely to pick up the adds.

I can't see why a 25 man wouldn't run that sort of comp tbh. Also, you going dps isn't going to make up for the ~10% your behind

[dagachi]

Oh boy...well then in that case for the tanks picking up all the adds, what do you do about the ironblade? Melee are pretty much pigeon holed into dpsing the assassin/sniper when they're up. How do you go about getting seperation between the ironblades and the warshaman/arcweavers?

[Jordaen]

Honestly it'd be better to drop to 4 healers. The healing requirements are not that high. I'm mainly a 10 man heroic raider, and we 2 tank it. I don't see why you'd need 3 at all, especially in a 25 man with plenty of CCs for the sniper, interrupts for shaman, stuns for ironblade et al.

[Sillysauce]

3 tanks is what my guild (25) does. Pally / War (me) / Monk. We have the pally holding Ironblades while the tank not currently tanking Nazgrim grabs the Warshaman (still boss swapping like normal)

[Libretto]

Our alt 10-man 2-tanks it (heroic) fine every week.

You should be able to 3-tank 25 without issue, if your dps is low then have the dps improve their play. 2-tanking isn't going to get you through berserk with the time you're making right now. Also, make sure nobody other than a tank is anywhere near the shaman / healing tide totem so the boss can't decide to be a dick and leap to that person, getting healed by the totem upon landing. Finally, make sure purges of earth shield on the boss are quick if it goes up. The shaman and arcweaver should be murdered by ranged dps very quickly.

[dagachi]

With the 3 tank method, there isn't any issue with stacks between the 2 tanks on Nazgrim correct? The warrior and monk tank (they're on Nazgrim) said they were having problems with the stacks, and it showed. At one point they'd be at 4 stacks.

[trystero]

With the 3 tank method, there isn't any issue with stacks between the 2 tanks on Nazgrim correct? The warrior and monk tank (they're on Nazgrim) said they were having problems with the stacks, and it showed. At one point they'd be at 4 stacks.

2 tanks shouldn't have a problem managing stacks. We run a third tank, true, but his only job is to manage ironblades, and I tank the boss alongside a warrior. Tanks just need to watch their timers (the sundering stacks come fast) and make sure they never get to four stacks. It's not possible to get every single add when running a 2 tank rotation; you have to let some slide. Like suppose Nazgrim is about to apply his 3rd stack of sundering and a warshaman spawns right beforehand. Well you can't go pickup that warshaman and then taunt Nazgrim as that gambit has disaster written all over it. You taunt Nazgrim and your co-tank goes to grab the warshaman as fast as he can while you create separation, but there will be some lag wherein your DPS have to use their brains and not get crit meleed (stunlock, defensives, etc, dying on this fight is inexcusable 9/10 times). Arcweavers are another story; I just throw a shield at them/taunt whatever. Most of the time it works out well, but every so often you do get that warshaman zoning in during a very awkward taunt swap.

[Pennoyer]

With the 3 tank method, there isn't any issue with stacks between the 2 tanks on Nazgrim correct? The warrior and monk tank (they're on Nazgrim) said they were having problems with the stacks, and it showed. At one point they'd be at 4 stacks.

We use 3 tanks and have all 3 tanks rotate among each other to minimize stacks/Nazgrim's rage gain. The tanks not currently tanking him go tank and control adds better for DPS to cleave down. DPS will go up if you can get the adds as close together as possible, such as having people with Assassin's Mark run to where the Shamans or Arcweavers are for more cleave DPS.

[v3ngful]

We use 3 tanks, 2 are on the boss just rotating and 1 is on the adds picking them all up.

Ignore ironblades/Snipers unless in defensive stance.

Prio Order: Arcweaver -> Shamans -> Assassins.

Assign someone to slow the adds.

Kill boss.

[Migraine]

Dropping to two tanks will increase your dps at the expense of slightly higher rage gain on Nazgrim (only if you are currently sharing the sundering blows between the three tanks). You seem an awful long way off if you have 46% with 2:30 on the berserk timer, that would mean that you wiped during the last zerker stance with a defensive stance going to take a minute of that remaining time.

What's limiting your dps so much are you getting excessive amounts of banners that need dpsing or possible even ravagers. What do you perceive to be the issues outside of the number of tanks?

[Mojibake]

We use 3 tanks, 2 are on the boss just rotating and 1 is on the adds picking them all up.

Ignore ironblades/Snipers unless in defensive stance.

Prio Order: Arcweaver -> Shamans -> Assassins.

Assign someone to slow the adds.

Kill boss.

Basically what we do. Also the two tanks on the boss never have problems with getting too many stacks in heroic. We taunt on exactly three stacks every time while our monk holds the warshaman in the back.

[dagachi]

Dropping to two tanks will increase your dps at the expense of slightly higher rage gain on Nazgrim (only if you are currently sharing the sundering blows between the three tanks). You seem an awful long way off if you have 46% with 2:30 on the berserk timer, that would mean that you wiped during the last zerker stance with a defensive stance going to take a minute of that remaining time.

What's limiting your dps so much are you getting excessive amounts of banners that need dpsing or possible even ravagers. What do you perceive to be the issues outside of the number of tanks?

The problem is with the adds. What is happening is I'm tanking all the adds at the back, while the other 2 tanks are just on Nazgrim swapping at 3 stacks. When the Ironblades are up the adds die really slow, because melee doesn't wanna go anywhere near the pile of adds since there is a whirling Ironblade in the pack.

[Spotnick]

Never seen this done with 3 tanks, seen it with all adds on melee with boss for cleave with disarms and stuns going on so melee don't get cleaved, and boss tanked where adds spawn until the defensive stance where he's moved away so people don't cleave it by mistake.

DKs are gripping adds to boss. We 4 heal it on farm, but 5 should be fine, if people don't stand in crap too often you should have no war song at all in this fight.

Logs would probably help.

[Pennoyer]

The problem is with the adds. What is happening is I'm tanking all the adds at the back, while the other 2 tanks are just on Nazgrim swapping at 3 stacks. When the Ironblades are up the adds die really slow, because melee doesn't wanna go anywhere near the pile of adds since there is a whirling Ironblade in the pack.

Yeah, 3 tanks is an increase in DPS because you can better control the adds for a lot more cleave or AOE DPS. Also, he won't even be able to heroic shockwave on CD since he won't get enough rage until after his CD is up, so you're having to dodge less leaps and also not having to DPS any banners. I'm not sure what his rage gains are like when you only use 2 tanks on the boss, but if you keep getting banners because of that then that's just slowing your raid DPS down by causing another target switch. Banner also keeps feeding him rage, so you keep getting more banners you have to kill.. in that situation you'll actually probably want to proc a war song to reset his rage and prevent a banner placement.

We 2 shot this boss using 3 tanks. Just keep the Ironblade stunned and away from the others and people can multidot it down, or you can bring it into the main pack when it's low to finish off. Healers should be DPSing and controlling adds when possible. If he's low and enrage is coming up, you might have to DPS through a defensive and get some ravagers, but you should still be able to kill it.

[anon5123]

Oh boy...well then in that case for the tanks picking up all the adds, what do you do about the ironblade? Melee are pretty much pigeon holed into dpsing the assassin/sniper when they're up. How do you go about getting seperation between the ironblades and the warshaman/arcweavers?

If it's worth anything, Monks can glyph Breath of Fire, and using that on the Ironblade will completely interrupt their bladestorm.