Really tired of hearing "Which mage or hunter wants to sit"

[Hayro1]

Your raid leader is an idiot.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/

Mages. Hunters. Near the top. If anything, your raid leader should be going: Which DK wants to reroll or never see the inside of anything other than LFR until WOD?

I didn't realize being lower than the middle and almost to the bottom for both specs of Hunters was considered "near the top" LOL.

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The issue is that only US views themselves in terms of "US-Rank", while EU views it in terms of "world rank"

Boooo, you went with your healer?):

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Rank 10 brawler at ilvl 440 is harder then killing garrosh hc Proving grounds 44 waves at ilvl 440 is also harder, So I consider myself a world class hunter

You have my respect good sir. Well put.
Raiding currently requires minimum effort and brain power. It is the commitment that holds most people back.

I have seen so many awesome players step out of raiding purely because of the commitment it takes to be in a high end guild (even if as low as top 300). Such shame.

[Dracodraco]

Like I said, boomkin is AMAZING 3 minute burst DPS, especially with Incarnation and when you lust on pull. Fights last longer than 30 seconds though, and you generally want to kill things that come up in a fight reasonably fast where a boomkin just isn't going to cut it. For example, I can top DPS on Skeer, but then I significantly fall compared to my raid on the next couple paragons. When we get to Garrosh and try to push him into phase 3, I don't think that 2+ million burst DPS I did in Phase 1 as a 470 resto druid-geared moonkin is going to help all that much. Even when CDs are back up the burst isn't nearly that good without the reliable trinket/meta procs that a pull provides for a dot snapshotting class.. which is kind of the problem that blizzard is trying to get rid of next xpac where some classes are doing as much DPS on the pull as they do over the course of the next several minutes.

Yet over 4-5 minute fights, boomkins and hunters are doing equal DPS. The point where the burst comes doesn't really matter when the bottom line is the same, or better.
As for Paragons, I chose that fight specificly because of how fucking insane it is for boomkins. You want burst on skeer (pull), you have no dps check to meet on Rikkal/locust+korven to 50%, then you want burst on korven sub 50% again. Lines up perfectly. Then you want nothing on Hisek, no dps check to meet, and burst again on xaril. Basicly, it's a perfect fight for the damage pattern of a boomkin. If I had the choise between someone doing 500K on boss 1, 3, and 5, and 300K on 2, 4 and 6 OR someone doing 400K on all 6 - I'd obviously pick number one.
Also, if you're blowing your CD's as a boomkin in P1 garrosh, that's probably unnessecary . We usually have our raiders save as many 3 minutes as possible for the jade temple.

Constantly drawing fungal growth on the ground was good for our raid, but it came at the cost of me only having like 50% nature's grace uptime and thus having like 230K DPS. If a hunter was there to drop his traps and root, and use his significantly superior AoE, that would have been both a raid DPS and mine DPS increase (notwithstanding the fact that belt duty hunters lessen the need to shuffle melee back and forth between the belt and thus increase DPS in that way as well). We actually required more CCs like Vortex because we brought two moonkins to this fight and couldn't just lolAoE the mines down as fast as a comp without us. This is an issue relatively unique to moonkins, though, so it doesn't address the overall point of the thread but I think it's useful in highlighting how you have to look beyond the haves and have nots in the healing CD realm.

Our boomkin does just fine on siegecrafter. This week, he did 350K - obviously, it's hard to compare to a hunter because if you're doing it correct, the hunter would never be on bombs either way, no matter how good they are on the mines - they are even better on the weapons.
That said, using fungal growth or traps are both very dumb choises to keep stuff slowed on siegecrafter - do you mean to tell me that you've got zero warriors, DK's, or shamans to throw in their AOE slows?
In any case, that aside, you shouldn't think of Vortex as a competitor to what a hunter would do - it's an addition. You should never, ever, ever, EVER be lacking slows in a 25 man raid. You simply have far too many viable AOE slows that trumphs a hunter trap. It then becomes "what extra CC does a hunter bring over other classes?" The answer is -
Binding shot, a stun, which goes on DR.
Compare it to say, boomkins or shadow priests who both brings healing CD's too:
AOE-root that won't break on dmg (priest).
Ursols.
Typhoon.
None of which are on the DR.
Also, you are severely wrong if you think that hunters do far more DMG to the mines than boomkins can. Sure, there's a minor difference - but the difference between having, say, a hunter and an ele shaman is about five times as big as the difference between a boomkin and a hunter.

In fact, raid CDs have become so prevalent that I don't think losing an 8 minute CD tranq for more unique skillset ends up being all that big of a deal, especially because 3 of the final 6 fights don't require any off-healing CDs at all and Thok is the only one where you'd actually want to stack as much healing as possible. In a 25 man, I'm not sure how much I'm going to believe that an extra non-resto tranq makes or breaks Whirling Corruption. Then again, I've only watched streams of Garrosh progression (though I've not seen anything that would suggest otherwise).

That is completly irrellevant. The entire discussion here is based on people being sat because they do not either provide superior dps, or a raid cooldown to justify a raid spot. If your argument of "I don't think losing a raid cd cos we already have so many matters" were correct, then the entire discussion would be moot. You have to assume that the reason people are being sat are, in fact, because the raid leader has a decision to make:
Out of two people, both whom have equal skill and gear (so output is pretty identical), you get to pick either the guy with a raid CD that could come in handy and save the raid or make a phase easier, or the guy without one.
Which do you pick?

Everything I've read for Paragons recommends against multidotting for Paragons because it's effectively a DPS loss (on the paragon you're trying to kill). Maybe they're wrong, I'm really not sure because I've only just begun this fight and I'm actually a healer having to DPS more due to these last few fights requiring few healers, partly because too many f-ing classes already bring raid CDs such that your raid is loaded with them and actual healers are redundant.

The point was that you say boomkins are extremely bad at movement compared to other classes. While that is true for a single target fight, any fight where you can spend the time you are moving on dotting up secondary targets, is only going to see you a very minor singletarget dps decrease (akin to what you'd expect a fire mage or warlock to suffer).

Boooo, you went with your healer?):

Sadly <.<. We actually found a new disc that's comming next week, back to hunter for me.

[blackblade]

How often is dps the issue though?

[Dracodraco]

How often is dps the issue though?

As I pointed out earlier, it depends on the guild. It's easy enough to say "but this guy is doing 400K in this gear while you're only doing 350K - improve your play!", but that just isn't going to happen. If switching the person for someone with a CD that allows for more overall DPS, is what's going to get you through the encounter, it'd be retarded not to of the raid leader. Gonna say it as simple as I can -

You work with what you have. Not what you wish you had.

Even people in my own guild seem to not be able to fathom the above at times. Would I wish that everyone were capable of playing their offspecs, or able to take on special duties like kiting on Garrosh or doing the belt on Siege without failing or complaining? Sure, of course I would. Is that realistic? Not really. The other members in my guild can complain as much as they want that X person can't do Y, but as long as we do not have an infinite amount of players to pick and choose from, I will keep tailoring our setups and strategies around what I have - if I can allow 5x people to sit and tunnel the boss, I'm going to give that task to the people I know can't handle the more advanced tasks. Doing anything else would just make our progress suffer.

CAN that person become viable if he played better and did more dps? Sure. Is it fair that switching him for someone who's at the exact same gear level and spec as he is, who does more dmg due to his class and brings a raid cd will increase your chance of success? Not at all.

[Argalin]

If anything, your raid leader should be going: Which DK wants to reroll or never see the inside of anything other than LFR until WOD?

Huh? Every raid week I'm wishing our 25m raid had another DK as we only have 1 mass death grip. That ability alone has a unique utility no other class brings. They also have AMZ for raid utility even if it's not as good as say Smoke Bomb. DKs are great to the point where having only 1 or none actually kinda stinks on several encounters.

[Dracodraco]

Huh? Every raid week I'm wishing our 25m raid had another DK as we only have 1 mass death grip. That ability alone has a unique utility no other class brings. They also have AMZ for raid utility even if it's not as good as say Smoke Bomb. DKs are great to the point where having only 1 or none actually kinda stinks on several encounters.

AMZ is stronger than smokebomb for a fair few encounters. Off the top of my head:
Protectors.
Sha of pride.
Dark Shamans.
Garrosh.
All encounters that has 1-hit-burst magic dmg (AKA duration of the CD doesn't matter, and AMZ works against the dmg) :P.

[AeneasBK]

As I pointed out earlier, it depends on the guild. It's easy enough to say "but this guy is doing 400K in this gear while you're only doing 350K - improve your play!", but that just isn't going to happen. If switching the person for someone with a CD that allows for more overall DPS, is what's going to get you through the encounter, it'd be retarded not to of the raid leader. Gonna say it as simple as I can -

You work with what you have. Not what you wish you had.

Even people in my own guild seem to not be able to fathom the above at times. Would I wish that everyone were capable of playing their offspecs, or able to take on special duties like kiting on Garrosh or doing the belt on Siege without failing or complaining? Sure, of course I would. Is that realistic? Not really. The other members in my guild can complain as much as they want that X person can't do Y, but as long as we do not have an infinite amount of players to pick and choose from, I will keep tailoring our setups and strategies around what I have - if I can allow 5x people to sit and tunnel the boss, I'm going to give that task to the people I know can't handle the more advanced tasks. Doing anything else would just make our progress suffer.

CAN that person become viable if he played better and did more dps? Sure. Is it fair that switching him for someone who's at the exact same gear level and spec as he is, who does more dmg due to his class and brings a raid cd will increase your chance of success? Not at all.

I almost want to quote this verbatim How long have you been a raid leader/ guild leader?

[Csnyder]

no. no we. you do sub par dps on most fights, not all mages or hunters are bad.
most of us do damn good as far as dps goes, in fact if you checked into it we are pretty much at the top.....how the fuck is that even close to sub par?
you are an idiot and so is your raid leader

[Myci]

blizzard=/= balance imo

[Dracodraco]

I almost want to quote this verbatim How long have you been a raid leader/ guild leader?

GM for this tier, raid leader since T11.

no. no we. you do sub par dps on most fights, not all mages or hunters are bad.
most of us do damn good as far as dps goes, in fact if you checked into it we are pretty much at the top.....how the fuck is that even close to sub par?
you are an idiot and so is your raid leader

Logs disagree with your statement. Feel free to provide evidence to back your proposition up. Raidbots was already linked for both 10 and 25 heroic earlier in the topic - for both difficulties, hunter specs were in the bottom half (further down in 25 than 10, but regardless, still lower than mid).

[Wycked]

We've brought multiple mages/hunters to almost all of our progression kills. If your GM's not retarded his sitting "mages and hunters" because the mages/hunters in your guild are not good. Your dps more than makes up for your lack of a raid CD.

[Dracodraco]

We've brought multiple mages/hunters to almost all of our progression kills. If your GM's not retarded his sitting "mages and hunters" because the mages/hunters in your guild are not good. Your dps more than makes up for your lack of a raid CD.

Read the topic, already been argued to death. When the dps spec for a hunter is in the lower half, that means that your DPS won't ever "make up" for not having a raid CD, because more than half the other classes will have a stronger output than you do *AND* a raid CD. If you have enough DPS as a hunter to leave your fellow raiders in the dust, and make your spot viable through that, it means you are a far better player than the rest of your raid, sorry to say.

[Darkfriend]

Your raid leader is an idiot.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overa...14/60/default/

Mages. Hunters. Near the top. If anything, your raid leader should be going: Which DK wants to reroll or never see the inside of anything other than LFR until WOD?

Ye, no. You're looking at the wrong data. Hunters are low/mid tier DPS. Same as frost Dks. Even the data you link shows hunters being low.

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We've brought multiple mages/hunters to almost all of our progression kills. If your GM's not retarded his sitting "mages and hunters" because the mages/hunters in your guild are not good. Your dps more than makes up for your lack of a raid CD.

Except their DPS is low to middle. So unless your other players are bad, hunters should be low to average on charts.

[Damien36]

Or you could be a top end guild and realize a raid CD dpser is more valuable than a hunter/mage that brings no CD of equal DPS

If you haven't downed H Garrosh by now, you are not a top end guild.

[taishar68]

Because we bring no raid cooldowns. I don't really care that we "bring buffs" cause in 25m it is completely irrelevant. We do subpar DPS on most fights compared to other classes, and we bring no raid cooldowns, no movement cooldowns, nothing. I've argued the point many times that hunters mark should be a raid CD similar to warrior crit banner, but a little stronger, and on that single target only. And cheetah aspect should be a movement roar cooldown that druids have. Just to make us a LITTLE wanted


frustration. WoD better change some shit

Maybe join a different guild? Maybe you won't progress as quickly, but you'll be playing.

[Krazzorx]

Personally, I think with mythic being 20m only Blizz will cut out a lot of the raid CDs from dps specs. ATM, the large amount of raid CDs is nearly necessary to allow 10s to have a fair amount of leeway in making their comp.

Maybe I'm wrong, but they've said they want to cut raid CDs down and now they have the chance. Personally I'm waiting till beta to start panicking.

We know they won't change anything right now to help hunters for MoP however.

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Ye, no. You're looking at the wrong data. Hunters are low/mid tier DPS. Same as frost Dks. Even the data you link shows hunters being low.

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Except their DPS is low to middle. So unless your other players are bad, hunters should be low to average on charts.

Well admittedly as you get to less and less progressed guilds you will see more people pull dps comparatively to other members that they shouldn't be pulling. Either higher or lower than where they should be hitting. Idk where you would put the "cutoff" point at but (made up number inc) at say less than 8/14 heroic you're going to get some people over or underperforming compared to the rest of their guild. So I'd say anything lower than that and its going to be the top 5 dpsers are going to be your best players regardless of class.

[Kapaya]

I'm tired of hearing that aswell, most of the time me or a Warrior wants to sit our RL goes "Yeah no", but if a Hunter or Mage says that, theeeeeeen it's ok

[lunchbox2042]

I'm sick of hearing players with little utility cry to Blizzard to give them more utility. They need to just start removing raid cooldowns from dps classes so people would shut up about being sat because they don't offer a raid cooldown for the group. Let tanks and healers bring the raid cooldowns and dps classes can bring something for survival and personal dps cooldowns.

[Vakna]

What game are you playing mate, hunters are doing really nice right now, and if any mage has a brain they can more than pull their weight as well.