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  1. #21
    Don't be mad, if you stuff your fury warrior in heroics you'll be useless anyway, with or without stuff won't make a difference.

  2. #22
    5 man dungeons really need the personal loot system. In fact the whole game needs to be designed around the premise that people are assholes.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    5 man dungeons really need the personal loot system. In fact the whole game needs to be designed around the premise that people are assholes.
    The whole game needs to be designed around the fact that multiple target audiences exist.

    Personal loot suits LFD/LFR groups and most PuGs.
    Other loot systems support guilds and groups of friends who prefer to play together.
    Last edited by mmoc2462c4a12d; 2013-12-28 at 01:28 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosturn View Post
    If you need on something you can need on, it's not ninjaing in any way.
    You are wrong and I can prove it. "If you need something, then press "Need" button" logic is terribly flawed. Why? All players are taking part in getting this loot (otherwise you should just go and get this loot solo), so they all have equal rights to get it. But developers are giving priority to some players. And first of all you should answer the question: why? Why some players can say "I need this item more, then others" and some can't? All players may say "I just need this item". All players may say "I need this item to sell it", "I need this item for transmog", "I need this item to DE it", etc. So, why can't all players have "Need" option, if they all can say "I need this"? The answer is very simple - "Need" button is intended to be used only if this item is upgrade for you and if you will equip it. In all other cases you should have equal rights to get item with all other players in party - i.e. use "Greed" button. Wanting to equip this item - is the only thing, that can make difference between you and other players and therefore give you some right to have priority to get item. Otherwise "Need" button shouldn't exist at all, cuz if all players should always have equal rights to "Need" item, then "Greed" button is enough to accomplish this task - that's why developers removing "Need" option from items, like crafting orbs and lockboxes. So, existence of "Need" button itself proves, that it should be used only to get items, that you will equip after that. Developers are just lazy and tried to decline all responsibility for loot distribution. But this is wrong, cuz players will never solve this dispute by their own - players will always think, that they deserve this item more, then some nonames in their party - i.e. "Need before greed" system is already dead and always was dead, cuz it just can't work properly. And that's why individual loot will be finally implemented in WOD. I really think, that it should have been done long time ago and that it's too late now, but better late, then never. And before this will happen: anyone, who needing items not to equip them - is obviously ninja-looter.
    Last edited by AVPaul; 2013-12-29 at 05:47 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    They're not removing it from flex; They're making it optional.

    They've indicated, in the distant past, that the personal loot system could come to 5-mans. I expect that it probably will.
    Yes, I think it will.

    There might be some kind of option to use the current system, depending how you entered the instance (LFD, premade group going in via LFD, going in via the actual entrance, etc).

  6. #26
    come on it's 5 man, blue item ... chill down

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosturn View Post
    If you need on something you can need on, it's not ninjaing in any way.
    Based 0n this statement if im a ret pally and thats my main spec i can roll need on all heal gear right so that means the heal cloth the heal leather and the heal plate BECAUSE i can need means its ok to take all the healer stuff hell mabye ill start rolling need on tanks shit too and i hope i get into YOUR groups so when you moan about me needing on your upgrade i can say hey i can roll need so i can have it and this is why the Wow Community has gone to shit cause of ppl that think like that

  8. #28
    I would dearly love it if they implemented personal loot for 5-mans.

    Then again, I've never differentiated based on level or who's with me; if it's something I wouldn't do to my raid team, I'm not doing it to the pug... so if a healing item drops and I'm not the healer, I'm not needing on it unless the healer doesn't need it.

    If I see you do it, I'm assuming you'd do it to your raid team and your guild mates as well, and taking it as a sign that I should be glad I'll never see you again.

  9. #29
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Needing on anything the system allows you to is not against the rules (check sig). It was set up that way so people could gear their offspecs while running dungeons in the spec they are strong at. Do you really want to force people to tank in shitty gear so they can get tank gear, when they can go as DPS and be less of a strain?

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance
    World of Warcraft has continued to improve looting in raids and dungeons to make traditional loot theft impossible. Many of the items in later dungeons and raids will not be accessible to players who do not meet the requirements and players will only be able to loot the items they are entitled to access.

    A player using the "Need" or "Greed" rolling option to win a loot roll (including rolls for off-spec items) is not breaking any rule, and is using the loot mechanics as designed. We will not assist if:

    • Need Before Greed was used as the looting method. This is the mandatory loot method for groups created using the Dungeon Finder.
    • Group Loot, Round Robin, or Free-for-All was used as the looting method.
    • Master Looter was used as the looting method, but rules were not clearly established.

    Blizzard will only take action in circumstances where a Master Looter has conducted a loot scam as described below. (Source)
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-12-30 at 09:40 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Needing on anything the system allows you to is not against the rules (check sig). It was set up that way so people could gear their offspecs while running dungeons in the spec they are strong at. Do you really want to force people to tank in shitty gear so they can get tank gear, when they can go as DPS and be less of a strain?
    Fallacious assumption: that it's difficult to get appropriate gear for your off-spec before running as it. Between BoE gear (crafted or bought), items won because nobody else has needed them (5-mans or raids), LFR off-spec rolls, and VP/JP purchases it is quite simple to put together most of a set.

    Second fallacious assumption: that I wouldn't want them in my group with sub-par gear. As long as they're doing the best they can and we are capable of progressing, I don't care what they have for gear. And I would absolutely rather have them tanking in 460 gear than have them DPSing in 560 gear and taking drops from the tank that he needs.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Needing on anything the system allows you to is not against the rules (check sig). It was set up that way so people could gear their offspecs while running dungeons in the spec they are strong at. Do you really want to force people to tank in shitty gear so they can get tank gear, when they can go as DPS and be less of a burden?

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance
    World of Warcraft has continued to improve looting in raids and dungeons to make traditional loot theft impossible. Many of the items in later dungeons and raids will not be accessible to players who do not meet the requirements and players will only be able to loot the items they are entitled to access.

    A player using the "Need" or "Greed" rolling option to win a loot roll (including rolls for off-spec items) is not breaking any rule, and is using the loot mechanics as designed. We will not assist if:

    • Need Before Greed was used as the looting method. This is the mandatory loot method for groups created using the Dungeon Finder.
    • Group Loot, Round Robin, or Free-for-All was used as the looting method.
    • Master Looter was used as the looting method, but rules were not clearly established.

    Blizzard will only take action in circumstances where a Master Looter has conducted a loot scam as described below. (Source)
    Pretty much. And I am perfectly fine with this but it needs only a slight tweaking.

    -Agility users should not be able to roll Need on Strength necks, rings, capes and trinkets. Greed Yes, Need No.
    -Strength users should not be able to roll Need on Agility necks, rings, capes and trinkets. Greed Yes, Need No.
    -Hunters should not be able to roll Need on Melee weapons. Greed Yes, Need No. You can even use half your abilities with a melee weapon equipped instead of a ranged one
    -Warriors and Rogues should not be able to roll Need on ranged weapons. Greed Yes, Need No. It's not a stat stick anymore, and you can't equip a ranged item at the same time as melee weapons, no melee weapon equipped you can't use your abilities.
    -Death Knights and Warriors should not be able to roll Need on cloth. Greed Yes, Need No.

    If I am DPS and the tank in the group rolls on my DPS gear fair enough, he might actually use it for his offspec, but can we just get the occasions where it really, really infuriates you fixed, the times when you know damn well the other person isn't going to use it, won't use it, shouldn't be using it and is just going to vendor it. What use is that 2 handed axe to the hunter in the group? Sure he can equip it but would he? is he? Is the tank going to use it? is the warrior/DK/Paladin DPS going to use it?
    Last edited by Cernunnos; 2013-12-30 at 09:48 AM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosturn View Post
    If you need on something you can need on, it's not ninjaing in any way.
    While this is debatable, being able to need on an item, and doing so just because you can... makes you a douche.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Fallacious assumption: that it's difficult to get appropriate gear for your off-spec before running as it. Between BoE gear (crafted or bought), items won because nobody else has needed them (5-mans or raids), LFR off-spec rolls, and VP/JP purchases it is quite simple to put together most of a set.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item. (Source)
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Second fallacious assumption: that I wouldn't want them in my group with sub-par gear. As long as they're doing the best they can and we are capable of progressing, I don't care what they have for gear. And I would absolutely rather have them tanking in 460 gear than have them DPSing in 560 gear and taking drops from the tank that he needs.
    Fallacious assumption: that you speak for everybody.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Needing on anything the system allows you to is not against the rules (check sig). It was set up that way so people could gear their offspecs while running dungeons in the spec they are strong at. Do you really want to force people to tank in shitty gear so they can get tank gear, when they can go as DPS and be less of a strain?

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance
    World of Warcraft has continued to improve looting in raids and dungeons to make traditional loot theft impossible. Many of the items in later dungeons and raids will not be accessible to players who do not meet the requirements and players will only be able to loot the items they are entitled to access.

    A player using the "Need" or "Greed" rolling option to win a loot roll (including rolls for off-spec items) is not breaking any rule, and is using the loot mechanics as designed. We will not assist if:

    • Need Before Greed was used as the looting method. This is the mandatory loot method for groups created using the Dungeon Finder.
    • Group Loot, Round Robin, or Free-for-All was used as the looting method.
    • Master Looter was used as the looting method, but rules were not clearly established.

    Blizzard will only take action in circumstances where a Master Looter has conducted a loot scam as described below. (Source)
    Developers are simply trying to decline all responsibility for loot distribution to avoid dealing with tons of tickets. And you should build simple chain of logical conclusions:
    1) If all players can find a reason to get any item, then all players should have equal rights to get it - i.e. should be able to use "Need" option.
    2) If all players should always have equal rights to get item, then do we really need two different buttons with two different priorities? It will only confuse players about what button should they use in this case (as it happened with crafting orbs and lockboxes). Let's simply remove "Need" button.
    3) If all players will have only one button to press, then do we really need a button at all? 99.99% of players will press it anyway. Let's remove this button and let system distribute loot automatically.
    So "equal rights" and "use "Need" button, wherever you can" rules are leading us to individual loot system. But individual loot system is not implemented yet. Therefore you should reverse this chain of logical conclusions back. And if you'll do it, then you'll find out, that "Need" button, and even any buttons at all, are still existing just because players don't have equal rights to get loot - some players have priority. And this priority is obviously - priority to get items, that are upgrades for them and items, that they'll equip. Abusing this priority to get items for selling, DEing, transmog, "just for lulz" (i.e. everything, for what "Greed" and "DE" buttons are intended to be used for) - is obviously ninja-looting. So "Need before greed" system is extremely flawed, cuz it lets players decide, should they have priority or not, by themselves - system is ambiguous and inconsistent, but developers just don't want to deal with tons of tickets, written in every disputable situation. So they're just removing all responsibility from themselves.
    Last edited by AVPaul; 2013-12-30 at 10:22 AM.
    Sorry for my bad english.
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  15. #35
    The Lightbringer
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    Legendaries aren't drops anymore, of course there's no real ninja looting anymore. 5man blues are getting you this upset? Yeah it's going to irritate me when some guy needs on something I want in a 5man in WoD but that's okay because I'm going to do it myself so I can't really complain when it happens to me. Get over it. Just run the damn thing again and again until you get what you want if it's that important of an upgrade. Get your mates to run with you and roll on shit for you like DS LFR. There's heaps of options but for me personally, I'm going to need on everything I can possibly use. If you need it and lose, too bad. It happens to me too but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
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  16. #36
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    Use the Timeless Isle / valor 522 loot / then LFRs. This isn't the beginning of MoP - dungeon blues mean nothing now.
    I can't agree more with this sentiment, you make it sound like dungeon 463 blues are the only way to progress in ilevel, when infact you can do dailies on Timeless and get coins to buy keys for = instant 496 real fast?

  17. #37
    1. Take your main to Timeless Isle
    2. Eat sleep and breathe that place until you're exalted with Emperor
    3. By that time you should have picked up enough timeless pieces to gear a dozen characters, maybe more (not an exaggeration, either, I've got stockpiles of the stuff on alts in their banks).

    Obviously I'm making it sound super simple, but it's an option to running 5 mans for 463s that most people are going to "need" in order to DE or xmog.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by AVPaul View Post
    Developers are simply trying to decline all responsibility for loot distribution to avoid dealing with tons of tickets. And you should build simple chain of logical conclusions:
    1) If all players can find a reason to get any item, then all players should have equal rights to get it - i.e. should be able to use "Need" option.
    2) If all players should always have equal rights to get item, then do we really need two different buttons with two different priorities? It will only confuse players about what button should they use in this case (as it happened with crafting orbs and lockboxes). Let's simply remove "Need" button.
    3) If all players will have only one button to press, then do we really need a button at all? 99.99% of players will press it anyway. Let's remove this button and let system distribute loot automatically.
    You're falsely trying to reduce the way the game works to absurdity.

    When you play the game with randomly matchmade party members, you have given up your right to have loot distributed the way that you think it should be distributed.

    The game provides a fair framework within which players must operate. You should accept that framework, or urge Blizzard to change it. But complaining about random party members and their different interpretations of fair looting is pointless.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Needing on anything the system allows you to is not against the rules (check sig). It was set up that way so people could gear their offspecs while running dungeons in the spec they are strong at. Do you really want to force people to tank in shitty gear so they can get tank gear, when they can go as DPS and be less of a strain?

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance
    World of Warcraft has continued to improve looting in raids and dungeons to make traditional loot theft impossible. Many of the items in later dungeons and raids will not be accessible to players who do not meet the requirements and players will only be able to loot the items they are entitled to access.

    A player using the "Need" or "Greed" rolling option to win a loot roll (including rolls for off-spec items) is not breaking any rule, and is using the loot mechanics as designed. We will not assist if:

    • Need Before Greed was used as the looting method. This is the mandatory loot method for groups created using the Dungeon Finder.
    • Group Loot, Round Robin, or Free-for-All was used as the looting method.
    • Master Looter was used as the looting method, but rules were not clearly established.

    Blizzard will only take action in circumstances where a Master Looter has conducted a loot scam as described below. (Source)
    Before there even was any restriction as to what certain specs and classes could roll on, we already had an idea of what people should roll on. People should roll need on things they need for their main spec. If theres's a melee dps and a tank, and a melee dps item drops that is an upgrade for the melee dps in the group, he should get it and not the tank. No matter what Blizzard has said. Blizzard doesn't dictate what a ninja is, the community does.

    Why should people be able to gear up for their second spec before another group member can gear up for his main spec? Ideally there should be three buttons. Main need, second need and greed/disenchant. That way, no tank can ever roll main need on a dps item, only second need, which will make sure he gets the item, if there's no one rolling main need. People who don't have a melee dps spec can only roll greed/disenchant.

  20. #40
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Before there even was any restriction as to what certain specs and classes could roll on, we already had an idea of what people should roll on. People should roll need on things they need for their main spec. If theres's a melee dps and a tank, and a melee dps item drops that is an upgrade for the melee dps in the group, he should get it and not the tank. No matter what Blizzard has said. Blizzard doesn't dictate what a ninja is, the community does.
    It should be important to note that tanks rarely go for "tanking" stats. Prot paly goes for haste, monks/druids go for crit, etc. Shit, [Thok's Tail Tip] is BiS for guardian druids.

    Most of the time people complain about "ninja'ing" is from people who don't understand what other classes need. I've seen plenty of times healers throwing a hissy fit because a shadow/ele/boomkin rolled need on spirit gear. Or from melee, when hunters need on expertise. And sometimes pieces with spirit are still upgrades for mages/locks just because of ilvl. Just like sometimes pieces with parry/dodge are upgrades for a dps just because of ilvl. Reforge makes those pieces less suboptimal.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-12-31 at 12:26 AM.

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