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  1. #1

    Garrosh N-10 help, also class help

    well we are at 70 attempts and only seen p3 like 2 times. I was completely at a loss after last sundays raid, so i decided to make a wol account. Currently we are 1 tanking(prot pally) 3 healing (holy pally, disc priest, holy priest) 6 dps. Please rip these logs apart, we have dps doing quite low numbers for their gear (in my opinion) and healers that seem like they cant keep up when we 2 heal.

    here is our best attempt from tonight

    link to all attempts

    seriously though, any help is appreciated.

  2. #2
    While I can see the pros of going single tank for this fight, just skimming through your logs, I honestly think you should go to 2 tank/2 healers just given the number of preventable deaths that eventually lead to wipes due to single tanking. Several of your DPS died due to the add in the Crane temple, wasting both a battle rez and valuable time in which Garrosh is regenning health. There have also been several attempts where your tank has died from Gripping Despair or in Phase 1 due too much damage. Single tanking while doable, honestly seems like a bit of a coin flip to me, especially with the low DPS your raid is putting out.

    Moving onto my next point, which would be your raid's DPS, you're absolutely right, their raid DPS is incredibly low. At 560 ilevel they should be pulling at least 300k on such a heavy add fight. Your ele shaman especially is amusing me since we're currently carrying an ele shammy to gear him up and he's doing as much damage on Garrosh right now (540 ilevel) as your ele shammy. Unfortunately I don't play one so I wouldn't be able to offer any help in that department. Although I can say that you should probably shout at your ele shammy to throw down stormlash totem more often, an 11 min fight and only 1 stormlash?

    Looking over your destro warlock on the other hand...

    1) I strongly suspect that he's embercapping himself. The number of single target incinerates he's casting with the low number of chaos bolts/shadowburns he's churning out really doesn't line up. What is he doing with all of his embers? If he's getting embercapped then he's wasting DPS with the potential chaos bolts he could have done.

    2) His Immolate uptime is fairly low, 35.6% on your 10:15min fight is really bad, pretty much means he's just letting it drop off and not paying noticing it at all.

    3) If he's going to pad metres in the first phase, he could use all of those extra embers that he's getting to havoc chaos bolts onto Garrosh and the weapons. He has barely has any damage on the weapons save for shadowburn snipes and extra chaos bolts on Garrosh in P1 will at least get you guys out of that phase a lot faster given how you guys happen to have a number of wipes on P1.

    Also for your disc priest:

    1) Ditch halo and pick up Divine Star, much better spell with how stacked the raid usually is.

    2) With the amount of prayer of healing spamming your disc priest is doing, his Spirit Shell usage is incredibly low.

    3) His Atonement healing is really pathetic. Low smite damage, low solace damage, which means your priest isn't using Solace on CD which means he's not getting full mana returns from it either and isn't getting Evangelism stacks.

    4) Archangel used TWICE especially when he's had 32 stacks of Evangelism in your 10:14 attempt. I can't stress how really, really, really, really bad this is.

    5) Renew is a fairly awful spell to use as a disc priest. Your GCDs are better spent on something else.

    6) Far too many flash heals used, especially when you have two other healers.

    7) Throughout all 14 attempts your disc priest used Pain Suppression/Void Shift a grand total of ZERO times. Boy, those CDs sure would have been helpful for those wipes when your tank died due to taking too much damage.
    Last edited by Naela; 2013-12-11 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #3
    funny story, last night is actually the first time we have 1 tanked, the reason we did this is because our healers cant keep us alive during whirling corruption when we 2 heal . That was the whole reason why we switched, to hopefully squeeze out enough HPS/DPS to make a differance.

    As for our shaman they have had incredibly low numbers every pull this fight. so last night we said to just kill the weapons since others DPS was better suited on the boss.

    awesome for the info so far! Any one else any help?

  4. #4
    In your 10:14 best attempt, your Fire Mage cast Combustion and Alter-time once each. These are the only two meaningful CDs at a Fire Mage's disposal, and they are basically being ignored. They also spent the fight in Frost Armor, which sacrificed much needed Crit. Put simply, Ditlek needs to consult a guide for playing Fire. Huge improvement is possible.

  5. #5
    My 10 man guild just killed this recently with 2 tanks and 3 healers. Slow and steady wins the race if you perform mechanics better than a baboon.

  6. #6
    Your arcane mage should have 9762 haste, and should be using frost armour - not mage armour for this fight. 150k is low for his i561 gear. Should be 200k+. Is he doing the engineer btw ? Blink + Rapid displacement glyph + blazing speed makes it ideal for a mage to do.

    Here is a vid to my kill (ilvl was 553) (Arcane Mage (Me) PoV mostly )
    Last edited by Pyropanda; 2013-12-11 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #7
    First thing is theres no way you should solo tank this for a first kill. Gripping despair will rape your tank. Go 2 tanks 2 heals.

    Your prot pala isn't using divine protection enough. It has a god like synergy with the 2 set (which he has). DP is 40% less magical damage for 10 seconds every 30. The 2 piece bonus HoT's him for the next 10 seconds for 75% of the damage he took while DP was active. That means without the CDR trink hes got 10 seconds out of every 30 without DP or the HoT the 2 piece gives him if he uses it to its full potential. On the longest attempt linked he used DP 7 times. He could have used it about 22 times.

    As was said above, disc priest healing revolves around smiting to get stacks of evangelism and then using the buff for 25% more healing while its active. It's critical to manage this buff (ie keep high uptime) - the buff is called archangel and was up 11% of the time. That's pretty terrible. The short version is smite more to get the buff (penance is low too) and use PoH a LOT less. It shouldn't really be a spell you use unless you spirit shell. Don't forget utility like pain sup and barrier.

    The holy pala is using divine purpose and not holy avenger. General rule of thumb is to use holy avenger. It's a huuuuuge healing CD whereas DP is just a proc that may proc when needed (but probably won't!) I'm a big fan of predictability in healing, if you know the fight you know when to use the CD's rather than hoping for a proc.

    The mages need to watch their invokers energy / rune of power buffs. If they fall off it's bad. Currently they are hovering between 60 to 70%. They should aim for 90%. I know Garrosh is movement intense but its something they can improve on. Their living bomb uptimes are also low and that's hurting them too. They need to use weakauras or tell-me-when's to track this.

  8. #8
    no, our disc priest was doing engineer so the arcane mage was on garrosh/adds full time.

    as for the pally (which is me) I was using DP right before whiriling corruption since its all magical damage. When i have it glyphed for 20/20 its used all the time, but i usually keep it ready for lots of magic dmg otherwise.

    Trust me i would much much much rather 2 tank this but every one elses numbers just arnt there. When we 2 tank 3 heal the phases last way to long. When we 2 tank it people die when they shouldnt be etc etc.

    Awesome for the mage insights! Ill let them know!

    Keep it coming!

  9. #9
    1 Tanking is unusual, I'm not sure of the tank mechanics but I do know that 2 is alot more regular. Anyway if you can do it with 1 tank, you should.

    Your 2 priest healers are both around 60k. Your paladin is 90k... That is around 210k HPS - My guess is if you were to dump one of the healers 2 could still pump out ~ 105k HPS each, their low healing is simply because there isn't enough to heal and the lack of the extra dps is causing more healing.

    If you are comfortable solo tanking then go for it as it is a nice dps gain, but I'd switch one of your healers for a dps too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    QUick question - Which raid member is providing your spellhaste buff ? Can't work it out :/ Ah Sec its your elemental... He should be way higher than he is in this fight tbh.

  10. #10
    You do have enough damage to get a kill and really should 2 tank 2 heal. On our first kill all of our Dps ranged from 180-220k and Hps ranged 90-120k. The way we handled empowered whirls is we will pop 1 raid cd and a hybrid for each one. (Example: First emp whirl we stack I AMZ while resto druid tranqs. Spread as soon as amz falls.) How are you guys handling the minions? With a dk you should be able to kill them very quickly have Orpheis drop glyph of anti magic shell for glyph of dark command (The d grip reset one). Also have him drop glyph of tranquil grip.

  11. #11
    if i continue to one tank it we will have to 3 heal i can almost promise that just because of the extra dmg i am taking. When we 2 heal we die to the empowered whirling corruptions even with raid CDS.

    As for the minions they always caused a problem untill last night, out of no where people were handling the great. And omg yes the grip reset is an amazing idea why did i not think of that lol.

  12. #12
    As an ele shaman I can say aoe in phase 1 , while it might seem good is actually a waste. Cl does significantly less damage to garosh then a normal Dps rotation and you get very little back. It's better for him to take thunderstorm glyph and capacitor glyph; stun adds after war song and knockback into star. Thunder glyph makes it so he can do every one .The more aoe u pour on the longer phase 1 takes.

  13. #13
    I didn't look at your logs, just went off what others said that read them, but garrosh should be 2 tanked. It can be solo tanked but it is difficult for transitions. P1 can be solo tanked, that is the easy part. Other than the others in the raid picking up their dps, something that might help is lusting immediately after you come down from first transition. Usually can burn the boss down and never get an empowered whirling corruption unless you are slow in the transition and his energy bar gets too high. For my typical run it goes like this: P1 solo tanked by me, transition, p2 lust immediately, taunt swap at 3 stacks, no EWC, transition 2 at roughly 20% hp, burn in transition phase, finish outside, p3, win! This is very reliant on people managing the MCs almost immediately. I use asphyxiate for that very reason. Anyhoo, try the lust after 1st transition. might help a bit.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Naela View Post

    1) Ditch halo and pick up Divine Star, much better spell with how stacked the raid usually is.

    5) Renew is a fairly awful spell to use as a disc priest. Your GCDs are better spent on something else.
    dude, halo shits all over empowered whirl and is well worth it on garrosh, they already have a paladin anyways to make annihilate phases a non-issue, and they said annihilates

    and there really isn't much to do on garrosh while moving out of desecrate other than to renew the tanks because nobody ever takes any damage on that fight

    other than that, all his comments are very correct

    make sure he's spirit shelling at least half of whirls, preferably more

    really get him using archangel, or even if he holds it for whirls instead of using it on cd, just get him to use it

    other than that, if you do decide to 2 heal, alternate between spirit shell and your paladin's personal cds for each whirl, or if your healers can't handle it, consider having
    your holy priest going chastise chakra and blow shit up until empowered whirls start

    your holy priest should consider trying surge of light, it's really crazy with the new holy 2p and buffs it received, especially since he's already spamming flash of light a ton already

    tell your holy priest to not spend the entire fight in inner will

    overall, your whole raid could be using dps, healing, and defensive cooldowns more often, the numbers of barriers, devo auras, demo banners, divine hymns, rallying cries, despite being there, they could be well more in number, try making a healing/defensive cooldown rotation for every 3 or 4 whirls, these can also be used for iron star crashes, you can also do as I said above and have healers rotate their personal cds (if they have them, some classes don't)
    such as:
    1: rallying cry+demo banner from warrior, spirit shell
    2: devo aura+ some holy paladin healing increase personal cooldowns, healing tide totem+ancestral guidance
    3: devo aura, spirit shell
    4: barrier in melee, AMZ somewhere else, if you have your holy priest doing chastise chakra, divine hymn, if not, vampiric embrace if he goes shadow

    also, tell people to dodge the purple swirlies, those things fucking hurt and you will come close to dying if not actually dying if you take one while still progressing on the fight, but after a bit of heroic gear, you'll be able to face soak them for fun

    I mean, if you guys can down thok, none of this fight should be too much trouble for you guys

    and make sure people are using their personal defensive cds

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Evoix View Post
    if i continue to one tank it we will have to 3 heal i can almost promise that just because of the extra dmg i am taking. When we 2 heal we die to the empowered whirling corruptions even with raid CDS.
    are you standing too close to garrosh? everyone except the active tank should be at range, at least 30+ yards away.

  16. #16
    Fluffy Kitten Forsedar's Avatar
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    Oct 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Your strat has to be all times of goofed up. Surprisingly, aside from bad gameplay, a bad strat is almost equally as awful. I'm not going to TELL you what to do, just give you simple suggestions.

    I 2 healed Garrosh with a Disc Priest who was probably just as bad as your Disc Priest. At the time of our first kill, I was 541 IL (Resto Shaman). The ONLY time healing became demanding was during the final phase when we all had no CDs and Empowered Whirling was going out, but we killed him before anyone died.

    Now, just like stated above in one of the other comments: your Disc Priest is NOT using cooldowns efficiently, wasting GCDs on useless abilities and overall just button mashing hoping to win. The first sets of Empowered Whirling should not be an issue *at all* with 3 healers (or even 2). You can easily just chain 2 healing CDs back-to-back when the first Empowered Whirling goes out and last through it. If people aren't spreading appropriately and eating the shit on the ground, well, that isn't a healing issue. How exactly do you guys handle Desecrate? I figured that shouldn't be an issue at all, but if your healers aren't performing and you somehow fall behind due to Desecrate damage, then Empowered Whirling will hurt a lot more.

    Also, are MCs handled appropriately? Are the targets actually interrupted? That is also a big thing that can cause a raid to easily fall behind if they're not focused on. Overall, it just looks like a combined issue of:

    1) DPS aren't fully doing their jobs. A lot of bad gameplay all around.
    2) Healers need to efficiently use CDs when the time comes, such as devo-->spiritshells for the Empowereds. Unfortunately you do not have a Resto Shaman so I can't really give advice like I would have been able to.
    3) I can't think of a 3rd.


    His FS uptime is rather low. 75% on Garrosh isn't TOO bad, but that means hes accidentally putting his shocks on CD (probably Fulmination) which is a no-no if FS is about to expire.

    147k DPS is *extremely* low for 561 IL. I was 528 parsing 168k on no-cleave fights (single target) with movement. Granted, I've played Ele since BC, 561 still leaves no excuse.

    The only thing I can gather (his reforging and gearing is fine) is that he is just missing LvB procs and not lining up CDs when he can. I feel like he might have had a lot of downtime, because 78 Lava Burst sover 10 min is like, how many he should do within the first 5 min, especially with Ascendance.

    Also one thing I noticed: He *NEEDS* to swap out of Elemental Blast. I'm assuming his rotation is off, and improper EB usage is dreadful for your DPS. He'd actually benefit a lot more with Unleashed Fury as a talent. That will give him quite a DPS boost and can be used on CD, so there is little room for error.
    Last edited by Forsedar; 2013-12-11 at 08:45 PM.

  17. #17
    Spent the last month raiding with different guild and had to work out some more kinks so I thought I would share some of the changes I've had to make to playing in order to reach their level. some of these things are fairly basic that i've been doing for a while and some of these things were a pain in the ass that I had to get used to.

    most of these will apply more to your lock but they can be adapted to anyone.

    1st Key bindings - everything here can be easily hit with your left hand, the only ones that will cause you to move away from WADS are the F keys which you could replace with Shift + 1-5 or something.

    F1 Target myself
    F2 Healthstone
    F3 lock portal
    F4 Embertap
    F5 Twilight ward
    These are basically save my ass bindings that I shouldn't have to hit too often.

    1. Conflagrate (damage + spell modifier)
    2. Immolate (dot)
    3 Fel Flame
    4. Havoc
    5. shadowfury (stun)
    6. soulshatter (agro drop)

    Alt + 1 Fire and Brimstone
    Alt + 2 burning rush
    Alt + 3 spell lock
    Alt + 4 Mouseover Havoc

    Shift +1 Doomguard (10 minute cooldown)
    Shift +2 Darksoul (2 minute cooldown dps buff)
    Shift +3 Berzerk (3 minute cooldown Dps buff)
    Shift +4 Potion

    F = Target Focus (I absolutely hate when i mis click and target someone else and have to spend the time trying to click back on the right target!!! this didn't really increase my dps but it made it a lot more even, rather than bouncing between 400-600k i ended up averaging higher and staying more consistent.)
    Alt + F = focus target (this way you don't have to right click the boss and find focus target and click it, during the phase changes on garrosh you lose your focus so you can do this Alt+F during a spell cast to refocus your target without interrupting your spell!)

    Wheel forward - Incinerate(filler spell)
    Wheel Backwards Chaosbolt (big daddy damage spell)

    I have two aditional buttons on my mouse on the left side that you normally use in a browser to browse forward and backwards. I use the forward one for Rain of Fire (rain spell you have to place) it makes it so easy to click it and set it while running
    the back one i use for shadowburn my execute spell.

    as you can see from above I have made 99% of the spells I use while in an encounter key or mouse bound

    this makes it so you never have to click on anything with your mouse unless you are targeting an add and even then you can be casting spells on the boss while target the add there's no reason for you to have to stop you can be mid cast and target another mob and your cast will still go off and hit the mob you had originally targeted

    this also allows for ease of movement without loss of DPS, throughout the entire fight I almost always have my right mouse button held down. this allows me to point myself in any direction i want while still having access to all my key and mouse binds, i can watch over the entire raid and know whats going on without having to turn left or right.

    This also allows me to different methods of running, if i want to run while hitting a spell on my keyboard i just press my finger down onto the left button, this lets me run around while my left hand does whatever i want it to do, once i'm done with that i can hit my forward button and continue running while i use my mouse to control my direction as well as use my filler spell, place my rain, and whatever else i need to do.

    the result of this is 0 damage loss during movement!!!!

    I'll be completely honest with you guys, change sucks, getting used to all these new key binds sucked, but it has made me a much better player who can react to change more easily and come back from a mistake in the rotation with more confidence. I made plenty of mistakes in the beginning it took me a week of raiding roughly 12 hours of forcing myself to use these keybinds before i started to feel at all comfortable.

    2nd your UI

    declutter your UI, all those helpful addons for tracking rares, saving your gathering locations, etc are only hindering you while raiding. by no means get rid of them but actually go into your character select screen and disable them while raiding. even if these aren't getting in the way they are taking of memory which can cause you to lag, make you miss a heal, miss an execute, miss out on a win!!!

    give yourself a nice clean UI with unobstructed views so you can see whats going on in the fight, this will increase your reaction time for things such as weapons in phase 1 or his cone aoe in TOES intermission.

    Make sure you have DBM setup so that when things pop up you can easily see them but so that they aren't going to get in your way.

    Weakauras, I see a lot of people using this just to warn them of stuff coming from the boss, basically a secondary DBM type system. sure it's helpful that way but you are really missing out on setting them up so that when your trinket procs it pops right out at you, when your CD is up it's telling you so you can hit it again right away. it's less things you have to micromanage, less things you have to pick out of your buff bar that already has a lot going on.

    if you guys want i can post a picture of what my UI looks like.

    3. compare yourself to others

    yes when comparing yourself to some i-level 580 player the numbers aren't going to come up the same, but look at the %. look to see what the uptime on their dots are for bosses such as Iron Juggernaut and Malkorok (closest thing you'll find to single target fights) see what % of their damage is coming from what spell maybe you're not using one of your spells enough or your rotation is slightly off. go to the icy vein forums and post some WoL parses from a fight and have your fellow shaman, hunters, priests pick apart what you're doing and try to figure out how to do better. Garrosh is a horrible fight to look at parses cause people may have different jobs during the fight, different strats etc.

    When I first joined this guild I was competing against 3 other warlocks in parses, they were nice enough to sit me down the first time and go over the logs and show me how to improve, after that it was up to me. I went from 450k on the fallen protectors to over 600k just from their advice which ended up me just doing 1 thing a little bit differently, 1 think improved my dps by 150k!!!!! that's insane. no matter how well you think that you're playing, how well you think you understand the writeups out there, there's a good chance you could be doing something better.

  18. #18
    I would strongly recommend 2 tanking 2 healing Garrosh for your first kill. I suspect the reason you cannot 2 heal is down to your disc priest.

    at 560 ilvl your disc priests divine aegis should be 30%+ of his healing. His atonement usage is horrible - I spend most of this fight smiting and spirit shelling before big damage (whirling/intermissions)

    His twist of fate uptime is also really low (36%) on a fight with multiple add phases it should be closer to 60% or better. In our 7min kill this week I gained a total of 355410 mana from fiend and 247050 from rapture - your priest in a 10min attempt gained

    rapture: 247050 mana
    Mana Leech: 108000 mana
    Power Word: Solace: 60000 mana

    he should use a weak aura for holy fire off CD or consider using mindbender as he just isnt maxing his mana return which is going to make the rest of his healing suffer.

    Inner focus 45sec cd used twice in almost 11mins - 28times overall for the night.

    In short: attonement more, find a way of tracking rapture and solace/mindbender and use them on cooldown, Use cooldowns (painsup, void shift, achangel, innerfocus) and as others have said consider swapping to divine star. He should contribute some meaningful dps and see his healing go up a lot.
    You cant heal stupid, but you sure can shield it.

  19. #19

    Every damn post about Garrosh normal is about dying to this mechanic and they all whinge how they can't heal through it. Of course you can't with the raid spread out and that amount of damages going. That's why you use raid and personal cooldowns. With the amount of cooldowns you have you can have a rotation for every EWC that happens.

  20. #20
    2 tank 2 heal, don't kill Desecrated Weapons in p2 (stack them along the wall starting at his throne).

    The 'goal' for a good first kill is to hit p3 before the 3rd transition and hopefully as soon after the 2nd as possible.

    Use raid/personal cds for whirling corruption, there's no other situations that require cds on this fight, use them here.

    I wouldn't recommend 1 tanking for progress, it's not particularly hard to do (we 1 tank 1 heal now) but if you haven't killed the fight already it's not gonna change much and you'll likely see some wipes because of it.
    Last edited by Thisisanalt; 2014-01-07 at 11:51 AM.

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