Demon hunter vs tinker/ alchemist class

[Thimagryn]

Right.

And for your Tinker concept, the hero is clearly Goblin Tinker. I doubt anyone but Goblins can become them.

[Teriz]

Right.

And for your Tinker concept, the hero is clearly Goblin Tinker. I doubt anyone but Goblins can become them.

Except that we know that there are also Gnome and Dwarven Tinkers.

Tinkers are most commonly found among the dwarves, gnomes, and goblins as they produce rifles, zeppelins, and other technological innovations currently found on Azeroth.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Tinker

[Thimagryn]

So you're sourcing the non-canon RPG books now?

[Rhamses]

So which class concept is better?

Chemist:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...concept-(Long)

Tinker:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ss-Idea-(Long)

Demon Hunter: (even though its no longer in contention)
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Hunters-(Long)

[Teriz]

So you're sourcing the non-canon RPG books now?

Would you prefer High Tinker Gelbin Mekkatorque directly from WoW itself?

Howabout the new Gnome capital called Tinkertown?

[Thimagryn]

I'd probably say this one:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ss-idea-(Long)

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Would you prefer High Tinker Gelbin Mekkatorque directly from WoW itself?

Who isn't the Goblin Tinker hero from Warcraft 3. I don't think Mekkatorque would fit your Hammer Tank concept, he's more of a Gyrocopter kind of guy.

[Teriz]

Who isn't the Goblin Tinker hero from Warcraft 3. I don't think Mekkatorque would fit your Hammer Tank concept, he's more of a Gyrocopter kind of guy.

Perhaps not, but there are examples of Gnomes wearing variations of the hammer tank, and they come directly from Blizzard;

[Jtree]

This would be better handled in the other thread, but here goes:

You created new abilities,

Duh, it's a class concept.

ignored the bit where DHs make pacts with demons,

Source? Everything I've seen has led me to the understanding I depicted in the outline:

When a demon dies in the mortal plane, its spirit returns to the Twisting Nether, to wait for another entry or summon to the mortal realm. This is how warlocks are able to summon the same indentured demons time after time, and sometimes even sacrifice the creatures to siphon their essences for additional power.

Demon Hunters make no such deals. A new demon hunter seeks out and slaughters a powerful demon that represents the powers he wants to wield. Then, the demon hunter captures its spirit before it can return to the Nether, absorbing it into himself. This gives the DH access to immense power, and equal danger.

and kept the rest of the same design space DHs already share with Warlocks.

As I showed above, Demon Hunters and Warlocks start from a different place, and travel in widely divergent directions. I covered my vision of DH lore in the next post I made in that thread.

I believe that they are as alike in being "demon" classes as druids and hunters are as "beast" classes:
Hunters have pet bears, druids turn into bears.
Warlocks have pet demons, DHs kill and eat demons.

So if I'm understanding right... You're expecting people to WANT to play a class which, at any point in time, can be MIND CONTROLLED BY HIS OWN SECONDARY RESOURCE. I can imagine that going well during progression... "Guys, wipe it." "WHY??? WE'RE AT 5%!!!" "cause I fucked up my resource, just wipe it."

Anytime? No, you're not understanding it right. It says "Upon ending combat..." If you read further in the thread, I explained that I think a bad DH will get himself killed, a good one won't, and a great one will know when to push is. Plus, killing scrubs after an LFR boss kill could be quite cathartic.

You give them a glorified Destruction melee spec wit too few abilities to really call a spec. You give them a glorified Glyph of Demon Hunting spec. And you give them... a counter spec? Counter effects have been slowly removed from the game as time went on, and no spec could be entirely based on them, so that's not viable. Glyph of Demon Hunting is for Warlocks, and if you're going to make a melee Destro spec you might as well just hand it to Warlocks considering they already USE destro spec.

No imagination whatsoever.

I haven't spent much time as destro over the last four expansions, but I don't really recall it at any point have channeled attacks, or melee attacks. I have spent a lot of time playing Dark Apotheosis, as well as all the real tanking specs, and I basically designed my Bulwark spec with the memory of Frost DK tanking (RIP), updated to the current active mitigation style. The Spellbreaker spec was my favorite idea, but I can see that it's the hardest to grasp. It's meant to be a spec with passive and active damage absorbing and reflecting abilities. Pretty lousy as a DPS spec, could be tons of fun for PvP or tanking.

I won't even get into the talents, considering the first row alone is so imbalanced and unlike the current talent system's grouping that it's not worth my time to go over.

Yeeeaaaaah...That first talent row isn't my favorite. I admit, it's kinda a mishmash of other classes' talents.

Rows 4 and 6, however, are exciting and very definitive for my DH vision.

So in terms of what's USABLE from what you made in this concept... You have a warlock spec. Big shocker there, huh?

You get out what you go into it with. You went in closed minded, so that's all you could see. Others, more curious about the potential Demon Hunters hold (and less married to their own visions of what should happen with the game) might embrace the idea. I certainly had several of those replies when I made the thread (before the mods inexplicably moved it to the WoD forum).

If you want more specifics on my idea, asks over there. For my thoughts overall on how a DH and warlock differ, and why there is room for both in WoW, ask here. Specific questions can get specific answers.

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Can we put it to rest now

I'm sure that there were no plans for a monk class five or six years ago. Blizzard has done lots of things they probably didn't initially plan on, let alone things that have gone against earlier ideas: PvE=>PvP realm transfer, faction swap, cross realm mail, etc.

This tweet did not say there will never be a demon hunter. It says they have no plans for it. So we are left to muse on how far ahead they are currently planning. IIRC, I've read they already have the next two expansions past WoD on the drawing board. Assuming Zarhym was fully honest about all current planning, and Blizzard already has such key points like class additions set in stone, we can infer that there won't be a demon hunter class in WoW 6.x, 7.x, or 8.x. So...

DEMON HUNTERS IN 2020!!!!!!!!


And that, kids, is how you infer.

[Talen]

For you to plausibly say Warlocks are Demon Hunters, it must be stated lore

And if Blizzard bring in DHs as a Warlock 4th spec it WILL be stated lore. I'm simply pointing out that there are no gameplay, mechanics or lore issues stopping them and - with the existing design overlap Blizzard themselves have referred to - a very likely path for them to take.

As many have said, until Lore has stated it otherwise, the current definitions of Warlock and Demon Hunter are clearly separate.

Clearly. Warlocks are those who go to demons and enter into a pact to gain acess to demons, demonic power and abilities.

This, of course is very different from Demon Hunters - who are those who go to demons and enter into a pact to gain access to demons, demonic power and abilities.

So yes...clearly separate. One is melee, the other caster. Other than that....essentially then same.

The assumption that they are the same defies current lore

No. It doesn't. It defies YOUR interpretation of the lore. Lore does not say they aren't the same. More to the point..lore says they are.

Both, after all, are beings who got to demons and get more power through pacts. That is the lore for both classes. DHs just focus that power on melee combat, warlocks on ranged. That's the difference. They share a look, theme, abilities. They occupy the same design space.

All they lack is melee viability. They have EVERYTHING else canon gives DH

and it's clear that Blizzard has maintained a separation.

Yep - and they've done this by continuing the design direction they've taken for 7 years wherein both DHs and Warlocks become closer to each other. We have DHs using Warlock abilities, and we have Warlock using DH abilities. We have both classes making use of the same theme and design space - an issue Blizzard themselves have pointed out. We have them using the same look and employing thne same class concept.

Seriously - when Blizzard themselves has pointed to the overlap in design space as an issue, how can you say there is separation?

The Green Fire quest line even explains the source of the Warlock's Metamorphosis ability as pure mimicry of Illidan.

Yes. Yet another link between the two classes that Blizzrad has continued to put into the game, yet another tie strengthend, yet another chain forged.

Could Demon Hunters and Warlocks become one and the same? Yes. It's possible, but it has not yet happened.

There is no 4th spec yet, true. Melee viability is all they lack.

Reading the whole transcript, it just means they haven't planned anything for a Demon Hunter. It says nothing of the potential for one in the future, it only addresses the now; which is exactly what we know already.

Yes....but if they aren't even planning one NOW, that effectively rules out a standalone class for the next three years. And with the Warlock looking to get even closer to the DH, then a standalone class becomes even less likely, if that was possible.

The concept of having a cursed soul remains a foundation of my example. Warlocks borrow that power, they do not go the full length of binding demons to their own souls. This is the reason why names of demons change, because it puts across the idea that you are always summoning different demons, not binding one to a permanent contract.

And at the end of the day, that simply ignores existign DH lore wghich DOES state you make a pact. Even if we again give you the benefit of the doubt, the problem here is that even in your idea, the DH is getting a Cursed Soul because - just like Warlocks - he is making a deal with Demons.

That is why your idea fails. Both DHs and Warlocks are making deals with demons, both end up with Cursed or Damned souls, but because your DH uses his demonic power differently, that slight difference is worth a fully fledged class slot - to you. Even were we to accept your explanation, slight differences aren't enough to overcome the design space issue.

The truth though is that under your Cursed Soul example, an idea already taken by the Death Knight and Warlock classes, your DH still ends up making a Pact with Demons for Demonic Power. It still keeps a massive overlap in design space with Warlocks.

Did I already mention that massive overlap in design space in all areas save gameplay was what was holding back the standalone DH class concept? Yes, I did. And you have shown nothing here except that its impossible to leave that design space without breaking what is already known about DHs.

So - maybe Blizzard will bring in DHs. Maybe they will rebuild it from scratch. But if they do, they won't be copying Warlocks. They'd be giving the class its own unique deisgn space, one that isn't already used in game. The existing Demon Hunters will either be retconned or simply written out as "old school" anachronisms.

I'm simply lending potential backstory to build and form a plausible Demon Hunter idea without conflicting with Warlocks.

And you failed. You created lore where DHs still make pacts with Demons..just like Warlocks.

I think it should be understandable that any Gameplay designed would be unique, despite any similarities between classes.

Gameplay is doable, regardless of whether it is class or spec based. Gameplay is the easiest aspect to make unique, but its also the most transferable and thus the apsect least associated with the class. The aspect which has least impact on the design space. Can you make the rest of the design space unique and still keep to the existing class lore?

You haven't so far. Your ideas STILL have the DH gaining access to Demonic power and Energies for example.

I simply believe there is potential theme to explore beyond 'Melee Warlock' as everyone seems to argue about.

There's about as much potential as any other existing spec. But a lot of the DH lore is about his relationship with demons. Which is the exact same as that of Warlocks.

Wouldn't that be a technicality?

Blizzard lives on technicalities when it comes to questions such as this. This answer is highly unusual because of its relative clarity.

It would have Demon Hunter gameplay, Demon Hunter lore, and be wholly relevant to the expansion in which it is introduced in.

But it wouldn't be called a Demon Hunter so therefore wouldn't have the lore. It wouldn't have DH gameplay because they gameplay it did have would be for whatever name it had. It might be wholly relevant to the Xpac it was brought in on, but unless it had a different theme, that would be unneeded since Warlcoks could fill the same role.

So - no DH lore, no DH gameplay, no DH involvement with Demons as thats the story Warlocks would be involved with.

So how do Demon Hunters exactly gain their powers again?

The same way Warlocks do - they make a pact with Demons.

Doesn't look like a Warlock to me.

Yes...it does.

Cloth armor, a single 1H sword and is about to cast a spell. You could argue he's a mage as well, but the claws really point more to Demons.

So you're sourcing the non-canon RPG books now?

As are you - most of your preconceptions about Demons Hunters originate from there.

So which class concept is better?

The Demon Hunter - at least, as depicted in game. It's just not viable as a standalone class.

Source?

Blizzards WC3 website. DHs make pacts with Demons for power. So do Warlocks. DH wield Demonic energies and abilities. So do Warlocks.

I believe that they are as alike in being "demon" classes as druids and hunters are as "beast" classes:

Druids and hunters have different design spaces. They have different class concepts, roles, lore, abilities, themes, looks and so on. There is overlap there because of the wilderness and beast and nature aspects but, overall, not a huge amount.

Warlocks and DHs share a look, a theme. They share abilities and skills. They share the same source of power and the same class theme.

The major area of difference is gameplay....DHs are melee, and Warlocks are casters.

If you can provide any other difference of note, you would be the first to do so.

But the simple truth of the matter is that Blizzard has been bringing the two classes closer and closer together for years. They both share and use abilities available to the other, they share a look, a theme, they both make pacts with demons and use demon magics...and all of this is current lore. This canon.

So the end question is - with only a limited space for new class options, and with the existing overlap in place, why would Blizzrad choose to use the DH instead of something with an open design space?

EJL

[Traveler Voltin]

This would be better handled in the other thread, but here goes:



Duh, it's a class concept.



Source? Everything I've seen has led me to the understanding I depicted in the outline:





As I showed above, Demon Hunters and Warlocks start from a different place, and travel in widely divergent directions. I covered my vision of DH lore in the next post I made in that thread.

I believe that they are as alike in being "demon" classes as druids and hunters are as "beast" classes:
Hunters have pet bears, druids turn into bears.
Warlocks have pet demons, DHs kill and eat demons.





Anytime? No, you're not understanding it right. It says "Upon ending combat..." If you read further in the thread, I explained that I think a bad DH will get himself killed, a good one won't, and a great one will know when to push is. Plus, killing scrubs after an LFR boss kill could be quite cathartic.




No imagination whatsoever.

I haven't spent much time as destro over the last four expansions, but I don't really recall it at any point have channeled attacks, or melee attacks. I have spent a lot of time playing Dark Apotheosis, as well as all the real tanking specs, and I basically designed my Bulwark spec with the memory of Frost DK tanking (RIP), updated to the current active mitigation style. The Spellbreaker spec was my favorite idea, but I can see that it's the hardest to grasp. It's meant to be a spec with passive and active damage absorbing and reflecting abilities. Pretty lousy as a DPS spec, could be tons of fun for PvP or tanking.




Yeeeaaaaah...That first talent row isn't my favorite. I admit, it's kinda a mishmash of other classes' talents.

Rows 4 and 6, however, are exciting and very definitive for my DH vision.




You get out what you go into it with. You went in closed minded, so that's all you could see. Others, more curious about the potential Demon Hunters hold (and less married to their own visions of what should happen with the game) might embrace the idea. I certainly had several of those replies when I made the thread (before the mods inexplicably moved it to the WoD forum).

If you want more specifics on my idea, asks over there. For my thoughts overall on how a DH and warlock differ, and why there is room for both in WoW, ask here. Specific questions can get specific answers.

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I'm sure that there were no plans for a monk class five or six years ago. Blizzard has done lots of things they probably didn't initially plan on, let alone things that have gone against earlier ideas: PvE=>PvP realm transfer, faction swap, cross realm mail, etc.

This tweet did not say there will never be a demon hunter. It says they have no plans for it. So we are left to muse on how far ahead they are currently planning. IIRC, I've read they already have the next two expansions past WoD on the drawing board. Assuming Zarhym was fully honest about all current planning, and Blizzard already has such key points like class additions set in stone, we can infer that there won't be a demon hunter class in WoW 6.x, 7.x, or 8.x. So...

DEMON HUNTERS IN 2020!!!!!!!!


And that, kids, is how you infer.

i am pretty sure they said awhile back that demon hunters are on the list of things they wish to add to WoW. so technically there are plans but they are doing anything with it yet. i dont expect it until a legion expansion anyway.

[Felarion]

I read couple of pages and honestly i don't see any similarities in warlock and deamon hunter mechanics if we consider Teriz class idea as something that dh could be in wow. It's just completly different class.

[Talen]

I read couple of pages and honestly i don't see any similarities in warlock and deamon hunter mechanics if we consider Teriz class idea as something that dh could be in wow. It's just completly different class.

Noone is arguing that the gameplay and class mechancis can be different.

But when you look at the Challenge armor - the Betrayer Set - can you say you don't see any resemblence to a certain well known Demon Hunter?
When Warlocks use meta, is there not a similarity there?
When you look at the ability list for DH NPCs and see them using Curses, and Shadowflame and Shadowbolt and others - would you consider that a similarity?
When you look at the lore and find out out that both DHs and Warlocks gain their power by making pacts with demons...would that not be something worth taking into account?
When you look at the overlap and similarity in abilities, theme, lore, look, concept and so on...is all that worth nothing?

Is gameplay the one and only aspect of the design space that is actually worth anything? Maybe it is, because its the one aspect the pro-DH as a standalone class keep bringing up.

"Hey - we can give it unique gameplay so of course it can be different!!!"

Unfortunately, the problem lies everywhere else in the class design space.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

And at the end of the day, that simply ignores existign DH lore wghich DOES state you make a pact. Even if we again give you the benefit of the doubt, the problem here is that even in your idea, the DH is getting a Cursed Soul because - just like Warlocks - he is making a deal with Demons.

The following statement is my example, context is important.

No, my concept doesn't involve a pact with the Legion, and it would be explained by the quests. Making pacts with demons lends an advantage to the demons, it gives them power over the individual. The first generation Demon Hunters knew this too late, having made the pact with demons themselves. Yet they have found new methods to extract demonic essence and contain it, using soul-binding. This new method would give the user full control of Demonic Essence with less risk of corruption. The price for this power is that their souls would be forever cursed, and the power may overwhelm their physical bodies if they do not keep it under control. They are unable to perform this on themselves, as the pact has 'sold their soul' to Demons.

The player would be a part of a new generation of Demon Hunters. They are not Night Elves shunned from society, they have not made pacts with Demons to gain their power. These are not the Demon Hunters from Warcraft 3, these are a new generation designed specifically for WoW.

These are individuals who sought a greater power to fight their enemies. These are people who would WANT to become Death Knights if that option were still available, but the Lich King no longer exists (to common knowledge). The Dark Embrace, first generation of Demon Hunters, has watched the world and took notice of these individuals. They are taken in, taught and trained in a distant world how to focus and redirect Fel energy, letting it flow through their bodies like a conduit. They train their minds to resist sinful temptations, and to control their emotions. They train their bodies to withstand torturous punishment, as well as deal it back to their foes.

Upon completion of this training, they are put to the test, challenging their Mind, Body and Soul against three Demon Lords, the Nathrezim, the Annhilan and the Eredar. They hunt these three and draw out their essence, containing each in a fel shard. This is a temporary container, and if even though the Demon Lord has been defeated it may escape and be raised once more. A ritual must be performed to bind the essence of the three into the soul of the player, permanently killing each Demon Lord. This is your final trial to become a true Demon Hunter. As a part of this final performance, your master dies. The members of the Dark Embrace have come out of hiding to pass on what they have learned because they were at risk of corruption. The Demon Lords you killed were the very ones they made their Pacts with, and the binding ritual leads to the death of your master. With this, your master is freed from the curse, and you are the one to bear his burden.

That is why your idea fails. Both DHs and Warlocks are making deals with demons, both end up with Cursed or Damned souls, but because your DH uses his demonic power differently, that slight difference is worth a fully fledged class slot - to you. Even were we to accept your explanation, slight differences aren't enough to overcome the design space issue.

No one identifies Demon Hunters solely by their pacts with demons. For you to even suggest a 4th spec proves this, since Warlocks do not make permanent pacts with demons as you would be suggesting. So really, you're being a hypocrite for saying Demon Hunters must make pacts for their power, even though you know Warlocks do not use the same pacts to gain their power. Illidan is the prime example of what type of bargains are made with the Legion, and it's very clear that they are permanent. All of the Warlock's pacts with demons are temporary, and none are bound into eternal servitude.

The truth though is that under your Cursed Soul example, an idea already taken by the Death Knight and Warlock classes, your DH still ends up making a Pact with Demons for Demonic Power. It still keeps a massive overlap in design space with Warlocks.

The Cursed Soul concept is very clear. I've outlined it so that it can be unmistakeable from Death Knights and Warlocks. I can't change the fact you're being biased and seeing everything I say with rose tinted glasses. It doesn't change the fact that this concept is thematically different from Death Knights and Warlocks, you're simply drawing connections where there are none. Neither Death Knights nor Warlocks draw power from their own souls.

Did I already mention that massive overlap in design space in all areas save gameplay was what was holding back the standalone DH class concept? Yes, I did. And you have shown nothing here except that its impossible to leave that design space without breaking what is already known about DHs.

Overlap happens everywhere. Death Knights wearing plate and dual wielding overlaps with Warriors, using Frost Magic overlaps with Mages. It's a meaningless argument.

So - maybe Blizzard will bring in DHs. Maybe they will rebuild it from scratch. But if they do, they won't be copying Warlocks. They'd be giving the class its own unique deisgn space, one that isn't already used in game. The existing Demon Hunters will either be retconned or simply written out as "old school" anachronisms.

There is no way Blizzard could bring in ANY class without retcon. Paladins never used shields in Warcraft 3, yet Shields are a defining part of the class. Shamans didn't wear mail, they wore animal hides. Druids were EXCLUSIVE to Night Elf Males, which has completely changed to open up to multiple races as well as the opposite gender. Even Death Knights were given a new concept and are not all the Humanity-serving ex-Paladins of Warcraft 3. They are Tauren and Gnomes and Worgen and Night Elves. They are a new generation of Death Knights created after the events of Warcraft 3.

You need to step back into reality and understand what design is really about, not just criticizing loose elements that don't matter to the core concept of a class. I'm afraid you've been attacking the strawman for so long you believe it's a real thing.

[Traveler Voltin]

demon hunters dont make pacts with demons to get their powers(unlike warlocks). the take an imprisoned demon and sacrifice to take its power. do i need to post the ritual?

[Jtree]

Wall o' text inc.

Blizzards WC3 website. DHs make pacts with Demons for power. So do Warlocks. DH wield Demonic energies and abilities. So do Warlocks.

Thank you for offering a source, few are willing to do that. I've looked that up though, and I think you've got a fundamental misunderstanding of what it says:

Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater Night Elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness.

There's nothing in there about making a pack with demons. It doesn't say they don't, but in this context, I read "They made a pact" as "an agreement among a group of demon hunters".

Reading the Wowpedia article, the most detailed description appears to come from the (non-canon) RPG. In it, DHs gain their power by capturing and sacrificing a demon to bind part of its essence within themselves. This energizes them to fight, and is wildly different from Warlocks, who summon indentured demons to fight on their behalf.

Druids and hunters have different design spaces. They have different class concepts, roles, lore, abilities, themes, looks and so on. There is overlap there because of the wilderness and beast and nature aspects but, overall, not a huge amount.

Warlocks and DHs share a look, a theme. They share abilities and skills. They share the same source of power and the same class theme.

Druids and hunters overlap in only the broadest of strokes. Paladins and priests have an even closer synergy, as they are always part of the same religious order for their race. Likewise, Demon Hunters and Warlocks can be painted with a broad "demon" brush, but I do fully maintain the concept, lore, and theme of each class is widely divergent. (Roles, abilities, and looks are TBD).

The major area of difference is gameplay....DHs are melee, and Warlocks are casters.

If you can provide any other difference of note, you would be the first to do so.

Let's jump ahead to your next post and answer a few of your questions:

But when you look at the Challenge armor - the Betrayer Set - can you say you don't see any resemblence to a certain well known Demon Hunter?
When Warlocks use meta, is there not a similarity there?

Warlocks have been studying Illidan. This has been laid out in lore. Are you familiar with the Council of the Black Harvest? They sent two of their members to Outland to study Illidan's power. Presumably, these were the demo locks, and they learned DA along the way. The Council also set two members to Sulfuron Keep, and two more to hunt down surviving Twilight Cultists. These pairs were Destro and Affliction, it seems.

The first big draw I get from this is that Warlocks aren't just about demonic power, but they tap all the destructive and cruel sources they can find. Secondly, Blizzard can easily write new warlock lore for one of these other pairs/specs/powers, giving warlocks fresh story telling that organically turns them away from crowding out Demon Hunters' more singular focus.

When you look at the ability list for DH NPCs and see them using Curses, and Shadowflame and Shadowbolt and others - would you consider that a similarity?

If you went back to Vanilla Naxx 40, you'd find that Death Knight NPCs had a mix of warlock and warrior abilities. When the real DK class was designed, all of those interim designs were dropped. I'm certain that a real Demon Hunter class will get the same development. If anything, look for how to develop the ability lists of Illidan and Leotheras into a playable class.

When you look at the lore and find out out that both DHs and Warlocks gain their power by making pacts with demons...would that not be something worth taking into account?

As I said above, I believe you've misread that detail on DH's source of fel power. Let me lay out what I believe the difference is:

Warlocks make deals with demons for their own ends. They are after personal power, and are using easy and dangerous methods to get it. They're not trusted, but they can blend in with general society and live quite a comfortable life, protected by their dark ways (see the old lock class quest where you were tasked with poisoning a Stormwind noble who threatened to expose their secret coven). They are machavellian at best, if not outright sociopaths to the last man, orc, and gnome.

Demon Hunters steal demons' power. They are guerilla fighters, using their enemies' weapons against them. The physical mutilation they endure makes their nature obvious, and they are true outcasts. This if part of their pact: they have sacrificed their place in society to protect the world from great danger. They are true martyrs.

When you look at the overlap and similarity in abilities, theme, lore, look, concept and so on...is all that worth nothing?

Plenty of avenues to differentiate the two classes.

Concept, theme, lore: A hero class will get a new and unique story. Paladins had strong lore around undead since WC3, yet that didn't stop Blizzard from adding Death Knights. Both classes were richly served in Wrath. Likewise, a Legion-themed expansion that introduces a DH class would obviously have to find ways to integrate both. Perhaps there can be an Aldor/Scryer faction split, with a DH faction focused on destruction of the Legion threat, and a Lock faction looking to subvert and control it.

Look: TBD, but I do image DH sets will be slim and scant. Look for chestpieces that cover very little.

Abilities: For a new class to be added, Blizz will have to develop over 100 new abilities, talents, effects, proficiencies, and glyphs. The WC3 unit had four abilities, only one of which, Metamorphosis, is iconic and necessary.

Mechanically, warlock's Meta in WoW has gone through two significantly different iterations (evil Avenging Wrath, then bastardized Eclipse). A DH class does not have to be beholden to either of those designs. They can also change up the visuals, with a different model or color, and can go further by altering the function and appearance on a per-spec basis.

As for those other WC3 DH abilities: evasion and manaburn don't have a place in modern WoW, and Immolation is merely an AoE effect. Warlocks can keep the name, DHs could get their own effect and no one would miss it.

So the end question is - with only a limited space for new class options, and with the existing overlap in place, why would Blizzrad choose to use the DH instead of something with an open design space?

As I've laid out, I disagree that there is a significant overlap in design space. But to the question: Why Demon Hunters?

The fact is, there is no argument we players can make that says Blizzard needs to do anything. We can't say one class notion we have is better, the must-do, game will fail without this. They can invent another new class entirely. The WoW monk was built almost entirely from nothing, only a small WC3 unit to inspire one of its specs.

Or Blizz can leave it at eleven classes, and call it the prime design.

Or, they can build up the most iconic concept they've yet to tap. With WoD being designed specifically to revive old lore and characters, it's not unreasonable to think they'd reach back again to bring another important element of the game to the fore. I do believe that adding a DH class would make former WoW players take notice, and would be an effective way to tie a related expansion to what has gone before.

[Talen]

demon hunters dont make pacts with demons to get their powers(unlike warlocks). the take an imprisoned demon and sacrifice to take its power. do i need to post the ritual?

No...a CANON source would be enough. Lore has their DH making pacts. It also has Warlocks sacrificing their minions and taking their power.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

Lore also says they are all Night Elves shunned by society.

Would you also use that as a case against the existence of the class? And if it deviated from that piece of lore, that it would no longer be a Demon Hunter?

[Yig]

There really is no canon on demon hunters beyond WOW quests and the blurb in the Warcraft 3 manual as the RPG is now canon in flux.
They are free to go anywhere they want with it. There's a conflict of where the hell they came from in the first place if Illidan was imprisoned directly after he created the well on Hyjal's peak. Knaak did not write his licensed fan fiction with their existence in mind at all. Some of you may want to seize upon that for your next straw man. Illidan's origins don't make sense with demon hunter hero units existing, so it's going to have to be explained somehow. The idea some group of night elves admired what he did so much they created this elaborate ritualized religion around him in an effort to fight demons better is just a tad bit silly sounding to me at least.

And while demon hunters were shunned by society according to WC3, too many make the leap to that being an implication they were outlawed and banned and openly hunted or punished for what they did. They arguably would not have been allowed as units in WC3 for every single night elven squad if that were so.

They are more like ex special force mercenary contractors everyone thinks are just government sanctioned psychopaths, nobody wants to hang out at their house or come to dinner, but they aren't treated like a full fledged demon of the Burning Crusade by other night elves. They're treated like a disgusting necessary evil and resented. Kept at the borders of society and only tolerated when necessary.

And clearly used in times of military conflict, one could infer.

That's a big problem with how wonky their lore and canon is, it's all reliant on a lot of inference.

That's about as much as you can infer from Warcraft 3's anti hero unit, and now the Dark Embrace is seemingly being connected to them, one could infer.

The Illidari Demon Hunter is a villain, unless they go renegade.

[Jtree]

No...a CANON source would be enough. Lore has their DH making pacts. It also has Warlocks sacrificing their minions and taking their power.

EJL

Did you ignore my last post? I know it was a wall of text, but I worked really hard to understand your opinions and offer reasonable counterpoints built on a wide array of facts and analasys.

But to boil it down to one very simple point: there's no lore that says DHs make pacts with demons. (Unless you can link a canon source, which I will be happy to take a look at.)

[Yig]

Did you ignore my last post? I know it was a wall of text, but I worked really hard to understand your opinions and offer reasonable counterpoints built on a wide array of facts and analasys.

But to boil it down to one very simple point: there's no lore that says DHs make pacts with demons. (Unless you can link a canon source, which I will be happy to take a look at.)

Yes, there is no lore on demonic pacts specifically. All we know is they bind a demon's soul or demonic essence to their own elven soul or essence. We don't know if this is via pact, or what. A pact suggests a bargain which seems precluded by their, for all intents and purposes, racial hatred of demons. This seems like something the demon hunter would take by force to me.

But to explore the idea of this class existing in some form on the fringes of society for ten thousand years, we have to infer a lot concerning how they discovered these demonic techniques in the occult and how and why they created these rituals, they had to have been experimenting with demonic magic to understand it. Illidan had no disciples prior to his imprisonment for 10,000 years unless he was allowed access to other prisoners held in the barrows, which I doubt. Or unless he had apprentices while he was a magi of high esteem, but his peculiar blend of martial prowess and magical talent could be explored in a number of ways that would lend itself to this needed origin story.

I'm now going to go into wild and crazy speculations, please humor me if you would (and if you can endure my long winded self indulgence)

Knaak wrote Illidan's origin with loose guidance from Metzen and the lore team, but they forgot all about demon hunters as a night elf military unit and their descriptions in both the WC3 manual and the RPG. There was nothing about any pacts or rituals, no techniques, no traditions, Illidan was psychologically and spiritually raped by The Dark Titan essentially, nothing more. Illidan was just the sum of his own circumstances, he fought in no particular style, he used no particular techniques, he was just a prodigal mage who was given the gift of spectral sight and the fel tattoos which seem to augment his strength and agility as well as his magical prowess.

So we have a problem explaining why other night elf demon hunters would emulate all this elaborate stuff, merely positing effectiveness against killing demons seems a weak explanation considering the ultimate price one pays in the end. It would not only take an almost suicidal martyr with a hatred of demons, they need to have a good reason to dress up like Illidan that's better than simply admiration I think.

These plot holes can be exploited by demon hunter detractors until the cows come home. Let them.
They offer the devs a massive niche to fill with a few retcons and a treasure trove of clever embellishments.

For those of us with interest, it needs to be explored and explained.

They could retcon the entire ancient clandestine warrior cult of demon hunters Warcraft3 details and Cataclysm alludes to completely out of existence, but that's just a shame and I'd rather they not.

They could have Illidan tied into a brand new contemporary order of demon hunters he trains after his resurrection from the dead, but I'd rather not have to do that personally as I feel demon hunters are strong enough without his presence as characters and they could use a more empathetic character than Illidan has been to identify with, like Thassarian and Koltira were to Arthas. We could have Sindweller at this point, Altruis the Sufferer and Thalipedes proposedly.

I'm in the minority there I think, so it's probably best to have Illidan involved for the fans, but I also feel Illidan's story was without well paced suspense and closure and it seems open ended and rife for exploration into the details concerning death and the afterlife for someone damned and cursed in the Warcraft universe by demonic affiliation with the Legion. But Illidan's biggest problem as a player class faction leader is his arrogant demeanor and hostile contemptuous attitude.

Illidan's return from the grave and events proceeding and leading up to it could herald a paradigm shift in his overall demeanor and ethical values. Death is traumatic I imagine. Death and unimaginable suffering could humble even Illidan and inspire him to go from someone you almost pity or loathe or despise to someone you could finally openly root for without being a cynical or jaded bastard.

Should he return from the grave, I see and have mentioned already some examples of how it could be done theoretically. And in a world with ghosts, elemental spirits, demons, gods, haunted places, and magic, I think it's foolish and pretentious to claim bringing Illidan back from the dead is cheapening death in the story or an example of puerile fan service. He's not just some guy who people think is cool so we want him back, his very nature as a character was intimately tied into Warcraft's supernatural elements surrounding death and the soul itself. This is why I claim it's pretentious when someone falls back on accusations over the "rule of cool" as a reason that bringing Illidan back from the dead makes you tackier than a guy with a mullet in a member's only jacket and cheapens the lore like one of the cheaper Tijuana prostitutes you'll find.

I imagine Illidan's resurrection would involve for one possible and completely plausible example a blood mage ritual similar to Thalipedes' resurrection from the grave, but that requires casters with a motive to do so.

I prefer a different scenario, which the greenfire questline offers foreshadowing aplenty for.

Illidan had no shortage of mortal enemies and in his intense paranoia it could be inferred he sought means to find a loophole around his demise should one of those enemies actually succeed, loopholes being Illidan's speciality, we could infer that he created a backup or failsafe for himself via magical means as a safeguard against the worst case scenario he was rightly terrified of with the enemies he had gathered in his eventful life story.

I'd imagine the Reliquary of Souls would be a perfect plot device for such a story element, along with his remaining vial of the Well of Eternity. The Reliquary of Souls always seemed to be to me an inner reflection of Illidan's psychology, the boss concept being based on an old arcade game called Sinistar or not, just look at it.


One face appears to look like an enraged Illidan, one face vaguely resembles Illidan one could infer filled with sorrow and regret over his defeats and failures in life and his confusion and insanity, another face is female, symbolizing his obsession with Tyrande eating away at him for ten thousand years.

The Reliquary could have been an ancient Draenei artefact Illidan imbued himself into somehow in case his underlings assassinated him, or in case his worst fears became true, and the Legion caught up to him for the bargains he made with Kil'jaeden. Or in case Maiev made good on her threats. Or Akama betrayed him. Or the Alliance and Horde overcame his fortress, etc. etc. He had too many enemies, and the Reliquary of Souls sounds like an artefact kind of specialized with something to do with souls and Naaru magical artefacts.

But should he have been killed, would death have made him vulnerable to Kil'jaeden? And if so, why would he wait to use the spell to come back if he had the means to do so and not return immediately upon dying?

Perhaps it requires corroboration with someone on the mortal plane, activating or working specific spells. Perhaps in death he needs to gather his will over time before losing or regaining his identity and sense of self for eternity? But if KJ did get his claws on Illidan's spiritual essence,...

Oh, the agonies Kil'Jaeden would have inflicted upon Illidan for his failures and deceptions, and then for his own defeat at the Sunwell giving him the need for a scapegoat. Imagine for a moment the instant Maiev killed Illidan, his soul was no longer protected from KJ by the spheres of the world planes as his ghost drifted into the Great Dark Beyond, and KJ plucked it as simply as he did Ner'zhul's soul from his body before inflicting unspeakable agonies upon it and instilling it within the helm of the Lich King.

This could all make Illidan into a much more benign and agreeable personality should he escape the planes of the Legion's existence in the Twisting Nether with his adept knowledge of magic and his clever wit and notorious prodigal genius. He is the king of loopholes, and always has been. This would go a long way to make him a more amicable character with a role in the demon hunter player class experience.

He could have been psychologically and morally broken by KJ and made into a powerful revenant in service to the Legion, his free will all but lost, a weapon and almost nothing more.

Imagine then one day in his bondage and servitude he hears news among the ranks of the demonic legions, news like learning of the impending awakening and return of Sargeras himself. News of such magnitude could spur Illidan into action, awakening him from the slumber of his broken spirit and mental enslavement, inspiring then within him an attempt to warn the people he feels he failed, those who called him Betrayer.

With the fog of his madness cleared from his defeat at Arthas' feet, and this new burning desire to redeem himself in the eyes of his brother and the woman he adored offering motivation, he would need find a way home. But that's what Illidan always does best, manipulate the rules of the game to his benefit, as he has always done. It's his strength as a character, his manipulation and his way of finding solutions to his problems, turning weapons at his throat on their owners. He is always slipping through loopholes and technicalities just when things seem to be at an end.

The cosmos would be abuzz with this news of the Dark Titan's return, and it could be tied into any number of things in the lore.

With Turalyon and Alleria returning from their jaunt in the Nether spurred by the same dire news of Sargeras' return, they could stand witness to verify the things Illidan would be mistrusted in claiming once he found a way back to Azeroth from the Twisting Nether of course. Furion could possibly decide to trust Illidan, but Tyrande is the one who freed him to use against the Legion in the first place, I do not think Furion could dissuade her if he wished to, and if the Legion were an imminent threat, she has already shown she would go to nearly any means necessary to ensure the survival of her people.

Now I know this is all just mental masturbation for me and if you've read it before or are reading it now, I apologize for all the hot air. I've alluded to this scenario before in the past, but it's something I could see happening with Metzen's notorious appreciation for comic book characters. If he was a Spawn fan, there's a lot of material in the Hellspawn mythos of Todd mcfarlane that could be used to inspire demon hunter content. Warlocks are a kind of Wizard Spawn, Demon Hunters are a kind of Ninja Spawn, if you were a Spawn fan you'd possibly get the gist of this equivocation.

Now we have an Illidan willing to train demon hunters for more than his lust for power and self serving agendas.
Now we have a world in need of demon hunters.

We still need to explain the Dark Embrace, or what the hell ever the 10k year old clandestine warrior cult is made up of or even called. IF they still exist beyond the few demon hunters we've seen, if those wandering nomads belong to the order at all.

That's an important part of the icon of the demon hunters other than Illidan, they all seem to be wandering nomads, in the middle of nowhere, looking for demons and those who consort with them to hunt and kill. It's actually quite apt for a player character, in a world like Warcraft's you're going to encounter the gamut of this lore's bestiary while being a demon hunting international nomad.

I love the idea of an imminent threat from the Legion more dire than ever before creating a rift in Kaldorei society and leading to civil war between Maiev and Tyrande. Warden army against Demon Hunter army. All while the clock is ticking dangerously low to the fall out point when the Legion's invasion erupts.

The politics of the Horde and Alliance would be fascinating to explore in such a scenario.

But my wild speculation and tangents aside, we do still need to explain why demon hunters other than Illidan exist, where they came from, and why they began to exist in the first place.

Being a superficial wannabe Illidan in the lore seems to really appeal to people who already want to dismiss demon hunter fans as wannabe Illidans.

I'd personally like to imagine there was an order of specialized Kaldorei battle mages, "glaive masters" who wore vestments that are very visually evocative of Illidan which existed before the fall of Azshara's reign and the Sundering. Illidan would have been one of their finest members as he was such a prodigy. The blindness is something that came later and would not have been a part of their order or it's techniques. They would have been arcane augmented blade dancers, lithe and deadly with both blade and spell.

The knowledge of fel magic and rituals demands that the original demon hunters had to have had dealings and understanding of fel magic. They either associated with warlocks or were warlocks in that sense.

I think a cool way around demon hunters being more than simple Illidan fanboy wannabes would involve working Eldre'thalas into the demon hunter mythology.

Eldre'thalas was powered by siphoning the essence of enslaved demons for centuries by the Shen'dralar under the rule of Prince Tortheldrin. Tortheldrin fights quite a bit like a demon hunter. He could be an example of that prototypical Kaldorei glaive master which I spoke of above. Perhaps these highborne Shen'dralar warlocks had among them an elite martial fighting force that was an historical extension of the one I described above, one which went beyond simple arcane augmented attacks but one which began to dabble with fel power.

To explain how would eventually pattern themselves after Illidan, specifically his making use of his spectral sight, we would go back in time to when Illidan was first imprisoned.

This would have been before Dath'Remar violated Malfurion's law over the use of the arcane, imagine perhaps Malfurion or Tyrande wished to know why their friend/twin and former lover had become what he had become, and how and what he was? Perhaps in those early days after the Sundering they had him studied and examined at some point in the initial weeks of his imprisonment by their priests and magi specialists? So then we have Illidan perhaps studied by some Quel'dorei magi that knew based on their observations of Illidan the basic spells behind his spectral sight and this knowledge was preserved and went on to be held in the libraries of the Shen'dralar.

Now fast forward to we have a society of highborne night elves living in their own city of Eldre'thalas, a society whose very foundation was built upon and powered by the enslaved demon Immol'thar for centuries under the rule of Tortheldrin. Tortheldrin, who fights very similarly to a demon hunter, for the sake of our story we will say this ancient Kaldorei fighting style is what Illidan practiced as well before Sargeras turned him into the marked and cursed being he became.



Perhaps then further in the story a splinter group of highborne Shen'dralar warriors disagreed with the ever deepening demonic foundations Eldre'thalas' society had become dependent upon under the rule of Prince Tortheldrin? Perhaps an incident took place in Eldre'thalas after the War of the Ancients which led to a tragedy there which had enslaved demons break free and commit atrocities upon the common population inhabiting the city, women, children, loved ones. Perhaps Tortheldrin himself committed or played some role in this atrocity, as we know he began sacrificing his own citizens when it became necessary.

This could have inspired a group of specialized Shen'dralar battle mages from Eldre'thalas to really hate demons on top of everything else a night elf would hate a demon for, warriors who have knowledge of demonic magic and demonic behavior and anatomy and demonic mechanics, and these Shen'dralar warriors took it upon themselves to fight in the old ways of the ancient Kaldorei battle mage glaive master order I mentioned Illidan belonging to.

They also held their ancient studies of Illidan recorded in the libraries of Eldre'thalas, and used these accounts to create their own ultimate demon killing warrior.

They would have left Eldre'thalas long ago and would have gone on to have formed the roots of what would become the Dark Embrace, and it would explain how we had night elves with the knowledge of warlock magic necessary to work out and create something like a demon hunter's abilities without Illidan holding their hands and showing them what to do to become what we now call demon hunters sometime among those weeks between his "gift" from Sargeras and his imprisonment after creating the well on the peak of Hyjal. Demon hunters, which was not a word that existed in Richard Knaak's novel, as Illidan was simply Illidan and his look and visual design was all random circumstance.

Making demon hunters look like Illidan in their visual appearance without having them be glorified Illidan fanboys could be accomplished by the establishment in the lore of an ancient order of traditional Kaldorei battle mages who specialized in dual wielding glaives and wearing vestments very similar to Illidan's dress style long before Azshara brought about the collapse of her civilization. Illidan would have been a member of this group of glaive masters, explaining his vestments and his dual blade fighting style mixed with magical augmented specialized tactics which in the days of the ancients would have been arcane in nature. A sort of light reflection, a proto demon hunter, which gave rise to the dark reflection of their now established contemporary existence as a shadow of that fighting school in the incarnation we call demon hunter.



A group of these highborne veterans then go on to become counted among the Shen'dralar in Eldre'thalas, and end up becoming a specialized force in Dire Maul's society who were tasked as keepers and tenders and guards over the demons used there along with Immol'thar.

They would have knowledge of the glaive master style and dress, and knowledge of augmenting their tactics with not just the arcane but with fel. And after the incident I described which have them leaving Eldre'thalas, they would have taken the information in the libraries concerning the studies and observations made of Illidan in his early days of imprisonment, giving them the knowledge of the mechanics behind spectral sight and demonic augmentation.

They would then create their own religious like traditions and rituals over the centuries in a clandestine society of warrior glaive masters dedicated to their hatred of demons, which would have spread slowly across Kalimdor and seeing them reintegrated with the Kaldorei of Hyjal's surrounding regions of Darkshore, Moonglade, Winterspring, Ashenvale, Felwood, and Azshara.

The only problem I have with this little pet story of mine is how long Tortheldrin has been ruling in Eldre'thalas, and how long he's been using Immo'lthar and Shen'Drelar magi.

But I like the idea above all of an ancient order of Kaldorei glaive master magi who used augmented arcane attacks which Illidan trained under and was a member of before the fall of Azshara's kingdom. He just wears the hakama like pants and vestments and fights in the style of that ancient order augmenting his technique with fel and using the gifts Sargeras forced upon him. This way, demon hunters seem like more than glorified Illidan wannabes.