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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspectsftw View Post
    America needs gun control tightened, ALOT. How many school shoutouts happen in the rest of the world?
    They are rare in the US as well.
    People working 2 jobs in the US (at least one part-time) - 7.8 Million (Roughly 4.9% of the workforce)

    People working 2 full-time jobs in the US - 360,000 (0.2% of the workforce)

    Average time worked weekly by the US Workforce - 34.5 hours

  2. #522
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Ft. Hood shooter - Registered Democrat – Muslim

    Columbine shooters - Too young to vote but both families were registered
    Democrats and progressive liberals.

    Virginia Tech shooter - Registered Democrat - Wrote hate mail to President
    Bush and to his staff.

    Colorado Theater shooter - Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama
    campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

    Connecticut School Shooter - Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

    Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.
    I think if you were actually trying to be serious, you wouldn't care what side it was on.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz

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  3. #523
    The Unstoppable Force Ghostpanther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoZ View Post
    What kind of a lunatic are you?

    Geez...why can you not have an opinion on this issue without drawing out every Dirty Harry and some other guy who seems to think he's the Flash...Why can't you discuss this issue rationally...ever?
    I am smart enough to not be caught at home in bed without a gun near by to defend myself if needed. You only get upset when someone has a different opinion than you do. But yeah, I love those Dirty Harry movies. Esp the part where he blows the pervert away with his .44 mag. Classic.
    I happen to think there are some people out there who will take from you anything you have, inc your life in a heartbeat and never feel guilty about it. And sometimes the best way to deal with those is to take them out.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Ft. Hood shooter - Registered Democrat – Muslim

    Columbine shooters - Too young to vote but both families were registered
    Democrats and progressive liberals.

    Virginia Tech shooter - Registered Democrat - Wrote hate mail to President
    Bush and to his staff.

    Colorado Theater shooter - Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama
    campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

    Connecticut School Shooter - Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

    Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.
    Let's assume these are true, which is generous on its own, you still haven't proven liberals commit more shootings.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Let's assume these are true, which is generous on its own, you still haven't proven liberals commit more shootings.
    Were there any other school shootings?.

    And dont even bring up regular shootings not at schools because the numbers are overwhelming due to gangs and drugs.

  6. #526
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Were there any other school shootings?.

    And dont even bring up regular shootings not at schools because the numbers are overwhelming due to gangs and drugs.
    So what? You're willing to point out they're liberal for some reason.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz

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  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Were there any other school shootings?.

    And dont even bring up regular shootings not at schools because the numbers are overwhelming due to gangs and drugs.
    IDK dude, it was your claim.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Let's assume these are true, which is generous on its own, you still haven't proven liberals commit more shootings.
    If we wanted to make statical generalizations we could say that more violent crimes are committed by black males and that they statistically would self-identify as a Democrat.

    Clarify- Data used was only for murder crimes from FBI site. Will update with other violent crimes if necessary.

    Edit- Data is from 2011. Will try to find more current numbers.

    Also seems that since 1990 gun related shooting and homicide as a whole are on a downward trend. 2010 is the latest data available at Pew.
    Last edited by Kapadons; 2014-01-03 at 03:10 AM.
    People working 2 jobs in the US (at least one part-time) - 7.8 Million (Roughly 4.9% of the workforce)

    People working 2 full-time jobs in the US - 360,000 (0.2% of the workforce)

    Average time worked weekly by the US Workforce - 34.5 hours

  9. #529
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Hooked's claims are based off a chain email that got sent around. Not only was this chain email horribly partisan biased, it wasn't even fact checked, just a bunch of made up crap.

    1. Nidal Hasan (the Ft. Hood shooter) lived in either Virginia (his state of residence prior to being sent to Ft. Hood) or Texas, neither of which has partisan registration. Therefore the claim that he was a "registered Democrat" is false. I do not know if he voted or how he voted, but I do know that unless he was registered in a state in which he did not reside, that the claim that he is a registered Democrat is FALSE.

    2. Since Virginia does not have partisan registration there is also no way to tell whether Seung-Hui Cho was a Democrat, but again because there is no partisan registration in the state we can say that the claim that he is a registered Democrat is FALSE. (Update: A more obvious point is that Cho was a resident alien, not a US citizen, so he was not eligible to vote in the US)

    3. The allegation that James Holmes was registered Democrat was based on a Breitbart blogger Joel B. Pollack, who found voter registration records for a DIFFERENT James Holmes who was about the same age. Alex Jones’ Infowars and other right-wing websites then dutifully repeated the lie without verifying it. It was later determined that the Colorado Theater Shooter James Holmes was NOT registered to vote, as evidenced by this retraction: {Newly-released information on the suspect’s birthdate (which, as indicated in our initial report, was a slight mismatch), combined with new details Breitbart News has obtained about the suspect’s likely addresses, together suggest that the suspect may, in fact, not have been registered to vote.}. However, most of right-wing media continued to promote the lie without printing Breitbart sites retraction. The claim that James Holmes was a registered Democrat is FALSE.

    4. The claim that Adama Lanza is a registered Democrat has been suggested based not on any evidence that he was registered as one, but on the rather dubious claim that because Connecticut has almost 2 to 1 Democratic registration over Republicans, he was probably a Democrat. (Claim: "Adam Lanza, NewtownConn murderer. Registered Democrats outnumber Republicans by about a 2-1 ratio in Connecticut. The odds are therefore that the Lanza family are (sic) Democrats.") This of course is a bogus argument to begin with, but even if we were to make the claim that a mass shooter’s political affiliation must be the same as the majority of the people in his area, we can debunk this foolish idea by taking this shoddy analysis down to the local level. Yes, Connecticut voted for Barack Obama, BUT the city of Newtown voted for Mitt Romney. If we look at the results we find that Mitt Romney defeated Barack Obama in Newtown by 7451-6784 votes or 51.7 percent to 47 percent. Republican Senate candidate and Tea Party favorite Linda McMahon carried the city over Democrat Chris Murphy by an even larger margin. Add in the other information we have that Lanza’s mother was a “doomsday prepper” and a home schooler in a Republican-leaning city and we can pretty well dispense with the erroneous assumption that Lanza must have been a Democrat (UPDATE: According to at least one media source, Nancy Lanza was a registered Republican. The source does not provide a link, but the author of this article is seeking further confirmation). We can therefore claim that with no evidence to support the claim, the assertion that Lanza was a Democrat is not demonstrated and that in the absence of any evidence it is likely FALSE.

    5. Klebold and Harris of course were not old enough to vote and they had no apparent political affiliation. Allegations that they came from families of Democrats or liberal progressives appear to have no sources to substantiate those claims. What little ideology the boys demonstrated owed mostly to an admiration for Timothy McVeigh not Ted Kennedy. Harris’ father was a retired Air Force pilot and Eric Harris wanted to join the Marine Corps. The boys lived in Littleton, Colorado a relatively conservative and affluent suburb of Denver. The claim that their parents were Democrats is UNSUBSTANTIATED. Any suggestion that the two boys were Democrats is demonstrably FALSE.




    On July 18, 1984 James Oliver Huberty, who told his wife he hated “children, Mexicans and the United States” opened fire inside the McDonald’s Restaurant in San Ysidro, CA using a Browning P-35 Hi-Power 9mm pistol, Winchester 1200 pump-action 12-gauge shotgun, and an Israeli Military Industries 9mm Carbine (Uzi) – all legally acquired. He killed 21 and injured 19 before he was shot dead by police.

    On Aug. 10, 1999 White supremacist Buford O. Furrow, Jr., fired 70 rounds with an Uzi-type submachine-gun inside the lobby of the Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, CA wounding three children, a teenage counselor and an office worker. He then carjacked a woman’s Toyota at gunpoint, dumped it behind a motel and murdered US Postal Worker Joseph Santos with a Glock 9mm handgun.

    On July 27, 2008 Former U.S. Army private, Jim David Atkinsson, who hated Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals, using a Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun, murdered two people and injured seven others inside the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN.

    The day after Obama’s inauguration, white supremacist Keith Luke went on a killing spree in Brockton, Massachusetts. His goal was to kill as many Jews, blacks and Hispanics as possible. When questioned by investigators, the deranged gunman who had stockpiled hundreds of rounds of ammunition, proclaimed that he was fighting the extinction of the white race.

    A little over a month later, Donnie Baker, a former Republican campaign volunteer shot seven Chilean immigrants in Florida. Those who knew him said he was obsessed with the fear that illegal immigrants were taking over the country.

    In April of 2009, Richard Popalowski, a white supremacist in Pittsburgh, shot and killed three police officers following a domestic disturbance call. He apparently thought that Obama was part of a government conspiracy to seize all guns, and he feared the government would take his guns away.

    Later the same month, a Fort Walton Beach Florida man who thought the Obama administration was conspiring against him, shot and murdered two sheriff’s deputies.

    On May 31, 2009 Dr. George Tiller was murdered in his own church by a right-wing “pro- life” gun man who decided to express his belief in the sanctity of human life by executing a medical doctor.

    Eleven days later a right-wing white supremacist and Holocaust denier walked into the National Holocaust Museum and killed an African-American security guard. Two weeks later, three Neo-Nazis were arrested for bombing a diversity office in Scottsdale, Arizona.

    On April 20, 2010 a member of the Sovereign Citizen movement was arrested after a failed attempt to take over a Tennessee county courthouse.

    Exactly one month later, in West Memphis Arkansas, Sovereign citizens Jerry and Joe Kane murdered two police officers before they themselves were shot and killed in the ensuing shoot out with police.

    On July 18, 2010 Byron Williams, an angry unemployed man, was arrested by police after they discovered a car full of weapons and ammunition that he had planned to use to kill progressives. He was on his way to the non-profit Tides Foundation Center, a favorite target of vitriol from Glenn Beck’s radio show.

    On Jan. 8, 2011 22-year old Jarold Lee Laughner killed six people, including a judge and a nine-year old child, and wounded 13 others, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), using a 9mm Glock 19 pistol during a public meeting in a supermarket parking lot near Tuscon, AZ.

    On Aug. 5, 2012 Wade Michael Page, a 40-year old white supremacist and U.S. Army veteran murdered six people and wounded four others inside a Sikh Temple in Oak Creek, WI with a Springfield XD(M) semi-automatic pistol.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Ft. Hood shooter - Registered Democrat – Muslim

    Columbine shooters - Too young to vote but both families were registered
    Democrats and progressive liberals.

    Virginia Tech shooter - Registered Democrat - Wrote hate mail to President
    Bush and to his staff.

    Colorado Theater shooter - Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama
    campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

    Connecticut School Shooter - Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

    Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.
    How many of them were in favour of gun control?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  11. #531
    I am Murloc! GreatOak's Avatar
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    I don't really think someone's political beliefs matter that much when they're an insane psychopath bent on killing lots of people. Crazy trumps anything else they may believe in, and attempting to score cheap partisan points on deranged outliers is pretty crazy itself. Other than that, having a couple officers in every school isn't a bad idea. It's not an absolute fix but nothing is. This solution doesn't harm anyone other than potential killers. To me an argument against shifting a few officers into schools is also an argument against officers anywhere children may be, and I don't agree with it.

    I'm not going to jump into the circlejerking gun control debate here as nobody reads facts (that are in proper context), posts backed by fair evidence, or well-established studies. Both sides just spew talking points and plug their ears. I'm pro-gun, pro-second amendment, and averse to most forms of gun control but these threads give me migraines.

    That's just my two cents.
    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

  12. #532
    Stood in the Fire Obtuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    ...I'm pro-gun, pro-second amendment, and averse to most forms of gun control but these threads give me migraines.
    That's just my two cents.
    And yet you have a signature quote from Milton where he implicitly states that might is only half the battle?

    Edit: I guess my point is if you believe what Milton says (and it's a great quote) I would think an intellectual discussion on the other half of the battle would be worth it.
    Last edited by Obtuse; 2014-01-03 at 03:30 AM.
    Obtuse and Obedient of Stormrage US

  13. #533
    I am Murloc! GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    And yet you have a signature quote from Milton where he implicitly states that might is only half the battle?
    Yeah? You have to be pro-violence to be pro-gun now? I'm a firm believer of non-aggression.
    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Kapadons View Post
    They are rare in the US as well.
    Relative to the total population yes. Relative to other countries, I don't think so.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Ft. Hood shooter - Registered Democrat – Muslim

    Columbine shooters - Too young to vote but both families were registered
    Democrats and progressive liberals.

    Virginia Tech shooter - Registered Democrat - Wrote hate mail to President
    Bush and to his staff.

    Colorado Theater shooter - Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama
    campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

    Connecticut School Shooter - Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

    Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.
    P.S.

    Based on the assertions of Roger Hedgecock a right-wing radio show host, the meme that the five worst recent mass shootings were committed by registered Democrats is making its way through e-mail chains and social media. Hedgecock asserts, without providing any evidence or sources, that the Ft. Hood shooter, the Virginia Tech shooter, the Aurora Theater shooter and Adam Lanza of Sandy Hook infamy were all “registered Democrats”. He acknowledges that Klebold and Harris (the Columbine Colorado shooters) were too young to be registered voters but asserts, again without providing any evidence, that Harris and Klebold’s parents were progressives or liberal Democrats. All of these charges are utterly baseless and perhaps do not even deserve a response. However, given the effectiveness of right-wing lies in saturating social media and duping the incurious (a far too numerous segment of the population), some more detailed debunking is in order.

    To the best of my ability, I have attempted to research these claims with as much rigor as possible. If there is any evidence for or against my debunking, I welcome that evidence in the spirit of free inquiry. Let me also state that given that neither major political party condones mass shooter violence in any way, shape or form, and that all these acts are individual acts of violence that are not sanctioned by either elected Democrats or Republicans (at least not mainstream leaders in either party), the very notion that they are acting on behalf of a political party is itself problematic. This is not to say that mass shootings are apolitical acts, but rather it is to say that as political acts they may express an ideology (racism, misogyny, entitlement, psychosis, etc) but they do not in general express alignment with a political party or if they do it is not an association that the Democrats or Republicans would accept as legitimate (neither party wants to claim James Holmes or Adam Lanza as a member in good standing, no matter what Holmes or Lanza feels about them). In any case, we can categorically REJECT the notion that any of the shooters in question has been shown to be a registered Democrat on a case by case basis.

    1. Nidal Hasan (the Ft. Hood shooter) lived in either Virginia (his state of residence prior to being sent to Ft. Hood) or Texas, neither of which has partisan registration. Therefore the claim that he was a "registered Democrat" is false. I do not know if he voted or how he voted, but I do know that unless he was registered in a state in which he did not reside, that the claim that he is a registered Democrat is FALSE.

    2. Since Virginia does not have partisan registration there is also no way to tell whether Seung-Hui Cho was a Democrat, but again because there is no partisan registration in the state we can say that the claim that he is a registered Democrat is FALSE. (Update: A more obvious point is that Cho was a resident alien, not a US citizen, so he was not eligible to vote in the US)

    3. The allegation that James Holmes was registered Democrat was based on a Breitbart blogger Joel B. Pollack, who found voter registration records for a DIFFERENT James Holmes who was about the same age. Alex Jones’ Infowars and other right-wing websites then dutifully repeated the lie without verifying it. It was later determined that the Colorado Theater Shooter James Holmes was NOT registered to vote, as evidenced by this retraction: {Newly-released information on the suspect’s birthdate (which, as indicated in our initial report, was a slight mismatch), combined with new details Breitbart News has obtained about the suspect’s likely addresses, together suggest that the suspect may, in fact, not have been registered to vote.}. However, most of right-wing media continued to promote the lie without printing Breitbart sites retraction. The claim that James Holmes was a registered Democrat is FALSE.

    4. The claim that Adama Lanza is a registered Democrat has been suggested based not on any evidence that he was registered as one, but on the rather dubious claim that because Connecticut has almost 2 to 1 Democratic registration over Republicans, he was probably a Democrat. (Claim: "Adam Lanza, NewtownConn murderer. Registered Democrats outnumber Republicans by about a 2-1 ratio in Connecticut. The odds are therefore that the Lanza family are (sic) Democrats.") This of course is a bogus argument to begin with, but even if we were to make the claim that a mass shooter’s political affiliation must be the same as the majority of the people in his area, we can debunk this foolish idea by taking this shoddy analysis down to the local level. Yes, Connecticut voted for Barack Obama, BUT the city of Newtown voted for Mitt Romney. If we look at the results we find that Mitt Romney defeated Barack Obama in Newtown by 7451-6784 votes or 51.7 percent to 47 percent. Republican Senate candidate and Tea Party favorite Linda McMahon carried the city over Democrat Chris Murphy by an even larger margin. Add in the other information we have that Lanza’s mother was a “doomsday prepper” and a home schooler in a Republican-leaning city and we can pretty well dispense with the erroneous assumption that Lanza must have been a Democrat (UPDATE: According to at least one media source, Nancy Lanza was a registered Republican. The source does not provide a link, but the author of this article is seeking further confirmation). We can therefore claim that with no evidence to support the claim, the assertion that Lanza was a Democrat is not demonstrated and that in the absence of any evidence it is likely FALSE.

    5. Klebold and Harris of course were not old enough to vote and they had no apparent political affiliation. Allegations that they came from families of Democrats or liberal progressives appear to have no sources to substantiate those claims. What little ideology the boys demonstrated owed mostly to an admiration for Timothy McVeigh not Ted Kennedy. Harris’ father was a retired Air Force pilot and Eric Harris wanted to join the Marine Corps. The boys lived in Littleton, Colorado a relatively conservative and affluent suburb of Denver. The claim that their parents were Democrats is UNSUBSTANTIATED. Any suggestion that the two boys were Democrats is demonstrably FALSE.

    Interestingly, Hedgecock and those on the far right have conveniently overlooked a number of cases where ideology is clearly right-wing. The acts below are instances of right-wing violence that are unequivocally committed by people who are openly hostile to liberalism. While this does not mean these killers are Republicans, it is quite clear that they are RIGHT-WINGERS and that they have far more in common with Mr. Hedgecock, Alex Jones and the other gun-toting conspiracy nuts on the right than with any evils associated with the Democratic Party or liberalism. In addition, to the list below is the obvious case of Timothy McVeigh, who I have not included because his crime was not committed with firearms. It was however, committed by a right-winger and the carnage was on a massive scale.

    For example, on July 18, 1984 James Oliver Huberty, who told his wife he hated “children, Mexicans and the United States” opened fire inside the McDonald’s Restaurant in San Ysidro, CA using a Browning P-35 Hi-Power 9mm pistol, Winchester 1200 pump-action 12-gauge shotgun, and an Israeli Military Industries 9mm Carbine (Uzi) – all legally acquired. He killed 21 and injured 19 before he was shot dead by police.

    On Aug. 10, 1999 White supremacist Buford O. Furrow, Jr., fired 70 rounds with an Uzi-type submachine-gun inside the lobby of the Jewish Community Center in Granada Hills, CA wounding three children, a teenage counselor and an office worker. He then carjacked a woman’s Toyota at gunpoint, dumped it behind a motel and murdered US Postal Worker Joseph Santos with a Glock 9mm handgun.

    On July 27, 2008 Former U.S. Army private, Jim David Atkinsson, who hated Democrats, liberals, African Americans and homosexuals, using a Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun, murdered two people and injured seven others inside the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, TN.

    The day after Obama’s inauguration, white supremacist Keith Luke went on a killing spree in Brockton, Massachusetts. His goal was to kill as many Jews, blacks and Hispanics as possible. When questioned by investigators, the deranged gunman who had stockpiled hundreds of rounds of ammunition, proclaimed that he was fighting the extinction of the white race.

    A little over a month later, Donnie Baker, a former Republican campaign volunteer shot seven Chilean immigrants in Florida. Those who knew him said he was obsessed with the fear that illegal immigrants were taking over the country.

    In April of 2009, Richard Popalowski, a white supremacist in Pittsburgh, shot and killed three police officers following a domestic disturbance call. He apparently thought that Obama was part of a government conspiracy to seize all guns, and he feared the government would take his guns away.

    Later the same month, a Fort Walton Beach Florida man who thought the Obama administration was conspiring against him, shot and murdered two sheriff’s deputies.

    On May 31, 2009 Dr. George Tiller was murdered in his own church by a right-wing “pro- life” gun man who decided to express his belief in the sanctity of human life by executing a medical doctor.

    Eleven days later a right-wing white supremacist and Holocaust denier walked into the National Holocaust Museum and killed an African-American security guard. Two weeks later, three Neo-Nazis were arrested for bombing a diversity office in Scottsdale, Arizona.

    On April 20, 2010 a member of the Sovereign Citizen movement was arrested after a failed attempt to take over a Tennessee county courthouse.

    Exactly one month later, in West Memphis Arkansas, Sovereign citizens Jerry and Joe Kane murdered two police officers before they themselves were shot and killed in the ensuing shoot out with police.

    On July 18, 2010 Byron Williams, an angry unemployed man, was arrested by police after they discovered a car full of weapons and ammunition that he had planned to use to kill progressives. He was on his way to the non-profit Tides Foundation Center, a favorite target of vitriol from Glenn Beck’s radio show.

    On Jan. 8, 2011 22-year old Jarold Lee Laughner killed six people, including a judge and a nine-year old child, and wounded 13 others, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), using a 9mm Glock 19 pistol during a public meeting in a supermarket parking lot near Tuscon, AZ.

    On Aug. 5, 2012 Wade Michael Page, a 40-year old white supremacist and U.S. Army veteran murdered six people and wounded four others inside a Sikh Temple in Oak Creek, WI with a Springfield XD(M) semi-automatic pistol.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/the-idea-that-recent-mass-shooters-are-mostly-registered-democrats-is-a-myth

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    Hooked's claims are based off a chain email that got sent around. Not only was this chain email horribly partisan biased, it wasn't even fact checked, just a bunch of made up crap.
    LOL, jinx!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  15. #535
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    And yet you have a signature quote from Milton where he implicitly states that might is only half the battle?

    Edit: I guess my point is if you believe what Milton says (and it's a great quote) I would think an intellectual discussion on the other half of the battle would be worth it.
    Read the quote in my sig. I don't believe that for a second. I'm just pointing out the...insanity that MMO-Champion Off-topic loves to bring.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz

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  16. #536
    Stood in the Fire Obtuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Yeah? You have to be pro-violence to be pro-gun now? I'm a firm believer of non-aggression.
    Sorry didn't mean to come across as an asshat. That said, I obviously did.
    Okay so my question would be what is the non-aggressive part of guns? Guns are for one thing. Shooting something. Sadly I tie any gun to aggression. I know plenty of people who hunt up here and I get that they do it for sport and more importantly food. But they use a gun so they can hide in the background, and hopefully drop the buck in one shot. They may not be aggressive people but they use the guns for aggressive purposes and because nothing else packs a killing blow like a firearm.

    You may be a fucking sweet heart, but I don't see anything passive about a firearm.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Read the quote in my sig. I don't believe that for a second. I'm just pointing out the...insanity that MMO-Champion Off-topic loves to bring.
    I'm usually pretty good at understanding context in his case I know they look at Milton as a respected author, and Paradise Lost is almost like The Odyssey and The Iliad in regards to it's place in our culture. I just thought it intriguing that someone who could see that there are two sides to the coin would state I'm pro this pro that against this etc, as it occurs to be a one sided approach.
    Obtuse and Obedient of Stormrage US

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    Ft. Hood shooter - Registered Democrat – Muslim

    Columbine shooters - Too young to vote but both families were registered
    Democrats and progressive liberals.

    Virginia Tech shooter - Registered Democrat - Wrote hate mail to President
    Bush and to his staff.

    Colorado Theater shooter - Registered Democrat; staff worker on the Obama
    campaign; Occupy Wall Street participant; progressive liberal.

    Connecticut School Shooter - Registered Democrat; hated Christians.

    Congresswoman Gabby Giffords’ shooter – Leftist, registered Democrat.
    Stop trying to tie violence with political beliefs, they aren't really the driving factor in mass shootings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    They can criticize our government and it's laws if they want just like how we criticize any nation in the Middle East and say North Korea.
    Hows that working out for us?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It's like an arms race with yourself!



    And have access to guns.



    And if you ever want to live in a sane country you're welcome to come to ours

    The idea that you can't depend on the police to protect you and need to be armed at all times in a modern Western country is either irrational, or if it is rational, a sign that you need to move the fuck out of whatever neighbourhood you live in.
    1. Everyone has access to guns in America, Lanza stole the gun from his mother. So even if you banned insane people from buying guns, they could still steal them from non insane people. Not to mention the black market. Id say the black market is very small to non existent in Australia because you are an island.

    2. Police have never really been responsible for a persons protection, they are there to enforce the rules of the state. If a robber breaks into your house the police response time isn't going to be fast enough to get there even in a good neighborhood.

  18. #538
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmanx View Post
    Against: Canadians have slightly more fire arms per capita than Americans and their gun related violence is in line with most of western Europe and far below the US.
    Key thing to note there : We have a hell of a lot of rifles and shotguns. We have very few handguns and owning a gun of any kind requires licensing, with more stringent licensing for handguns. Carrying a gun around, loaded and fireable, requires further licensing and pretty much doesn't happen outside of employment needs or exceptional circumstances.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
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  19. #539
    I am Murloc! GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obtuse View Post
    Sorry didn't mean to come across as an asshat. That said, I obviously did.
    Okay so my question would be what is the non-aggressive part of guns? Guns are for one thing. Shooting something. Sadly I tie any gun to aggression. I know plenty of people who hunt up here and I get that they do it for sport and more importantly food. But they use a gun so they can hide in the background, and hopefully drop the buck in one shot. They may not be aggressive people but they use the guns for aggressive purposes and because nothing else packs a killing blow like a firearm.

    You may be a fucking sweet heart, but I don't see anything passive about a firearm.
    I'll try to answer as best as I can even though Ive been up since 4 am and need to sleep.

    I'm definitely against the aggressive use of guns against other people (general crime, police brutality, war, etc). I'm not against self-defense or reasonable hunting (which is an entirely different debate imo). They're two different things. Aggression involves violating another person's rights in my opinion. Using a gun in self-defense isn't aggression. Even though I see nothing morally wrong with killing in self-defense, it's still not something that I generally take delight in. I don't like death but it's just the reality we live in. Sure I'm happy for the person who protected herself and may even be glad that the person who died didn't hurt anyone else, but I think it's always better to avoid unnecessary death if possible.

    That's just a small part of my stance on guns. There are also practical reasons, cultural reasons, and reasons stemming from our civil liberties. I realize other countries have different beliefs on gun ownership so I respect them, even if I may wildly disagree.



    I'm usually pretty good at understanding context in his case I know they look at Milton as a respected author, and Paradise Lost is almost like The Odyssey and The Iliad in regards to it's place in our culture. I just thought it intriguing that someone who could see that there are two sides to the coin would state I'm pro this pro that against this etc, as it occurs to be a one sided approach.
    Being pro-gun doesn't mean I'm anti-life (Not to be confused with the "pro-life" anti-abortion stance as I'm not talking about abortion). It's just a figure of speech and a quick way to say that you're generally in favor of something. I like the quote because as you said, it shows that there is more than violence; that it never solves all of your problems. I also like it because it's in one of my favorite books.
    In the fell clutch of circumstance
    I have not winced nor cried aloud.
    Under the bludgeonings of chance
    My head is bloody, but unbowed.

  20. #540
    Mechagnome BEYR's Avatar
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    An armed response, however small and/or unorganized, has proven to immediately end mass shootings in the US. Every single one that has met with an armed response ended with wither the shooter(s) immediately surrendering or killing themselves. That should probably be a much more publicized fact.
    You either die a Varian, or live long enough to see yourself become a Thrall...

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