DW vs 2h, have we all been forgetting that 2hs have more stats or is it just me?

[Totaltotemic]

BZZZZZZT ignored extra miss chance for DW, try again.

[FayrenPickpocket]

BZZZZZZT ignored extra miss chance for DW, try again.

Double dancing steel procs for DW still win out. Even with the 19% miss chance, DW still has 23150. But DW has a better chance to proc dancing steel and other trinkets which push it ahead.

Quick math on it.

2.3 RPPM * 1.119* (Seconds since last proc (cap at 10)/60)

Let's presume the proc is at a constant 10/60.

There would be a 16% chance to activate it at that time frame. Which means, it would probably be active about 16% of the time, or about 264 agility over all.

DW would each have a chance to proc it, so it would be up about 32% of the time, or 528 agility roughly over the time.

But because most things in this game are multiplicative, having an extra 3300 agility (6600 attack power at once) * 60% TeB would be worth more than a 1650*60% TeB.

And with 2h attack speed being at 2.09 and DW being at 2.11, that's in DW's favor. A 2h gets once swing every 2.09 seconds and DW gets 2 hits in every 2.11 seconds.

[Totaltotemic]

Double dancing steel procs for DW still win out. Even with the 19% miss chance, DW still has 23150. But DW has a better chance to proc dancing steel and other trinkets which push it ahead.

That's less than both 2h numbers you quoted. Please stop, we know DW and 2h are balanced with the sole exception of Dancing Steel interactions if they have literally the exact same stats. You don't need to do convoluted calculations using real stats to see that 40% more attacks and 40% more damage with each attack both increase damage by 40%.

As for the original question and proof:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=105625 572 1h Axe Crit/Mastery
http://www.wowhead.com/item=104638 572 2h Staff Crit/Mastery

Differences (subtracting out 1h stats from difference to account for having 2):

435 Agi
531 Stam
396 Crit
89 Mastery (485 secondary stats total)

But the 1h leaves us with another socket + 60 Agi, or 320 secondary stats + 120 secondary stats, so the final 2h benefit is:

435 Agi
531 Stam
45 secondary stat value

or 195 Agi, 531 Stam, and 485 secondary stat difference, depending on how you really want to count the socket.


If you compare other weapons even going back to T14 where weapons didn't have sockets you'd see a consistent trend of roughly equal secondary stats with an Agility and Stam bonus equal to 16.7% of the 2h's stats. This is true at every MoP item level. Obviously it gets a little weird when weapons start coming with sockets (2h BoA vs 2 1h BoA Garrosh weapons actually break even on Agi because there are 2 sockets in each), but the question still remains: at what item level does the difference in stats overtake Dancing Steel?

[FayrenPickpocket]

This is somewhat embarassing, but I only just discovered today that 2hs with equivalent ilvl to 2 1hs actually end up having 16.7% more primary stats (Agi and Stam) than the 1hs. The secondary stats end up evening out, but with how little this is ever mentioned anywhere I have to ask: have all of the analyses of various people who have been working on WW and BrM stuff actually taken into account the fact that a heroic Warforged 2/2 2h ends up giving about 500 more Agility than heroic Warforged 2/2 1hs?

I know the root of the 1h vs 2h debate has almost always been enchants (Way of the Monk is irrelevant as haste scales the attack speed after Way of the Monk so there's no devaluing of haste there at all), but at some point extra Agility starts to affect the total difference. Am I the only one that wasn't aware of this and I'm just being dumb, or is this something we actually need to figure out?

If you want to be a jerk, then fine. Here are the answers.

1) Yes, we have taken it into account. No it does not make 2handers better than dual wielding.
2) Yes, you are being dumb, and there is nothing to figure out. The math still puts DW ahead of 2handers.

You don't need to do convoluted calculations using real stats to see that 40% more attacks and 40% more damage with each attack both increase damage by 40%.

Obviously I do so I'm not just pulling out judgments out of thin air. You said that my quick math accounting for losing the 40% auto attack damage increase wasn't enough, so I expanded and included the second buff so you could see how things panned out.

at what item level does the difference in stats overtake Dancing Steel?

Due to the multiplicative nature of elements in wow, there isn't one set item level. That's why the community has been agreeable around the 12 item level mark.

When you start adding extra attack power to moves, that then multiply in their formulas, then factor in more multiplication from TEB, trinket procs, cloak procs, lusts, damage buffs, potions, and other temporary sources, we'd have to break it down into calculus and do calcuations for each of the individual procs, and then multiply them together because you'll probably have 2 dancing steel procs + both trinket procs + a pre pot potion at the beginning of a fight with lust, and chi brew 10 stacks of TeB before it's all gone.

[Totaltotemic]

If you want to be a jerk, then fine. Here are the answers.

1) Yes, we have taken it into account. No it does not make 2handers better than dual wielding.
2) Yes, you are being dumb, and there is nothing to figure out. The math still puts DW ahead of 2handers.


Obviously I do so I'm not just pulling out judgments out of thin air. You said that my quick math accounting for losing the 40% auto attack damage increase wasn't enough, so I expanded and included the second buff so you could see how things panned out.

You first ignored 2h increasing attack speed. Then you ignored the 19% extra chance to miss. Then you said that a number that was lower was actually a number that was higher (23150 is not higher than 23374 or 23495). Sorry, wrong on proc frequency.

[Saltycracker]

Go do a dummy test with DW and a 2h of the same item level, and DW will produce more DPS.

[FayrenPickpocket]

You first ignored 2h increasing attack speed. Then you ignored the 19% extra chance to miss. Then you said that a number that was lower was actually a number that was higher (23150 is not higher than 23374 or 23495). Then you did a Dancing Steel calculation and ignored that 2h gets 2x frequency, which does not result in 2x uptime but rather some function of uptime based on how high your uptime is and factoring in chance of overriding procs. Like I said, please stop, or at least check over your own work before you try to tell people how wrong they are.

2handers don't get 2x frequency of procs. Dual wielding does, because theres 2 enchants on two weapons. They never gave 2handed items a 4.6 rppm chance for Dancing steel. They have the same 2.3 that Dual wielding does.

In my original calculation, my half assed one. I ignored the attack speed change, and the reduction of the miss penalty for the sake of needing to do all the effort.

In my second calculation, I was calculating weapon damage and speed, because that number is what scales up everything else. I wasn't paying attention to miss chance because that wasn't my goal of it.

[Totaltotemic]

Go do a dummy test with DW and a 2h of the same item level, and DW will produce more DPS.

Oh come on, with all of the work you've put into figuring out WW DPS "go hit a target dummy for a while" should be the exact kind of thing that you know won't produce accurate results. You know better than that, there's no need for everyone to be so stuck up on believing a gospel someone made up a long time ago just because we don't like change.

- - - Updated - - -

2handers don't get 2x frequency of procs. Dual wielding does, because theres 2 enchants on two weapons. They never gave 2handed items a 4.6 rppm chance for Dancing steel. They have the same 2.3 that Dual wielding does.

In my original calculation, my half assed one. I ignored the attack speed change, and the reduction of the miss penalty for the sake of needing to do all the effort.

In my second calculation, I was calculating weapon damage and speed, because that number is what scales up everything else. I wasn't paying attention to miss chance because that wasn't my goal of it.

Right I had to go check the original post, it was DW that had double frequency but then was changed to proccing two separate times for the same RPPM rather than one time for double. Sorry about that.

How do you reconcile that in your own calculation 2h does more DPS when you factor in miss chance, 400 extra agility comparing with 264 Agility (even with TEB during procs it breaks even at best), and then saying that 2h is better? From where I'm standing it looks like they're almost perfectly balanced and I don't see anything else wrong with your own calculations.

I just mean if weapon DPS is balanced by increased miss chance, 40% from Way of the Monk is the same as the other 40% from Way of the Monk, doesn't that leave the only difference at all being in Dancing Steel? And are we not at an item level where the extra stats start to erase that difference?

[Saltycracker]

Oh come on, with all of the work you've put into figuring out WW DPS "go hit a target dummy for a while" should be the exact kind of thing that you know won't produce accurate results. You know better than that, there's no need for everyone to be so stuck up on believing a gospel someone made up a long time ago just because we don't like change.

Maybe, but that's the quickest way to verify your hypothesis. Go leave your monk on a dummy for about 20mins ea. and you will see your results with a big enough sample size.

All this hand wavey math makes a lot of assumptions, so I trust experimental data more than napkin math.

[Totaltotemic]

Maybe, but that's the quickest way to verify your hypothesis. Go leave your monk on a dummy for about 20mins ea. and you will see your results with a big enough sample size.

All this hand wavey math makes a lot of assumptions, so I trust experimental data more than napkin math.

I don't think many people have a properly enchanted 2h with the same stats as 2 1hs that are the same ilvl laying around. If there was even a decent weapon I could buy relatively cheaply to achieve this I would, but that kind of test requires a lot of control and the crusade against 2h has left that not really an option. Hell, most people don't even have 2 of the same 1h weapon.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Right I had to go check the original post, it was DW that had double frequency but then was changed to proccing two separate times for the same RPPM rather than one time for double. Sorry about that.

How do you reconcile that in your own calculation 2h does more DPS when you factor in miss chance, 400 extra agility comparing with 264 Agility (even with TEB during procs it breaks even at best), and then saying that 2h is better? From where I'm standing it looks like they're almost perfectly balanced and I don't see anything else wrong with your own calculations.

I just mean if weapon DPS is balanced by increased miss chance, 40% from Way of the Monk is the same as the other 40% from Way of the Monk, doesn't that leave the only difference at all being in Dancing Steel? And are we not at an item level where the extra stats start to erase that difference?

The WoD General Forums does a good job of describing this in their racial debate.

I mean, hypothetically, yes. I mean, even double dancing steel only gives an average of 264 increase to DW, which is still less than the 2h is ahead. But because Dancing steel isn't an average, and it causes everything to multiply together, when you combine it with trinket procs and cds and such, you'll get a greater yield than if it was just a passive 264 agility.

[Totaltotemic]

The WoD General Forums does a good job of describing this in their racial debate.

I mean, hypothetically, yes. I mean, even double dancing steel only gives an average of 264 increase to DW, which is still less than the 2h is ahead. But because Dancing steel isn't an average, and it causes everything to multiply together, when you combine it with trinket procs and cds and such, you'll get a greater yield than if it was just a passive 264 agility.

Oh I know, I'm not trying to say 2h is better, just maybe that it's even. All of this also applies to BrM since there's nothing WW-specific in here. What I'm concerned about is whether or not the heroic WF 2hs I've let go to offspecs 2-3 times may have actually been better than my non-wf heroic OH, for both WW and BrM. This idea was around long before I really started caring about Monks so I never bothered to go into exactly why it is. If I'm right it would mean that it was very accurate at the time, just that people kind of forgot why and never looked back into it to see. Barring any hugely significant changes though we'd be able to use this going into WoD also, knowing that double enchant is better at the start but that over the course of the expansion the gulf is narrowed.

[siccora]

sorry, but all this math is crap. its good to do some spreadsheets, rawr and stuff but at the end, go to a dummy and fight 10 minutes. then switch to another weapon setup and do it again. i do more dps with my 2 1H weapons. i have more crit and more stam (and yes, agi without the dancing steel) but i don't need it. so 2x1H it is.

[Totaltotemic]

sorry, but all this math is crap. its good to do some spreadsheets, rawr and stuff but at the end, go to a dummy and fight 10 minutes. then switch to another weapon setup and do it again. i do more dps with my 2 1H weapons. i have more crit and more stam (and yes, agi without the dancing steel) but i don't need it. so 2x1H it is.

Do you have 2 1h weapons and a 2h weapon of the same item level with the same stats that you did this test with? How much was this difference? Were you trying to do a full rotation or just AAing? Without answers to those questions it can't be considered a legitimate test.

[Saltycracker]

So, Kor'kron Spire of Supremacy: http://www.wowhead.com/item=105634

+2403 Agility
+3725 Stamina
+1736 Critical Strike (2.89% @ L90)
+1429 Mastery (2.38 @ L90)

Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +60 Agility

2623 Agi & 3165 Secondary Stats

Compared to two Korven's Crimson Crescents: http://www.wowhead.com/item=105625

+984 Agility
+1597 Stamina
+670 Critical Strike (1.12% @ L90)
+670 Mastery (1.12 @ L90)

Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +60 Agility

2408 Agi & 2680 Secondary Stats

Difference of 215 Agi and 485 secondary stats. Not insignificant, but I'm guessing an extra dancing steel (~759 Agi) makes up for the difference considering the DPS between the two is just normalized weapon DPS.

[siccora]

i have two fists from protectors and the staff from imm. all hc. i "tanked" a dummy for 10 minutes but i did not use xuen.

because with the staff i have a little bit lack of hit i reforged the staff (normally i have exp to haste but now it was exp to hit) so that i can swap just the weapons and be fine with exp and hit.

only selfbuffed (stats)
with the 2 1H 98k
with the 1 2H 88k

and now just an astethic note: i do not like the staff or whatever on my back. i think it is WAY to high on the body. i transed the fist weapons with the novice's handwraps so there are no weapons at all.

[Totaltotemic]

Difference of 215 Agi and 485 secondary stats. Not insignificant, but I'm guessing an extra dancing steel (~759 Agi) makes up for the difference considering the DPS between the two is just normalized weapon DPS.

Right, and a 5.75% difference in weapon DPS from 6 ilvls isn't even close to worth it for 1% or 2% of Agility, not to mention that the difference isn't even that big when we're talking about lower ilvls.

What I'm trying to say is that I think we can throw the "DW > 2h unless 6+ ilvls higher" thing out the window at this high item level and just call them even. Absolutely ideal case still probably favors DW a very, very little bit, but I can't see any reason whatsoever to use a non-warforged 1h if you have a warforged 2h, even if that's just an off-hand weapon.

[kamuimac]

I mean, hypothetically, yes. I mean, even double dancing steel only gives an average of 264 increase to DW, which is still less than the 2h is ahead. But because Dancing steel isn't an average, and it causes everything to multiply together, when you combine it with trinket procs and cds and such, you'll get a greater yield than if it was just a passive 264 agility.

then dont spread rumours only say to people honestly and openly - if u would ever had encounter which behaved like training dummy and karma loves u very higly moon and sun collides , you sacrifice 10 pigs to the gods before raids then DW will produce for him/her slightly better resoults then 2H -_- . and this is something what maybe 0.1 % of playerbase is able to achieve while most of monk dps bases all their weapon choices on this and are surprised why their dps dont magically change overnight when they switch from 2H to DW of same itlv -_-

[Deleted]

Autoattack damage is WDPS + DPS from AP
DPS from attack power counts once for 2H obviously, and 1,5* for DW - DPS lost for missed attacks.
The more attack power DPS we have in relation to weapon DPS and the more of our auto attacks crit (lowering the percentual impact of missed hits on overall autoattack DPS), the more DW will pull ahead of 2H.
To explain the latter:
Assuming no crits 75% hits 25% glancings, overall damage is around 94% of theoretical DPS if yll attacks hit.
Losing 19% of Hits lowers that to 75%, basically giving DW a damage multiplier of around 0,8 (0,75/0,94) for missed attacks
With 50% crit we can add another 50% damage for 144% damage total, so effective damage multiplier gets lowered to (144-19)/144 = 0,87

Double dancing steel is just icing on the cake.

[hagorran]

By it's very nature, yes, it is.

Faster attack speed + a lower generation per proc means the amount of EB stacks you generate within a period of time will be more frequent, but you will generate less stacks per proc.

Lower attack speed + a higher generation per proc means you get more bang for your buck, but your buck comes less frequently.

DW BRM isn't HIGHER EB gain, or at least if there is a difference, it's negligible.



I remember doing this once, back during t14, with some weapons from that tier. I think 2h came out on top stat-wise, but just barely.

I personally when using two DW weapons of the same ilvl as a 2h notice that my elusive brew is a lot more erratic and not even. When doing the math and simulations it should be evener and smoother elusive brew regen but not when playing as it. The ony thing that is good is the two dancing steel procs.