Button bloat: what are the bloatiest specs? (IYO)

[Tinkertee]

I actually use every monk ability, except Touch of Death because long time dont play PVP. Maybe transcendence because it requires 2 buttons while it could just be a warlock portal. Maybe CJL for non-healer specs...

On the other hand, I think many of the warlocks abilities are bloaty. Ex:
* Dark Regeneration, normally macro'd with healthstone
* Twilight Ward, normally used in conjunction with other defensive
* Curses are currently almost a bloat, because nowadays you'd rarely use enfeeblement with its nerfs. I'd prefer making it more powerful (even with a cd) than removing it though.
* The whole lv 60 talent tier is bullshat (burning rush, blood fear, etc). Mobility has to be toned down, CC has to be toned down.
* Grimoire of service requires a lot of extra keybinds, which is bad
* New mannoroth's fury is bloat
* Drain life is currently almost a bloat, but I'd say it should be made meaningful
* Soul swap should be removed from the game
* Rain of fire and SoC are superposing AOE mechanics and on the past we also had hasvest life

I don't consider Enslave demon a bloat because it's an iconic warlock spell which normally doesnt require a key binding.

[Deleted]

Warlock was so much worse. And Soul Swap should be removed? Really? Pretty much the signature spell of affliction. Its what us shadow look at with jealousy. If we had that spell with UVLS, fuckin' hell...

[Celista]

Monks for sure.

Honestly when playing Monks I was surprised at how bloated their bars feel considering how new they are.

I noticed this too.

[exochaft]

I'll view the button bloat as literally having too many abilities that can be useful for effective gameplay

While I can see macros helping with some spells, it's definitely not the answer to many situations. Even for some single abilities I have, I already require a macro just to have it behave in a proper manner depending upon the situation. While sometimes combining abilities into one macro, especially in terms of cooldowns, can be useful... again, it's not always the answer, as I've found many occasions where I don't want to use them in conjunction with each other, and it ends up with me binding the individual abilities for those situations where I need to separate them.

Over time, though, the button bloat issues has been steadily getting better in some areas. Warlocks have gotten much better than what they used to be, since spells have been separated to their individual specs. Other classes/specs have received similar treatment since the talent tree removal, as well, probably not to the same extent.

However, there is room for improvement. Druids are likely the largest culprit, even though some abilities have been removed. By having 4 roles capable by the class as well as shape-shifting being a primary aspect of the class, it is naturally going to be a nightmare in order to maintain the integrity of the class... again, there is still room for improvement without loss to the integrity of the class. In PvE from a broader class perspective, I think Blizz handing out raid CD's like candy doesn't help adding more buttons to worry about, and making many class/specs more in line regardless of encounter forces some extra buttons into existence. As a generalization, I'd say PvP is a bigger button bloat issue over PvE since you add a bunch of CC's and spells that generally don't get used with great frequency in PvE anymore... my binds cry out in agony when I go PvP Feral!

Since I see monks popping up quite a bit, I figured I'd throw in what happened between me and my co-tank when we both leveled tanks of each others class (I'm normally Guardian while he's normally Brewmaster). While I complained that monks had too many buttons and things to worry about, he complained that bears had too many buttons and things to worry about. My opinon is that like many things, the grass is always greener on the other side, and one man's button bloat is another man's comfort zone.

If people are worried about the loss of spells/abilities making them less powerful, I'm fairly confident Blizz would bolster said classes/specs to be fine after their loss in other areas. "Signature" spells kept for the sake of always being there while having little to no impact in either PvE or PvP could likely get glyph treatment... but people should embrace change since it will come no matter how much anyone complains.

[Jeremypwnz]

For Hunters, rotation-wise, they don't have THAT many buttons. But there are quite a few utility buttons.

Serpent Sting
Signature Shot
Secondary Ability (Black Arrow, Aimed Shot, Bestial Wrath)
Cobra/Steady Shot
Kill Shot
Rapid Fire
Stampede
Arcane Shot
60 Talent
75 Talent
90 Talent

And then there is Explosive Trap and Multishot for AOE.

So that's 11 buttons for single target and 13 for AOE. And the 60/75 talent abilities can be passive so you can lower it to 9 for single target and 11 for AOE. +1 for BM because Focus Fire.

And then relevant PVE utility buttons. I include stuns/CCs/interrupts in here.

Counter/Silencing shot
30 Talent
Disengage
Deterrence
Snake Trap -- Only useful on a handful of bosses where you can set it before the fight starts for an extra 100k damage.
Icy Trap -- practically useless
Frost Trap -- I've only need it on Garrosh trash this tier
Misdirection -- lol
Master's Call -- Only useful on Malkorok if you don't have 2 Druids.
Distracting Shot -- Only on Garrosh to separate Minions of Y'shaarj
Call/Dismiss Pet -- Siegecrafter only
Rez Pet -- How does your pet die?
Heart of the Phoenix -- ^
Widow Venom -- Thok
Camouflage -- Paragons
Tranquilizing Shot

And an extra 17 buttons, almost all of which are damn near useless or fight dependent.

Things like Scare Beast, Flare (arguable for Assassins on Nazgrim), Trap Launcher Toggle, Beast Lore, Feed Pet (does that exist still?), Cheetah/Pack, ect. I don't include because that have no value in a raid setting. Running back from a wipe with Pack doesn't count.

[Extremity]

name the two or three class/specs that you feel are the worst offenders of so-called button bloat

I would have to sayin my limited experience that Prot or Ret Paladins, Windwalkers and either Enh Shamans or Feral Druids have too many buttons to push (either too many abilities that are rarely used or too many abilities that need to be used and prioritized in the limited amount of time to use them)... but i have not played every spec and class in this game at max level so what do i know?

what specs do You think require too many unique keybinds, or which have multiple abilities piling up on eachother during their rotations or have too many niche-utility abilities that languish in obscurity...

Paladin has been my main since BC, prot specifically. In BC I was the top tank on my server and ranked very, very high in the US even when most people had the mindset of "prot paladins are only good for tanking trash". Yeah, it sucked not having a shieldwall but I managed. Anyways, even now I highly disagree. Prot Paladins do *not* have many buttons to use, especially compared to other classes. I haven't touched my Paladin since the first few months of MoP because it was just... boring. I now play and raid heroic SoO on a Warlock, and also have a 90 Resto Shaman that I PVP on.

Every other max-level character I've played has felt like it had more it could do and more buttons than my Paladin. My Warlock probably has twice the buttons, and my Shaman has more too. Paladins are only bloated because of things like buffs and utility, but in terms of PURELY what you use to perform your main specs role, there aren't too many.

As far as fixing bloat, I think we just need to change how a lot of class contributions work. Why does my Warlock need a button for Unending Breath? If people in my group need water breathing, I've really got to individually cast it on every single one? It needs to be something like a DK's water walking, a group-wide toggle. Better yet, a passive; if you're grouped with a warlock and within X yards, you can breathe underwater. If I can cast it on myself at any time, what's the point of having it? Why not just passively have underwater breathing at all times as a Warlock? It's just little things like that; the button serves no purpose aside from "press me". There's no cooldown, no thought to using it, no restrictions on its use, so why HAVE it? A button should be a variable, an action you can take situationally, you should have to decide when to hit it. It shouldn't be something that you can just hit whatever you want to perform some mediocre action that could be passively applied. Water Walking and Water Breathing spells should be passive or applied group-wide. All buffs like Dark Intent, Fort, Blessing of Might, whatever should be PASSIVELY GROUP WIDE, like a shadow priest giving spell haste.

The only time you should actually have to click to apply a buff is when you have to decide between them. Inner Focus vs whatever else a priest has. A Paladin deciding if he's going to do Might or Kings. That's fine. But when it's "I only have Dark Intent so if I'm in a group I'm always going to have it up" it's stupid and should just passively be there. If you removed all of the abilities like that, you'd already cut back on like 10% of ability bloat.

[Deleted]

I play only warlocks, and they are fine. Adding curses to auto-apply will only destroy what this class was about.

[Deleted]

None are! I wanna keep my 240 keybind rotation, dont take away my fun!! !

On a serious note, I dont find this game fun to play because of its advanced combat rotations.
I find it fun when I accomplish something in-game with my guildies, and if I had to choose I would prefer
a system like Guild Wars 2. To me fun doesnt equal advanced rotations with myriads of keybinds, at least.

[roahn the warlock]

Some are kind of bad. Since the game is moving from a rotation=win. To survival= win. Less buttons means more movement.

[Twotonsteak]

Any of the hunter specs and WW monks.

[roahn the warlock]

Any of the hunter specs and WW monks.

Survival and marksmen is fine. Bm is kind of bad.

The ability to move and cast makes up for survival and marks.

WW monks problem is that it is a very fast rotation, it reminds me of dk's back in wrath

[Prag]

Leave my buttons alone. -Hunter

[Deleted]

Survival and marksmen is fine. Bm is kind of bad.

The ability to move and cast makes up for survival and marks.

WW monks problem is that it is a very fast rotation, it reminds me of dk's back in wrath

BM for PvE only uses 1 more keybind AFAICT. In my case this 1 more keybind is a problem because as SV I got just enough keybinds. YMMV.

Utility-wise hunter has a lot. I believe all the pet management is pretty bloated and I'd like to settle for 1 button & the option removed to switch pet between fight. You pick a pet before fight and ya stick to it. Same for lock.

[nexellent]

as an enhance shaman/mage main, and have a 540+alt of every class, nothing really has too many buttons,just use control/alt modifier macroes and you have enough keybinds to last you forever lol

[Usako]

Hunter hands down. I have nothing open. And I find myself using everything on my bars at least once a day/week/rotation, etc. Sooooo, yeah. But if they take something away, I'll probably bitch. Like when eyes of the beast was taken. QQ

[Deleted]

Hunter hands down. I have nothing open. And I find myself using everything on my bars at least once a day/week/rotation, etc. Sooooo, yeah. But if they take something away, I'll probably bitch. Like when eyes of the beast was taken. QQ

I would say at least some abilities could be combined in a dropdown menu. Like the revive/dismiss shit together with call pet. Even though it should be dumped down. If it is dumped down for lock, why not for hunter? Either that or remove other stuff. And since that isn't really feasible... I mean as a priest I do miss Mind Soothe.

[PenguinChan]

It used to be warlock, holy christ on a stick. That shit was a mess last I remember, worse than what the hunter is now. And I believe hunter has the most buttons to press now, more often than others.

[Deleted]

It's NOT too many spells if you just learn when to use them and what they do. It's just a matter of laziness, that people expect to be able to start to "pwn" as fast as they reach 90 on their alt. It doesn't work like that. Take the time to LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS before your start to complain about ability bloat. Once you're really good, you will start to enjoy the complexity.

I only play my feral druid (no other class). And in every single duel, battleground or arena, I use around 40+ different spells (not included passives and macros). I have all of those keybinded and I have mouse with FOUR buttons. And since it's so complex, and since I know all the spells so good, I NEVER get bored.

But as I said. Currently you need to put 100% of your time into one class if you want to learn and handle the complexity and all the spells. I've a playtime of 200 days as feral on my druid, and it does require that much time to be able to master a class with 40+ different important spells in every arena.

So if you have different alts that you spend your time on. Or if your playtime on your main is below 50 days: [U]EXPECT[U] it to be too complex for you with 40+ different spells. Since you will need to spend A LOT of time into 1 character to master them all. But when you do manage to master your class, it will be more fun than anything. And you won't need to create new alts.

[Deleted]

Brewmaster Monk. Nuff said.

So... many... situational... abilities... cannot.. handle.. ugh.

[Ralikon]

enhance has a lot of annoying extra bullshit in what should be a simple rotation

- - - Updated - - -

It's NOT too many spells if you just learn when to use them and what they do. It's just a matter of laziness, that people expect to be able to start to "pwn" as fast as they reach 90 on their alt. It doesn't work like that. Take the time to LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS before your start to complain about ability bloat. Once you're really good, you will start to enjoy the complexity.

I only play my feral druid (no other class). And in every single duel, battleground or arena, I use around 40+ different spells (not included passives and macros). I have all of those keybinded and I have mouse with FOUR buttons. And since it's so complex, and since I know all the spells so good, I NEVER get bored.

But as I said. Currently you need to put 100% of your time into one class if you want to learn and handle the complexity and all the spells. I've a playtime of 200 days as feral on my druid, and it does require that much time to be able to master a class with 40+ different important spells in every arena.

So if you have different alts that you spend your time on. Or if your playtime on your main is below 50 days: [U]EXPECT[U] it to be too complex for you with 40+ different spells. Since you will need to spend A LOT of time into 1 character to master them all. But when you do manage to master your class, it will be more fun than anything. And you won't need to create new alts.

lol holy shit this couldn't be any further from the truth. It's not a matter of not knowing how to be play your class or being lazy at all. There is a difference between knowing when to use your monotonous abilities and knowing the keybind you have set for your monotonous abilities. Furthermore, if and when you learn the keybindings for your monotonous abilities, you find yourself doing a hell of a lot more work than some other classes. The argument between workloads between classes is different matter.

and wtf 200 days to master a class? Maybe for you bud, maybe for you.