My Chemist class concept (Long)

[Teriz]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Hunter/page44

Your third post down is the one I quoted. From the same thread I quoted earlier in this one, where you stated that the only other class will be Tinker.
I mentioned a class having a Spellbreaker spec. Your immediate response was "Not happening." Someone in here mentions you should try a Spellbreaker concept. Suddenly it's a fun challenge. Why would someone else's idea to try a Spellbreaker concept they might think would just be fun to dream up be immediately dismissed but yours gets to be a fun challenge?

Versus threads aren't the same as class concept threads, that's why. In versus threads we argue over which concept has the best chance of becoming the next class.

[Thimagryn]

Yeah, in class threads we just argue on the impossibility of any new class concept being created

[Enthusiastic Steward]

Versus threads aren't the same as class concept threads, that's why. In versus threads we argue over which concept has the best chance of becoming the next class.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that different threads had different rules.

So, what broad archetype would Spellbreakers belong to?

[Drilnos]

Honestly I think the challenge is when you look at a picture without any text, is it distinct? When you look at WoW artwork you can usually make a pretty accurate guess as to what kind of person the character portrayed is. If you saw a picture of someone mixing chemicals you would think it was artwork of an alchemist even though that isn't a class it is something someone can be in the game and has an inherent image associated with it. Blizzard does a remarkably good job of creating classes(and professions) that are immediately identifiable in artwork without needing subtext or an explanation. Really I think when designing a new class you have to ask yourself "what makes this stand out thematically?" and "could I easily identify this class in artwork without needing subtext?".

I dunno, looks distinct enough to me, what with the spray gun and the goblin riding the ogre. Especially considering that the only way to tell an alchemist from a non-alchemist in the actual game is to check his armory page.

[jbombard]

I dunno, looks distinct enough to me, what with the spray gun and the goblin riding the ogre. Especially considering that the only way to tell an alchemist from a non-alchemist in the actual game is to check his armory page.

I am not talking about in game. I am talking about promotional artwork. Blizzard's classes and professions depending on the nature of artwork are very easily identifiable. As to whether or not it is obviously subjective and comes down to opinion.

While there are parts of the chemist that are unique the question is are they enough to really make them a distinct class visually and thematically speaking? I am not so sure. Also can you identify the class without the pet? If the pet is the most distinct and identifiable thing about the class, it feels as if the pet is the the class. Thematically I think it is just too close to an alchemist, just like tinker seems a bit too close to engineering, and demon hunters feel more like a 4th spec for warlocks.

[Stir]

Troublesome how? How has the inclusion of brewing skills within the Monk class caused any problems with the Alchemy profession?

Can you give me ONE good reason as to why Alchemists and Cooks cannot create those same brews? Even ONE?
That is why it is troublesome. It's a specialization that falls into the field of those professions. If a brew exists, then, reasonably, alchemists and cooks should be able to make it. If they're not able to make it, then it should not exist. Period.

Again, to reiterate an earlier point I made:
If this class concept came in a vacuum (and did not invlove the lab assistent), then I would be all for it. It's well thought out, has a nice amount of immersive grit to it, and it does speak to the imagination.
But it doesn't sit in a vacuum. It's made in WoW's framework. And I'm not saying WoW does it right all the time (hell; the monk brews are hugely inconsistent, as well as being annoyingly slapstick), but I am saying that people shouldn't allow themselves the same mistakes because the blizzard developers did.

[Bumbasta]

Really interesting read, i like the idea. Though the problem of it having a lot in common with alchemy remains.

[Teriz]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that different threads had different rules.

So, what broad archetype would Spellbreakers belong to?

I have some rough ideas, but nothing concrete yet.

- - - Updated - - -

Really interesting read, i like the idea. Though the problem of it having a lot in common with alchemy remains.

Thanks. I'm just happy that so many appear to enjoy the concept in general.

[Ielenia]

One thing. Professional alchemists make concoctions which only take effect upon ingestion. They don't make any topical or inhalant medicines. So while you could in theory RP your character throwing a potion in someone's face, it still wouldn't heal them.

Says who? Where is it said, in stone, that professional alchemists must ONLY make ingestable potions? BTW, here's one for you that cannot be drank. And another.

They can't. For example, my alchemist can't toss a healing potion at a warrior to heal them. That's what I'm talking about. WTH are you talking about?

~le sigh.

Seriously? The contraditions have started already? Go back to your own opening post and read the 'Throw Concoction' skill that YOU designed. Then go to your 'Demolitionist' spec and read the 'Oil Bottle' description. Oh, hey, what's this little nifty 'Poison Brew' skill in your Biohazard spec? 'Primordial Slime' also looks interesting. I also do wonder how the abilities 'Healing Tonic', 'Phoenix Elixir', 'Blood Tonic' all work, since, like you said, your character cannot toss potions to other party members.

Also, before you complain: tossing a bottle by hand or by gun matters none. Both are the same thing. Same as attacking a mob with your fists or a blade.

Obviously you didn't read the spell's history. Up until Cataclysm it increased intellect. Intellect increases mana regen, and up until MoP, increased your mana pool.

... Seriously? Ok, go read those links again. Come on, go. I'll wait. Have you read them again? Good. So let's take your piss-poor example of the classic 'Arcane Brilliance', shall we? Ok. First, one is a castable buff. Therefore, removable. The other is an aura. Not removable; Second, one increases Intellect, the other, mana per second.

Besides, you know that the 'mana regen' given from intellect is vastly inferior than a skill that ACTUALLY increases mana regeneration.

And, even if with all that, you still choose to be daft and claim both are one and the same, go to the Mt. Hyjal raid.

[Drilnos]

Says who? Where is it said, in stone, that professional alchemists must ONLY make ingestable potions? BTW, here's one for you that cannot be drank. And another.

I rather heavily suspect it's written in a design document somewhere at Blizzard HQ. You also have to realize you're stretching just a tiny bit when you have to go all the way back to Vanilla to find a counterexample, especially one which, again, doesn't heal. And needs to be applied internally, can't forget that.

[Topcraft]

Nice read. Sounds very interesting. The way you wrote it makes me want to play the class.

[Ielenia]

I rather heavily suspect it's written in a design document somewhere at Blizzard HQ. You also have to realize you're stretching just a tiny bit when you have to go all the way back to Vanilla to find a counterexample, especially one which, again, doesn't heal. And needs to be applied internally, can't forget that.

Really? So Blizzard has a headquarter in Azeroth where they issue regulations about what this or that profession can or cannot do, and all races must abide by it? Alchemists CAN make poisons. And anyone can grab something and toss it at someone. The reason the profession Alchemy for player characters doesn't make poisons is simply because Blizzard's intention is make professions into a supporting role, giving buffs, armor or gears to the players, not an active damage/healing/tanking role.

And what's wrong about going back to Classic WoW to look for examples? It's still WoW. Those recipes are still in-game, to this day, so your argument is invalid. Remember: the in-game, not-available-for-players Alchemy CAN make poisons and other stuff, or how do you think poisons and acids were invented and are created? By the acid and poison trees, who bear vials of acid or poison as fruit? What about the famous 'unstable concoction'? Or just about any kind of poison and acid used by NPCs?

[Drilnos]

Really? So Blizzard has a headquarter in Azeroth where they issue regulations about what this or that profession can or cannot do, and all races must abide by it? Alchemists CAN make poisons. And anyone can grab something and toss it at someone. The reason the profession Alchemy for player characters doesn't make poisons is simply because Blizzard's intention is make professions into a supporting role, giving buffs, armor or gears to the players, not an active damage/healing/tanking role.

And what's wrong about going back to Classic WoW to look for examples? It's still WoW. Those recipes are still in-game, to this day, so your argument is invalid. Remember: the in-game, not-available-for-players Alchemy CAN make poisons and other stuff, or how do you think poisons and acids were invented and are created? By the acid and poison trees, who bear vials of acid or poison as fruit? What about the famous 'unstable concoction'? Or just about any kind of poison and acid used by NPCs?

The only reason you can't find a niche for this class is because you don't want to find one. That's all your rambling has managed to convince me of.

Alchemists learn from trainers. Trainers don't teach some recipes. This is by design. It doesn't have to be explained. End transmission.

[Stir]

The only reason you can't find a niche for this class is because you don't want to find one. That's all your rambling has managed to convince me of.

Alchemists learn from trainers. Trainers don't teach some recipes. This is by design. It doesn't have to be explained. End transmission.

Yes, it does have to be explained. Consistency is absolutely key. Which is why I use the Monk class as an explanation on what NOT to do. Granting them 'brew' effects was a mistake. It is bad for consistency.

[Bluesftw]

see now thats neatly designed class concept, even tho i find some parts of it quite silly. reminds me of the apothecary trio from valentines event , i'd play that for 'lol' factor at least ;]

[Shahad]

Just throwing this out there: A blacksmith using the weapons he created offensively is called a Warrior.

Screw that, let's have a Forgemaster class! You go into battle with your hammer, place an anvil, and start smiting swords that you THROW in the face of things! Fun for the whole family!

[Teriz]

~le sigh.

Seriously? The contraditions have started already? Go back to your own opening post and read the 'Throw Concoction' skill that YOU designed. Then go to your 'Demolitionist' spec and read the 'Oil Bottle' description. Oh, hey, what's this little nifty 'Poison Brew' skill in your Biohazard spec? 'Primordial Slime' also looks interesting. I also do wonder how the abilities 'Healing Tonic', 'Phoenix Elixir', 'Blood Tonic' all work, since, like you said, your character cannot toss potions to other party members.

Yeah, again WTH are you talking about? The Alchemist PROFESSION can't throw potions and tonics at targets. However, the Chemist CLASS I created can. That gives my class the ability to perform multiple roles, and the lack of it causes the profession to be unable to perform any roles at all.

Also, before you complain: tossing a bottle by hand or by gun matters none. Both are the same thing. Same as attacking a mob with your fists or a blade.

Actually its not, because tossing a bottle or shooting it with a gun would give it a 30-40 yard range.

... Seriously? Ok, go read those links again. Come on, go. I'll wait. Have you read them again? Good. So let's take your piss-poor example of the classic 'Arcane Brilliance', shall we? Ok. First, one is a castable buff. Therefore, removable. The other is an aura. Not removable; Second, one increases Intellect, the other, mana per second.

Besides, you know that the 'mana regen' given from intellect is vastly inferior than a skill that ACTUALLY increases mana regeneration.

And, even if with all that, you still choose to be daft and claim both are one and the same, go to the Mt. Hyjal raid.

Its called balance. It was changed so that all classes could benefit from the buff. A Warrior wouldn't benefit much from a mana regen aura.

[Ielenia]

The only reason you can't find a niche for this class is because you don't want to find one. That's all your rambling has managed to convince me of.

Alchemists learn from trainers. Trainers don't teach some recipes. This is by design. It doesn't have to be explained. End transmission.

I don't need to 'find' one because there already is: the alchemist profession. You're the one not wanting to accept that. And taking from your last line:

"Alchemists learn from trainers. Trainers don't teach some recipes. This is by design." Oh yes, of course. Which is why there are obscure recipes to be found from drops from mobs or limited quantities from vendors.

And since you go 'by design', do you really think the forsaken alchemy trainers, and the apothecaries, don't know poisons and acid recipes? They created the f*ing PLAGUE for crying out loud! It'd be stupid not to teach their forsaken brethren, interested in alchemy, some poison and acid recipes at least?

[Teriz]

I don't need to 'find' one because there already is: the alchemist profession. You're the one not wanting to accept that.

Professions don't create niches. They simply create items to sell or trade for player use. That's their sole purpose, and why a class can never significantly overlap with a profession.

[Ielenia]

Professions don't create niches. They simply create items to sell or trade for player use. That's their sole purpose, and why a class can never significantly overlap with a profession.

Precisely. And your class does exactly that: completely overlap the Alchemy and Engineering professions. By making a class that is BOTH an alchemist and engineer. There is no way around it. Just because it cannot make healing potions to sell is irrelevant. It is an alchemist.