WoW is soooo "developer" driven and not player driven. Reason cause its losing subs!

[Dundebuns]

Sometimes I like to read a story. Sometimes I like to write a story. WoW fills in one of these requirements. If I wish for the other, I can always go play Minecraft.

[Faroth]

The audience was not quite the same back then, though. Also, development costs were much lower, making games like that possible.
Nowadays, even a sandbox MMO requires a metric crapton of art and code, making dev costs skyrocket.

I'd say it's debatable. I think we've gotten ourselves in the rut of thinking we need more more more cutting edge when we may not. Look at Minecraft....arguably the most successful sandbox game ever without cutting edge graphics.

No guarantee it would work for an MMO (though one could argue WoW is still doing well on dated graphics), but I'm not sure if the right developer couldn't keep costs lower and still come out with a popular, successful product.

The problem is....it's a gamble. And investors don't like gambles.

[Viikkis]

If Blizzard would let fans run WoW the whole game would be nothing but pile of ash after 1 minute. Theres too many different players. I think keeping WoW alive and healthy for years is a nice succes.

[Raikh]

While that matter itself is fairly true its not explaining a sub loss or anything like that. You described two game models and just said that you liked the sand box model more and argued that the freedom it creates would generate a better game, but still not everyone might like that.

As you said pretty well, the players in classic made "features" like wpvp. But whats changed? That theres a kinda fix storyline you follow as a players doesn't imply that you can't create your own features using game mechanics. Wpvp was entirely player driven and ceased because of players. Blizz is even trying ti implement tools to make such gameplay easier possible.
A storyline needs progression, progression is created by actions. If all actions are free in an mmo the story would never be able to progress. In a single player game like Skyrikm its vastly easier to create a flexible environment where your actions influence story and tools are given to you creating a character by using more open game design, which partly is only cosmetic.

People will brun out either way. You can't expect to do the same thing for years without it getting boring. Also a game is not meant to be played 24/7 and while MMOs still offer that possibility there are restrictions not not let that go out of hand.

I would argue that this game is more community driven than you think. Sure the developer give you stuff to do and the story itself is very strict, but the developers interact with the community and wants to implement feaures allowing players more customization, easier access to community originated playstyles and so on.

A game is also not meant to be played forever and WoW is pretty old of course people will take a break. Not every Skyrim or whatever player plays it non stop for years. There are always dedicated exceptions in every kinda good game so that is nothing special.

In the end its just a different game design, which can only be judged by taste. Dungeons and dragons for example is abstracted close to zero, you have very basic rules and a basic idea of the world, the story and all is at players hands, ofcourse. But thats nothing a steady evolving video game can ever do its just a different thing in its very core.

[judgementofantonidas]

Wow is losing subs because the developers do not share the dream of the subscribers nor bow down to their wishes, gripes, complaints when developing the game.

Shortened wall of text.

World of Warcraft is THEIR world. We just live and play in it. World of Warcraft is not Dungeons and Dragons, or any of the RPG games that set the standard for what to expect in a fantasy game setting. Otherwise there would be less confusion over the good guys and the bad guys because traditionally the Horde races are not misunderstood as Blizzard tries to portray them, but they are Evil, Bad, and always out to do evilbad things.

People play WoW for many reasons and like to bitch about if for many more.

But the bottom line remains it is not YOUR story.

[Stir]

Its hurting the game and probably one of the main reason Blizzard can neve fix WPVP and people are getting burnt out and bored quicker than ever.

WoW is what you call a "themepark" MMO. Theme park MMOs are designed to set players on a set of rails, guiding them through the content of a game. The development team works on creating a very elaborate story or setting to deeply enhance the experience a player has. Whether this is through scripted events, quests, or mini-cut scenes, all of these things and more.

No matter how many times you ride the attractions, the details just never change. If you wait several years and go back, they are right there, waiting for you...just as you left them. While this could be fun the first few times, it gets boring quick and you could find yourself looking at other themeparks for new and more exciting rides.

Its like every expansion we have our path layed out for us. Its a simulation. Nothing we do changes anything. Its already given that you will kill the bad guy of that expansion unless Blizzard plans on writting him for future expansions. There are no consequences. You wipe on the Lich King, you come back next week to kill him. Doesn't feel very real does it? With current design of MMOs focused on progression, raiding is very important and that is how every one these days seem to judge any current MMO. That is what Blizzard seems to be doing as well.

WoW is so heavily driven by developers from the very start, new players begin with a set path to follow. The developer controls the experience, from the first time a player logs in with a new character and every time after, until that character achieves the level cap for that particular game. Developers restrict the attractions offered, often only allowing one ride at a time. In other words, once on there’s no turning back until the ride stops! Like you can see with capped Valor Points, gated reputations, daily lockouts and such.

Oh, goody... I see where THIS is heading....

Then you have the "Sandbox" MMOs. Sandbox MMOs are nearly the complete opposite of this. Rather than choosing a predestined path for players to follow, this development style allows for the creation of an open world in which players are free to discover their own adventure at their own pace. This is what a traditional MMO was and a lot of folks are actually looking for but just can't put a finger on what they really are looking for.

Ah, yes. The Sandbox Hype is here again!

You look at the "old schoool" MMOs such as Ultima Online, the taple top dungeons and dragons which were so player driven, it kept players interest. Its like an artist. You give him a blank cavas and he paints a masterpiece. That is what MMOs were. They gave you this world and you lived and created your memories.

Its amazing what some folks do in RPGs. Take Skyrim for example. I've read of players RP Hunters that don't only sleep out in the wild and eat only food that is hunted. Or Khajits that never enter a Hold during the day and only enter at night when everyone is at bed. These are small examples. Or even some that prefer to use these hardcores mods - Frostfall - which changes how the game is played. It hads a ton of realist mechanics to the game. This is for those looking to immerse themselves completely in the world. The game is "player driven". Players will keep coming back creating and living through new characters.

No. What a Sandbox game is, what it really is... Is boredom. To most people, not having a set goal is absolutely game-breaking. Ironically, those very SAME people often whine about how they prefer sandbox games (which they really do not). 'Sandbox' is a hype word. Games like Skyrim are bad for a couple of reasons, but let's take the sandbox element and describe why it is bad:
Players simply cannot be arsed. Sure; there's some people who really immerse themselves. They sit, by themselves, at a campfire and tell themselves they're hunters in the wild. Really, though? They're just sitting behind a computer doing nothing. No story advancement, no epic quest, no nothing. For a very, very small minority, that is computer game heaven... But for the rest of us, it's just a buzzword that sounds great (make up your own game! You decide your fate! Look at all the awesomeness! Bore the crap out of yourself!) but turns out to be an empty, bland experience.

People keep calling for Blizzard to save WPVP. The funny thing is that Blizzard didn't start WPVP. Folks look back at the good times at Tarren Mill or South Shore and the Horde and Alliance rivalry. Who created it? Its the players. The game was primarily driven by players early on. Sure Blizzard deserves credit for some amazing raids but its the players that actually kept you coming back. Alterac Valley for example. Blizzard has tried to hype up the Alliance vs Horde rivalry in Cataclysm and again is MoP but they keep failing at it. Its cause they never started it. The rivalry was player driven.

People no cry out to make it happen again. People used to cry on how it inconvenienced their game-play. The rivalry was also not player driven; it was lore-driven from the start. The fact that you had these two competing mega-factions caused a tribalist mentality. Coupled with people who either love to test their skills against other people OR love to grief people (two completely different things), it turns into world PvP.

Folks get burnt out quickly cause content is limited in a way. There are no incentives given for players to come up with their own content. So Blizzard piles us with more dailies thinking its the best way to give players something to do at 90. Again its all so linear.

The fun fact is that there is far more content, and far more to do overall, in WoW then there is in ANY sandbox game. Because it is story-driven. Because the developers work at it. And because players play to be entertained. If you let players decide, people get bored. Very, very quickly. Sure; a thempark game like WoW will run out of steam... But it lasts a lot longer than any sandbox game.

The reason Vanilla WoW actually is fondly remember is cause it still had a few "sandbox" elements. There was never a clear path. Not everyone was into raids. Raids were intended for the hardcore crowd. PVP was a grind. Folks got less burnt out. Sure those that raided got burnt out as well but that is the nature of raiding.

No. The reason Vanilla WoW is fondly remembered is because it was the first. Simple, really. Good memories of a time this magical world opened up to you. It's like fond childhood memories. It's like old television shows that really suck, but you really thought were great when you were younger because they introduced you to a whole new world of shows. The reason it's fondly remembered is nostalgia. Nothing more.

I can never figure out why its so hard to actually have MMOs designed around a traditional RPG design. That is what a lot of players seem to be actually calling for but simply can't point a finger at. There are only so many times you can run the same dungeon over and over again before it becomes mind numbing.

Because traditional RPG design has a Game Master who can railroad the players and at the same time adapt the story where necessary when the players make strange choices. The dynamic is completely different. And that's simply not possible in an ordinary computer game set-up. Maybe you should have a look at MUDs. Also, Neverwinter Nights has a multiplayer component where someone can be the Game Master and conjure up monsters or improvise conversations with NPCs. However, this kind of thing is strictly limited to direct control of a game master. Without that direct control, you'll have nothing.

It’s inevitable that everything in life eventually becomes old or boring and as a result, it was only natural that players of theme park MMOs have begun to cry for something different. That’s the magic a sandbox MMO can give that a theme park game never will. It may take extra effort on the part of a player to create reasons to explore and push further for themselves, but trust me when I say it is well worth the effort. Times are changing and the sandbox is becoming a welcome site to gamers new and old alike.

Time to take the stars out of your eyes. They're blinding you. Sandbox games are generally simply bad. They cannot hold someone's attention for very long, because the lack of a personal journey to follow simply makes the entire thing dull and boring. Sure, it'll be more fun at the start, when you're exploring the wide open world, but when you're confronted with the fact that nothing you do actually matters, boredom inevitably sets in.

Basically: A sandbox game is a game without content. And without content, people get bored.

[Pua]

How can any one write such a long ass text and base it on the completely fallacious premise that players burned out less when there was far less to do in the game? Such nonsense. Word count doesn't make your reasoning less absurd.

That's got to be the worst interpretation of what he said, especially because it was deliberate, and your only intention in posting at all is clearly to start an argument.

As per usual.

Do you not get bored of this?

[alany]

i'd rather just wait for new content(cant believe i just said that lol) would take less time than trying to make my own content that would be worth even playing through this sandbox concept seems like it would be interesting but likely only on a fool around/roleplaying level

[Kelzam]

Anyone who thinks this game would be better off if it were player driven needs to pull their head out of their ass and look at the community. You'd really want a game based around what users on MMO-Champion think it should be? That'd be the fastest way to kill an MMO ever.

[Faroth]

Shortened wall of text.

World of Warcraft is THEIR world. We just live and play in it. World of Warcraft is not Dungeons and Dragons, or any of the RPG games that set the standard for what to expect in a fantasy game setting. Otherwise there would be less confusion over the good guys and the bad guys because traditionally the Horde races are not misunderstood as Blizzard tries to portray them, but they are Evil, Bad, and always out to do evilbad things.

People play WoW for many reasons and like to bitch about if for many more.

But the bottom line remains it is not YOUR story.

The best thing Verant did when they launched EverQuest was the single phrase they put on the box, which pretty much summed up the motto of development.

"You're in OUR world now."

Though I really liked the way they'd screw with players by putting things in during patches, not mention them in patch notes, and let speculation from players go nuts. Sometimes it was just an art asset added to different places, crates with a peculiar mark showing up in a new dark elf camp and a semi-good but kind of neutral city. Players would go crazy trying to figure out if there was something out there to find or if a future story was forming an allegiance between the two cities, etc. And sometimes......it was nothing more than the developers just having fun with their players.

Other times they DID do something with it.

That's my biggest gripe about WoW. PTR and Patch Notes pretty much put everything in front of you like a menu. There's no reason to go just do random things and discover stuff when they lay it all out for you like a guided tour. Granted, the internet eventually spills the beans, but when nobody is clued in and it's just "in the game" potentially anywhere on any continent from launch to now.....then you've got some discovery to be had.

[Viikkis]

How does PvP grind make the game sandbox? Or hardcore raiding only? I dont get it.

[Deng]

I got burned in vanilla as much as today when everything that was new faded.
And if I want to play sandbox MMO I start the EVE, WoW was never close (or intended) to be a sandbox.

[Nihth]

Sandbox MMOs are like blank pieces of paper. I'm not an expert on sandbox MMOs, but as I understand it it's pretty much about "making your own content". Isn't that basically just roleplaying?

If I understand this correctly, he doesnt mean literally a sandbox MMO, but more sandbox than it currently is. As in not everything being calculated, say with the valor points cap or whatever.

[Stir]

If I understand this correctly, he doesnt mean literally a sandbox MMO, but more sandbox than it currently is. As in not everything being calculated, say with the valor points cap or whatever.

If that is the premise, then the reasoning boils down to 'I want nolifers to be more powerful than other gamers because I deserve more power, and screw your balance crap!'
I don't think that's the intention.

[Faroth]

Time to take the stars out of your eyes. They're blinding you. Sandbox games are generally simply bad. They cannot hold someone's attention for very long, because the lack of a personal journey to follow simply makes the entire thing dull and boring. Sure, it'll be more fun at the start, when you're exploring the wide open world, but when you're confronted with the fact that nothing you do actually matters, boredom inevitably sets in.

Basically: A sandbox game is a game without content. And without content, people get bored.

EverQuest has stood the test of time longer than WoW with far more sandbox elements than WoW has. Granted, it's not got as many players, especially not now. WoW wouldn't either if they divided their player base and didn't have the technology to upgrade aspects.

Still, from the design aspect, I'd say a blend of Sandbox and theme park is the way to go. Again, we'll have to see if EverQuest Next can pull off this amalgamation. And if they do, I'm comfortable saying I feel confident Blizzard will take elements from EQ Next to use in a future expansion.

Hell, Blizzard is already suggesting that WoD will have a more sand box elements in end game than previous expansions since they're going the Timeless Isle "go out and wander/explore/find stuff" route rather than daily quests that direct you where to go.

[Vightnic]

I don't think most people have the creativity, discipline, or attention span to make a Sandbox MMO work. You'll get a small dedicated base, but never the kind of sub numbers that WoW got. Sad fact is, most people want to be told what to do and have clear goals.

[Viikkis]

I love sandbox games like Minecraft but sandbox mmo's are boring imo.

[Joey Ray III]

well, wow was never much of a sandbox tbh. but yeah, it wasn't so linear and questing was a big thing for many people - i played the game for 6 months having awesome fun without even knowing this thing called 'raiding' existed.

old wow send you all over the place and traveling was a thing as well - if you wanted to get somewhere you had to go there and since it took time, you needed to find your own fun. that's how it was for me anyway.

a big part of old wow was also the players - the real old-school gamers who i think were much more imaginative and creative then this instant-gratification hungry 'gief nao!' bunch that is playing wow today.

lot of it is blizzards fault too - sometimes i wonder what the fuck were the thinking with all this queue here, portal there, quest hub A, quest hub B shit. so short sighted. ye, the game needed modernization but they got around it all wrong.

[imabanana]

While I like Sandbox MMOs myself, you will never see one as popular as WoW.

WoW has always been what it was intended to be, a Themepark MMO, this thread is pretty pointless. You've told most of us what we already know, bravo.

Southshore vs Tarren Mill was boring and only happened because there was nothing else to do. If Southshore vs Tarren Mill is also your idea of fantastic sandbox, then I'm speechless.

Ultima Online would be awful for the 'casual' gamer.

This is a reason sandbox mmo's are never that popular outside the hardcore crowd.

/signed

This is exactly what WoW is, and what Blizzard aimed for it to be. As said above, WoW isn't about writing your own story, it's about being told one. And this is part of why WoW has been so successful, when lots of more "sandbox-like" mmos were around 10 years ago.

If I want to have any impact on the world I'm in, I'll go and play Eve Online, not WoW.

[Stir]

EverQuest has stood the test of time longer than WoW with far more sandbox elements than WoW has. I'd say a blend of Sandbox and theme park is the way to go. Again, we'll have to see if EverQuest Next can pull off this amalgamation.

I highly doubt that, though. More choices for advancement does not make a sandbox game.