Best Sub opener?

[Deleted]

Hey,

I usually play combat but since my guild is progressing on HC siege i thought i would go sub for a bit more single target dmg. I have noticed from streams other sub rogues doing alot more burst than me and i assume that its prob my rotation since my gear is 575 and thats not gonna be the issue.

So what i do is

Prepot/stealth
Premeditation ( for 2 cps)
SS
Ambush
Ambush
SnD
Ambush
5 Cp Rupture and Hemo
Spam until FW runs out
ShD
Spam Until FW runs out
Shadow blades
Wait till that runs out
Vanish
Usual rotation.

Am i missing anything or is Rng just not on my side?

[Deleted]

I am nowhere near 575.. doing normal SoO atm, but this is mainly my exact rotation on sub.

[Deleted]

Well from what i have read using SB during ShD is slightly better but it feels kinda counter intuitive since FW gives true dmg anyway. Is it worth the extra cps? Considering Lust is used alot on the pull energy isnt gonna be a huge factor

[Squirl]

The ideal opener is:

Stealth
Premed
wait 17.9s
SnD
Pre-pot+Stealth <--pull
Garrote
Amb
Amb

The more practical version of this is:

Pre-pot+Stealth <--pull
Premed+SnD
Garrote
Amb
Amb

[Deleted]

The ideal opener is:

Stealth
Premed
wait 17.9s
SnD
Pre-pot+Stealth <--pull
Garrote
Amb
Amb

The more practical version of this is:

Pre-pot+Stealth <--pull
Premed+SnD
Garrote
Amb
Amb

Yeh i can def do the wait thing. I didnt really think about it too much i thought since cata the days of getting CPs before pull was over. Thanks.

[Kezuma]

i cant help asking myself why you all open with Garrote(45 energy) Ambush Ambush and not , Hemorrhage(30 energy) ambush ambush ??!!! 15 energy profit? just a tought

[mongoose6]

i cant help asking myself why you all open with Garrote(45 energy) Ambush Ambush and not , Hemorrhage(30 energy) ambush ambush ??!!! 15 energy profit? just a tought

Hemo only applies SV, garrote applies both SV and FW. Garrote > Hemo or any other opener if the target has niether SV or FW applied. Also, as far as the OP's rotation. There is no point in saving ShB for when FW falls off. ShB only effects melee auta attacks as far as bypassing armor. It's better to use it during when you have max FW uptime so that you can benifit from all of the extra combo points going towards more FW fueled Evis's.

[Soisoisoi]

Forgive my ignorance (I don't PvE as Rogue) - but would it not be beneficial to use Backstab instead of Ambush for the duration of Subterfuge seeing as it has a higher DPE outside of Shadow Dance? Garrote covers both SV and FW, and the only reason to Ambush would be to refresh FW for a second or two extra later on, but then that depends when you're going to Dance after the opener?

If you dance right after Subterfuge ends it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't need to refresh FW. Depending on lag you could also G>BS>BS>Ambush during Subterfuge too if you were delaying Shadow Dance.

[mongoose6]

Forgive my ignorance (I don't PvE as Rogue) - but would it not be beneficial to use Backstab instead of Ambush for the duration of Subterfuge seeing as it has a higher DPE outside of Shadow Dance? Garrote covers both SV and FW, and the only reason to Ambush would be to refresh FW for a second or two extra later on, but then that depends when you're going to Dance after the opener?

If you dance right after Subterfuge ends it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't need to refresh FW. Depending on lag you could also G>BS>BS>Ambush during Subterfuge too if you were delaying Shadow Dance.

That's a pretty decent idea, would give you the same number of combo points and theoretically more damage, the only drawback is that two BS and one ambush is 10 more energy than two Ambush. Even with very high haste and very low MS, it's still a bit dicey to get a garrote and two ambush in. I don't think G-BS-BS-Ambush would be physically possible.

[Deleted]

Forgive my ignorance (I don't PvE as Rogue) - but would it not be beneficial to use Backstab instead of Ambush for the duration of Subterfuge seeing as it has a higher DPE outside of Shadow Dance? Garrote covers both SV and FW, and the only reason to Ambush would be to refresh FW for a second or two extra later on, but then that depends when you're going to Dance after the opener?

If you dance right after Subterfuge ends it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't need to refresh FW. Depending on lag you could also G>BS>BS>Ambush during Subterfuge too if you were delaying Shadow Dance.

Ambush gives 2 cps while backstab gives 1. Ambush on 60 energy and backstab on 35 would mean backstab needs 10 more energy to produce the same amount of cps. Also im pretty sure Amb hits harder too probably not exactly 2x a BS considering possible crits.

[Soisoisoi]

That's a pretty decent idea, would give you the same number of combo points and theoretically more damage, the only drawback is that two BS and one ambush is 10 more energy than two Ambush. Even with very high haste and very low MS, it's still a bit dicey to get a garrote and two ambush in. I don't think G-BS-BS-Ambush would be physically possible.

Yup you're right, I completely forgot PvP set gives you another 30 energy. /brainfart

You could exclude the Ambush at the end though if you're going into a Dance shortly after, and as Shadohw above said it would be a CP difference. I'm fairly sure the DPE of BS is higher than Ambush though, but I'm not sure if that includes CP gain.

[mongoose6]

Yup you're right, I completely forgot PvP set gives you another 30 energy. /brainfart

You could exclude the Ambush at the end though if you're going into a Dance shortly after, and as Shadohw above said it would be a CP difference. I'm fairly sure the DPE of BS is higher than Ambush though, but I'm not sure if that includes CP gain.

You could exclude the Ambush on the pull if you prefer to use ShD before FW runs out. IMO, it's best as sub in a PVE environment to maximise the amount of FW uptime for a given fight. In order to to that, you would need to ambush at the last possible moment for each iteration of subterfuge and only clip FW by a second so that your FW applying ambush is effected by the previous application of FW.

[Enhshamanlol]

I do something like

Pre-pot+Stealth <--pull
Premed+SnD
ambush
hemo
rupture ( gotta get dem 150k ticks)
SB/SD
ambush and evis like normal

[Kael]

Looking past the exact opener Squirl mentioned, we did some searching in sub a ways back (anyone want to find the thread?) and it showed an advantage to NOT holding ShadowDance/Shadowblades until FW ends, since trinkets should proc at the very start. The increased auto-attack damage (no missing during SB) and additional combo points under FW*Trinkets was causing it to pull ahead.

It's possible I'm remembering this wrong, will see if I can locate the thread.

[mongoose6]

Looking past the exact opener Squirl mentioned, we did some searching in sub a ways back (anyone want to find the thread?) and it showed an advantage to NOT holding ShadowDance/Shadowblades until FW ends, since trinkets should proc at the very start. The increased auto-attack damage (no missing during SB) and additional combo points under FW*Trinkets was causing it to pull ahead.

It's possible I'm remembering this wrong, will see if I can locate the thread.

It can be a gain to do so providing that you ShD/SB while still under the effects of your potion and your trinket procs. This is especially true for when hero is used on the pull. The efficacy of this strat also improves with improved versions of AoC as you really don't lose any FW uptime due to pre-med fueled double vanishes extending your FW uptime into your next ShD. I wouldn't say that it's always a gain to ShD/SB on the pull and clip your FW from opening, but alot of times its the best route.

One of the really nice things about his tier is all of the trinkets with ICD's. I have a weak aura that lets me know when a. my trinket ICD is 10 sec or less, b. my ShD CD is 10 sec or less, c. my SB CD is 10 sec or less (It displays text at the top of the screen "Perfect Storm"). This gives me a heads up during the course of the fight for the perfect time to pop my second pot and possibly delay the usage of one or two CD's.