0.23% of Players Defeated Heroic Garrosh

[Duridi]

I did read the first line I just wondered where you were going with your posts. It appears to be yet another post about the lowly casuals wanting instant gratification whilst heroic raiders are above such petty nonsense.

It is laughable to suggest that WOW is not all about gear, no-one would run the content on offer multiple times if it was not for gear.

You are generalizing, and I honestly do not see the connection between Klogaroth's post and your reply. You seem to be reading what you want to read.

It is not a fact that everyone raids, or do anything in this game, because of gear. Gear is a huge factor in this game, as it's used as reward in pretty much every aspect of the game. It is also a tool which will help you defeat more challenging content. This does not mean it's the only thing that drives people into playing. People get different satisfaction from playing, and some will not give a rats ass about gear, while others will be the exact oposite. Then you have those in between. That's just how it is. Saying everyone plays to get gear, is stupid and narrowminded.

I am an ex raider, and I have never cared for gear. I raided to prove to myself that I could beat challenging encounters, and I raided because I found the teamwork required from organised raiding at a more challenging level, thrilling. I also liked the mechanics and my role in the raid. It was fun, and it offered me gameplay I could not obtain solo. The gear was nothing more than a tool, helping my team progress quicker, or beat something we could not beat without it. I enjoyed optimizing my gear too, but this came with TBC and had nothing to do with obtaining gear. It was about utilizing what I already had equipped, comparing and mixing stats. In vanilla, I didn't understand gear very well, because the rest of the game was more appealing.

You are basicly telling me I don't exist, but I am sorry. I just don't find gear a motivator.

[Dungeonravor]

Cool fight, glad I have been able to kill him

[Pann]

In reference to a previous post of yours - every good game is a skinner box. That's what gaming is built on. It is not an insult to WoW no matter how much you try to make it one.

Secondly, look at all the content in WoW that offers 0 gear upgrade and is still run. There's your argument gone in one. WoW is NOT all about gear, people DO run content multiple times with no gear upgrade.

That is subject for debate. I am not sure why you a) think that I am trying to insult WOW by mentioning MMOs not just WOW are skinner boxes and b) think that as inanimate product WOW would take offense.

The subject of the thread is about raids therefore I would have though the context of my comment would be obviously be in regards to raiding. Typical behaviour is that guilds run raids until either most of their raiders have all or close to all the gear they need at which point activity will decline or they run it until the next tier is released and they abandon the current one. There will undoubtedly be people that run content for reasons other than gear but as a whole it is primary motivator at max level. I don't know why you think this is a bad thing.

[Raiju]

I don't know why you're bringing it up if it is a) not used for any point and b) not true for the whole playerbase

That makes it both incorrect and irrelevant..

[Pann]

You are generalizing, and I honestly do not see the connection between Klogaroth's post and your reply. You seem to be reading what you want to read.

It is not a fact that everyone raids, or do anything in this game, because of gear. Gear is a huge factor in this game, as it's used as reward in pretty much every aspect of the game. It is also a tool which will help you defeat more challenging content. This does not mean it's the only thing that drives people into playing. People get different satisfaction from playing, and some will not give a rats ass about gear, while others will be the exact oposite. Then you have those in between. That's just how it is. Saying everyone plays to get gear, is stupid and narrowminded.

I am an ex raider, and I have never cared for gear. I raided to prove to myself that I could beat challenging encounters, and I raided because I found the teamwork required from organised raiding at a more challenging level, thrilling. I also liked the mechanics and my role in the raid. It was fun, and it offered me gameplay I could not obtain solo. The gear was nothing more than a tool, helping my team progress quicker, or beat something we could not beat without it. I enjoyed optimizing my gear too, but this came with TBC and had nothing to do with obtaining gear. It was about utilizing what I already had equipped, comparing and mixing stats. In vanilla, I didn't understand gear very well, because the rest of the game was more appealing.

You are basicly telling me I don't exist, but I am sorry. I just don't find gear a motivator.

If raiders only raid for the challenge then why once they have beaten the challenge do they need to run the content again? If the gear rewards were removed from raiding it would die within weeks.

Achievements are without doubt a factor but players were repeating raids multiple times in Classic and TBC before their introduction which leads us to the common factor throughout WOW's lifetime - gear. You may point to rep but increasing reputations, when current, once again lead to rewards that are either actual gear or increase the power of player's gear through enchants or gems. Once you boil everything down the majority of max level activities offer rewards that either directly award gear, allow extra ways to acquire gear or increase the power of a player's existing gear. Even pet battles, one of the most casual in activities, awards charms thats only use is to turn in for extra rolls for gear.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your character and the primary way of doing so in WOW is through gear.

[Raiju]

If raiders only raid for the challenge then why once they have beaten the challenge do they need to run the content again? If the gear rewards were removed from raiding it would die within weeks.

Achievements are without doubt a factor but players were repeating raids multiple times in Classic and TBC before their introduction which leads us to the common factor throughout WOW's lifetime - gear. You may point to rep but increasing reputations, when current, once again lead to rewards that are either actual gear or increase the power of player's gear through enchants or gems. Once you boil everything down the majority of max level activities offer rewards that either directly award gear, allow extra ways to acquire gear or increase the power of a player's existing gear. Even pet battles, one of the most casual in activities, awards charms thats only use is to turn in for extra rolls for gear.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your character and the primary way of doing so in WOW is through gear.

I have almost 10000 charms. I am not doing pet battles for gear.

You also seem to completely ignore (or not able to comprehend) the social element of raiding, which for many is the *main* reason to raid.

[Firebert]

I don't think this difficulty curve is very good, and I think the reasons are obvious.

[Raiju]

The only bad thing about that curve is that flex dips off before normal, imo.

[KaPe]

The only bad thing about that curve is that flex dips off before normal, imo.

Why? Hardest boss in Flex being more difficult than easiest boss on normal is nothing strange. It would be pretty much the same in Heroic, except you "need" to kill normal Garrosh before getting access to it.

[Raiju]

Why? Hardest boss in Flex being more difficult than easiest boss on normal is nothing strange. It would be pretty much the same in Heroic, except you "need" to kill normal Garrosh before getting access to it.

The entirety of parts 3 and 4 is not the last boss, it's nearly half the instance.

[Pann]

I have almost 10000 charms. I am not doing pet battles for gear.

You also seem to completely ignore (or not able to comprehend) the social element of raiding, which for many is the *main* reason to raid.

You have the passed the point at which charms are useful but it is undeniable that pet battles award charms and the only use for them is for extra rolls which in turn give a chance at gaining gear. Therefore even a casual activity has rewards that lead to gear.

I would have thought that the social aspect of being in a guild and that it is enjoyable to perform activities as a guild was a given. It still does not change the fact most guilds will abandon a raid and rarely go back to it as soon as a new tier is released.

There is nothing wrong with raiding for gear I honestly don't see why you are trying to prove otherwise.

[Firebert]

The only bad thing about that curve is that flex dips off before normal, imo.

And that it only starts 2/3rds of the way up the chart, and that less than 40% of people are seeing the content made for them...

[kamuimac]

The entirety of parts 3 and 4 is not the last boss, it's nearly half the instance.

thing is its not flex a bit too hard - its the normals starting a little to low this tier so that crybabies dont cry so much about stuff like horridon normal a brick wall for most lat tier -_- normal mode should be min. 10-15 % harder tuned at least first 13 bosses -_-

[Raiju]

thing is its not flex a bit too hard - its the normals starting a little to low this tier so that crybabies dont cry so much about stuff like horridon normal a brick wall for most lat tier -_- normal mode should be min. 10-15 % harder tuned at least first 13 bosses -_-

I think normal is fine, but flex didn't pick up too fantastically it seems. It should be better next expansion when flex is renamed normal and flex/normal have the same scaling mechanic.

@Firebert, some people aren't interested in raiding. 70% is fine. There's also nothing stopping the guy who queued first part LFR from queueing second/third/fourth, other than his own lack of interest.

[Firebert]

@Firebert, some people aren't interested in raiding. 70% is fine.

39% isn't, to be honest.

[Raiju]

39% isn't, to be honest.

I have no idea what you're referencing. As stated anyone who starts LFR can complete LFR - they just aren't interested in doing it.

[Pann]

I have no idea what you're referencing. As stated anyone who starts LFR can complete LFR - they just aren't interested in doing it.

Yeah, and people tend not to be interested in paying for things that don't interest them so it is a massive problem that normal, flex and to a lesser extent LFR are not holding players' interests.

[Raiju]

Yeah, and people tend not to be interested in paying for things that don't interest them so it is a massive problem that normal, flex and to a lesser extent LFR are not holding players' interests.

Well, what on earth is wrong with that if they are happy with other aspects of the game? This is what the game was built on, raiding. You suddenly remove raiding and you have at least 40% of the player base not doing what they usually do and pay for, larger than any other segment of the game I imagine.

[Madruga]

Yeah, and people tend not to be interested in paying for things that don't interest them so it is a massive problem that normal, flex and to a lesser extent LFR are not holding players' interests.

Well, what is your idea? Removing raiding from the game? What would take its place?

[Xarkan]

Less then .05% completed naxx at current content in vanilla. The fact of the matter is .23% is still way too low for 4 months into the tier. It should be more around 2-3%

That should be seen in a context of fewer % of the players raiding at all in vanilla and a lower % of the "raiders" moving out of MC and a lower % of those moving out of MC (and thus into BWL) moving on to AQ40/Naxx40