Originally Posted by
Xelaeno
Hi folks, my guild's going 25m soon so I'm looking for a sort of a master list of how everything is scaled in 25M. If you can help me fill out the following it'd be much appreciate it.
Immerseus
10M: We use 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 dps
25M: Can this fight be 1 tanked on 25M?
There are two significant things to know about 25-man HC Immerseus - I would not advise 1-tanking it, as the adds + boss will most likely kill your tank, and your DPS no longer need to pay strict attention to their stacks of Swelling Corruption, as the boss still only has 50 stacks in 25-man. If you are adamantly determined to 1-tank it, you will most likely need to rotate externals on the tank.
Protectors
10M: There's 2 sw:bane going out per cast. There's 1 mark going out from He's desperate measure, and 1 orange circle to be soaked from Rook's desperate measure.
25M: How many sw:banes will be going out per cast? And how many mark? Can the tank still soak mark? How many orange circle thingy that need to be stacked/soaked will come out during Rook's desperate measure?
The adds do not increase in number, only HP. SW: Bane is, according to my 25-man experienced healer acquaintances, less problematic in 25-man, and can more or less be handled through mass dispels. I would strongly advise against throwing the mark to a tank, and if you absolutely feel you must, throw it to the He tank - the Rook tank will likely not survive the armour reduction unless they are a monk.
Norushen
10M: We send 1 healer+1dps, then 1 tank+1dps, then rest of the dps in pairs, so a total of 8 people go down until the boss is killed, we hero at 50%.
25M: How many people should we send down per round of orbs without getting overwhelmed by adds? I have seen guilds do a group of 5 each time so after 5 rounds, everyone would have gone down and got purified, then they lust and burn. I have also seen guilds with a dedicated adds killing team, so they'd have a group that never goes down who's only job is to kill the adds for the whole fight. What is recommended?
The 5-group strategy is sound, but requires rotating raid CDs for when adds come up. You should not need a dedicated add-killing team unless your raiders are severely prone to tunneling; you may however need to assign specific orb-soakers, as tanks cannot soak every orb bar one on this fight like they can in 10-man.
Sha of Pride
10M: There's 2 debuff going out at once and only 1 healer getting the titan so using 2 healers we just have both of them dispel on CD regardless of titan buff, lust at the start and burn the boss. There's 2 prisons going out at once, the tanks get one prison and the rdps get the other.
25M: Can this fight be 4 healed? Can it be 3 healed? How many debuffs will go out? Is lusting at the start still recommended? How many prisons will go out?
I do not remember how many debuffs go out, but bringing 5 healers and simply having them dispel on CD regardless of whether they have Gift has worked in the GDKPs I've done. If your DPS is good, you can still lust at the start, especially since the last phase is generally more manageable in 25-man due to an abundance of raid CDs. 4 prisons will go out, and you should assign a group to each prison. You will also need to ride your raid's ass about soaking rifts to an even greater degree than in 10-man - in my experience, as pertains to rifts, 25-mans tend to suffer from Bystander Syndrome.
Galakras
10M: For tower group, we sent a group of 5 to tower: 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. For last phase, we have everyone stack up and just heal through the orbs until the boss is dead.
25M: How many people is recommended for tower group? Is the final phase still doable using the stack and burn strat?
We usually send 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 DPS for each tower. At current gear levels, stack-and-burn is perfectly viable.
Iron Jugg
10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. Tanks soak all the bombs. We lust at the start.
25M: How many bombs will be coming out of the boss? Can the tanks still get all of them?
Tanks can still get all the bombs, but you will generally have many classes with immunities that can help soak. If you so wish, it may be easier to simply assign players with immunities (or players to be HoP'ed) that soak waves - this mostly in case you have low-mobility tanks like Prot Paladins and Blood DKs.
Dark Shaman
10M: 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We tank them together at the start, and sort of half together towards the end, walk the two bosses around the room in a clockwise fashion, and leave all the crap they drop behind us.
25M: I hear it's easier to 3 tank this, if so, how do you divide up the groups? How many dps/healer on each boss? And how do you position them?
The heroic version of the encounter is 3-tanked by all but the foolhardiest in both sizes. 2 tanks up top, 4? healers (enough to ensure tanks never have Toxic Mist, and preferably no Mistweavers to avoid Tombs in melee), all of your melee up top. Disc priests and a warrior or monk tank + all your ranged downstairs. You can also do this with all your melee downstairs to be completely sure you will not get Iron Tombs in melee, but your melee will loathe you for it.
General Naz.
10M: Depending on our dps, we usually pop hero during berzerk stance when the boss gets low, and ignore the adds coming out at 10%, stun/cc and have them tanked on the opposite side of the room and just burn the boss
25M: How many adds will be coming out each round? When do you hero? Can you ignore the adds toward the end?
Number of adds is the same, but with more HP. Lust at 10-12%, preferably outside of defensive stance. You can ignore adds towards the end, but the risk of your tank being killed by the adds and them running rampant is significantly higher. Also note that tanks may need externals in Berserker Stance as the damage is quite high.
Malkorok
10M: There's 3 purple swirls that need to be soaked after each smash. We use lust at the start.
25M: How many purple swirls are there? How do you assign people to soak stuff? I feel it will be more chaotic on 25M simply because the number of bodies...how many healers do you use? Is the number of smashes still 3?
7 pools spawn on 25-man, as well as 3 Living Corruption adds, compared to 3 and 1 respectively in 10-man. You still want to assign your players to specific quadrants to soak, and your melee must help tanks bring the adds on top of the boss. Due to the nature of the Displaced Energy debuff on Heroic, if you do not have 2 druids (one feral and a symbiosed warrior may work), you cannot stack during Blood Rage. Overall, so long as your healer setup brings many externals, it is safer to let a tank solo-soak the Blood Rage, although this will mean neither they nor the healers can use any CDs at all outside of this phase.
You will still get 3 smashes, and I would recommend 5 healers at the very most.
Spoils
10M: 5 people on each side, 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps. Both side lust on Mogu big box when they get there. There's 2 pandas to kill at the start for each side
25M: How many pandas do we need to kill? And can this fight be 4 healed (2 heals on each side)? Anything else we need to know?
There are still 2 pandas. On Heroic, 4-healing is basically a necessity. You will want to open the boxes in an order closely resembling the following - Both pandas, first large and 2 smalls, mediums to 34 (never two golems at once), second large and two more smalls. This will bring you to 50 energy with as few sparks as possible. It is advised to drag the large crate adds into the middle of the room so your tanks and DPS may cleave onto the sparks and statues. You will still want to lust on Mogu side.
Thok
10M: We use 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 6 dps. We do Poison -> Ice -> Flame and lust at the start.
25M: How many healers do you recommend? Is the door order of Poison -> Ice -> Flame still work on 25m? Anything else that's different? How much more health does the jailers have? Can the tank/melee handle the jailers fine on their own?
On heroic, in current gear, I hear of guilds bringing as many as 7-8 healers - it all depends on how many strong raid CDs and silence-immunities like HoP and Devo Aura you have available. At no point can you go above 29 stacks, as the 30th stack on heroic will one-shot your raid. Poison, Ice, Fire is still the most commonly seen order, but be aware that you may need to shorten the Poison phase if your healers are not strong, as the raid damage when both Screeches and Bat AoE are going out is tremendous. So long as ranged DoT the jailer, tanks and melee should be able to finish it off in due time.
Siegecrafter
10M: We have one person take care of the odd belts and one person take care of even belts. We always kill the mines, and if not, we kill the laser beam. We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps for this fight.
25M: How many people do we need per belt? Can a person solo it? How about the shredders? Do we need rdps to switch and help out the tanks? Any other tip?
Only certain tanks (warriors, basically) are reliably capable of killing the shredder with anything less than 4 stacks, and so your tanks will want to do something along the likes of:
First Shredder: MT 3 stacks, OT 0. MT kills.
Second Shredder: MT 5 stacks, OT 2. MT kills.
Third Shredder: MT 0 stacks, OT 5. OT kills.
You can repeat this order indefinitely; the MT will want to use 3-minute DPS CDs for the first shredder in this order.
On 25-man, you will want very strong, bursty comps for the belts. During heroism (that is to say, the first belt), it seems the belt can be done with 3 players. All belts beyond this seem to require, at the very least, 4 players, and these must be geared out the wazoo. To be absolutely safe, I would recommend 5. On 25-man, it is generally preferable to always kill drills and deal with mines instead, as you will have slows, stuns, roots and powerful AoE classes in greater abundance. If you cannot kill the drills, kill the magnet.
Note that the heroic-only mechanic simply empowers certain weapons to work differently at certain times, but that this does not significantly change the way in which you approach the fight. On both 25 Normal and 25 HC, I would recommend always dealing with mines rather than drills.
Paragon
10M: Kill order: Dissector -> Blood seeker -> Prime -> Swarm -> Poison -> Manipulator -> Locus -> Lucid -> Wind
25M: Is the order still okay? How many aim beams do the Swarm guy cast? How many koroch thingy do the Manipulator do per cast? Anything else we need to know?
The order you have stated works for Normal mode only. Due to the heroic nature of the mutations Rik'kal applies, your tanks must let a set number of injections through, otherwise mutated players will die. On 10-man, the first injection must be let through, and on 25-man, the first injection must be let through, followed by another injection after the second mutation. Additionally, you cannot break the Amber on Heroic without the buff from Ka'roz, and seeing as it is preferable to leave him alive til last, you will need to do the following: Kill Skeer - Wait for 4th cast of Mutation, kill Rik'kal - DPS Korven to 55-60% HP - DPS Ka'roz below 50% HP (this is to bait a cast of Amber on Ka'roz) - kill Korven - kill Hisek - lust and kill Xaril - kill Iyyokuk - kill Kaz'tik - kill Kil'ruk - kill Ka'roz. Raid damage will be very high while Iyyokuk is up, and tank damage during the last 3-4 Paragons will be ludicrously high - to the point where when Ka'roz is the last bug standing, your tanks may very well be one-shot through their active mitigation if externals are not rotated on them.
The normal-mode version of the encounter is basically unchanged on 25-man. You will want to do exactly the same as on 10-man. You will simply need more people soaking an Aim, and Kunchongs will have more health, but there will not be additional spawns.
Garrosh
10M: We use 2 tanks 2 healers and 6 dps. We use the stack strat for P1, everyone just stack, kill weapon that falls on top of us, and then aoe adds+garrosh. For p3, we ignore the adds, clean up the MC, and burn the boss
25M: Will the stack strat still work for 25M? How many dps do we need to kill the engineer (is 1 dps still sufficient)? How many MC goes out per cast? Can the adds be ignored in P3?
Stacking constantly is not a viable tactic for anything but the first weapon on Heroic, which you will be cleaving down during lust. Warbringers on Heroic will fixate on random raid members, and thus the raid damage during this phase is extremely high. You have 16 seconds to do the first intermission before it is generally accepted that wiping is necessary; the order of intermissions is fixed on Heroic, and you will therefore always get Jade Serpent, Terrace, Red Crane, although if you see a 3rd intermission, you are most likely screwed anyway. On 25-man, you may want to consider bringing a 3rd tank to kite the adds instead of attempting to kill them, seeing as the likelyhood of screw-ups increases proportionately with number of raiders present. I will not speak of the last, Heroic-only phase, as I have yet to see this in person and thus cannot comment adequately on how it is best handled.
You should be able to handle the Engineer with 3 strong burst classes, and as far as I am aware, there are 5 MCs during each MC.
The normal-mode version of this encounter does not change significantly outside of greater add (including Engineer) HP and more MC'ed players. You should still be able to stack and cleave on Normal, as well as ignore p3 adds.
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