Does fury need an overhaul?

[CollisionTD]

Yes, it is. Because there are more stats than Crit in this game. Just because you can stack enough to make it work doesn't mean it's poor design to have 1 stat be everything and the rest be garbage, and the people who make the damn game clearly agree with that fact since they keep talking about fixing other stats value for warriors.

Strength/crit/mastery are all very strong stats for fury. Haste is the only outlier, and it's really not that hard to avoid one bad stat.

When they're talking about fixing stat values, they're talking about haste, and only haste.

Don't forget that there will be new secondaries next tier:

Amplification
Cooldown Reduction
Multistrike

Amplification/Multistrike will be strong stats for Fury. Cooldown reduction will depend on what they reduce, and will probably have strict breakpoints such as getting storm bolt to 20 seconds.

If absolutely nothing was changed about fury, this is how stats will look like going into next tier:

Strength: 1
Crit: 0.9
Mastery: 0.7
Haste: 0.3
Amplification: 0.6
Multistrike: 0.7
CDR: (???)

Crit's worth a lot for fury, there's no denying that, but I think people really overestimate the difference between crit and the other stats. Haste will be the only trash stat, and that can be fixed by applying a 200% modifier to it.

[Deleted]

Strength/crit/mastery are all very strong stats for fury. Haste is the only outlier, and it's really not that hard to avoid one bad stat.

When they're talking about fixing stat values, they're talking about haste, and only haste.

Don't forget that there will be new secondaries next tier:

Amplification
Cooldown Reduction
Multistrike

Amplification/Multistrike will be strong stats for Fury. Cooldown reduction will depend on what they reduce, and will probably have strict breakpoints such as getting storm bolt to 20 seconds.

If absolutely nothing was changed about fury, this is how stats will look like going into next tier:

Strength: 1
Crit: 0.9
Mastery: 0.7
Haste: 0.3
Amplification: 0.6
Multistrike: 0.7
CDR: (???)

Crit's worth a lot for fury, there's no denying that, but I think people really overestimate the difference between crit and the other stats. Haste will be the only trash stat, and that can be fixed by applying a 200% modifier to it.

Those are some wild assumptions. How would you know the ratings needed for 1% Multistrike etc.?
I mean the only thing that people can say for sure is that Amplification will most likely start out weak and become stronger and stronger the more gear you get. CDR will be just as you said, the stat your shooting for to hit some important Breakpoints, such as stormbolt 20sec.

But guessing the scaling factors just cant be done now, without knowing how warrior will be changed and/or how secondary stats will operate/convert.

Also there is more than 1 option to fix haste. I for one believe they should add haste scaling to every single dot in the game, so there wont be more balance issues with haste anymore. That would most certainly buff haste alot and would even make it insanely strong for the current Arms model.

[Archimtiros]

Yes, it is. Because there are more stats than Crit in this game. Just because you can stack enough to make it work doesn't mean it's poor design to have 1 stat be everything and the rest be garbage, and the people who make the damn game clearly agree with that fact since they keep talking about fixing other stats value for warriors.

Yeah it really isn't as bad as you think. Proper Gemming and Reforging goes a long way towards helping, though I know many lazy players don't want to have to put in the work to not just gem all primary stats like most other classes.

Haste definitely is garbage, but again, that's where reforging comes in and EVERY spec has a terrible stat, just like EVERY spec has a great stat. Realistically, Haste is better than Hit when above 7.5% so I guess you could complain about that as well? There was a time when we actively tried to reach dw hit cap.

The only real defining aspect of Crit for Fury is how it is stronger than Strength, which is not the norm where other classes are concerned. This doesn't make it terrible design.

And to clarify the "people who make the damn game" are fixing other stat values for Warriors is aimed at bringing Haste up to match Mastery/Crit levels; not bringing Crit down. And the only real reason it is a concern is because of the removal of Reforging and (many) gems/enchants.

- - - Updated - - -

Those are some wild assumptions. How would you know the ratings needed for 1% Multistrike etc.?
I mean the only thing that people can say for sure is that Amplification will most likely start out weak and become stronger and stronger the more gear you get. CDR will be just as you said, the stat your shooting for to hit some important Breakpoints, such as stormbolt 20sec.

But guessing the scaling factors just cant be done now, without knowing how warrior will be changed and/or how secondary stats will operate/convert.

Also there is more than 1 option to fix haste. I for one believe they should add haste scaling to every single dot in the game, so there wont be more balance issues with haste anymore. That would most certainly buff haste alot and would even make it insanely strong for the current Arms model.

They aren't wild at all. Rating is irrelevant, and he didn't mention them for a reason. His numbers are simply a scaling comparison to Strength; ie:

If Strength is worth 1 point; Crit is worth 0.9 out of 1 (think if 1 point of Strength was worth 10 dps, 1 point of Crit would be worth 9 dps, the actual number is irrelevant, its simply a comparison).
If Strength (at 1) is worth 10 dps per point; Haste (at .3) would be worth 3 dps.

Make sense now? It's actually very easy to do with SimCraft, unless they were to wildly change how they (or Warriors) work, all the stats are already in the game, so its easy to model.

There are a lot of options to fix haste, but only a couple of them really make enough of a difference to be worth while.
There was a long thread about it in these forums already, that Collision actually started.

[Deleted]

They aren't wild at all. Rating is irrelevant, and he didn't mention them for a reason. His numbers are simply a scaling comparison to Strength; ie:

If Strength is worth 1 point; Crit is worth 0.9 out of 1 (think if 1 point of Strength was worth 10 dps, 1 point of Crit would be worth 9 dps, the actual number is irrelevant, its simply a comparison).
If Strength (at 1) is worth 10 dps per point; Haste (at .3) would be worth 3 dps.

Make sense now? It's actually very easy to do with SimCraft, unless they were to wildly change how they (or Warriors) work, all the stats are already in the game, so its easy to model.

There are a lot of options to fix haste, but only a couple of them really make enough of a difference to be worth while.
There was a long thread about it in these forums already, that Collision actually started.

Sorry, as much as I respect yours and his opinion, since you are both good theorycrafters and from what i can see good players aswell, but this is just not true.
You can´t give the relative scaling values (i am aware that they are normalized to the value of strength) without knowing anything about how the ratings convert. You could maybe guess how it might look like, but giving exact numbers just doesnt make sense at all since nobody (not even blizzard) knows how they are going to convert ratings into actual percentages. And even if you knew the percentages, you couldnt know how those percentages convert into actual damage, since you dont know the mechanics in WoD.

[sjsctt]

Sorry, as much as I respect yours and his opinion, since you are both good theorycrafters and from what i can see good players aswell, but this is just not true.
You can´t give the relative scaling values (i am aware that they are normalized to the value of strength) without knowing anything about how the ratings convert. You could maybe guess how it might look like, but giving exact numbers just doesnt make sense at all since nobody (not even blizzard) knows how they are going to convert ratings into actual percentages. And even if you knew the percentages, you couldnt know how those percentages convert into actual damage, since you dont know the mechanics in WoD.

I actually do agree with you. We have no way to know how the stat values will scale for us, where the breakpoints will be, ect...

For instance, a BM Monk's mastery looked amazing on paper in t14. Then comes the breakdown of it takes 100000000000 to make a .001% change. It simply wasn't worth it for them to gem or gear mastery at that point. I know, different class, different situation, but blizzard will do their best to make everyone scale at a similar rate, and if those values were accurate and live, we would probably scale better than anyone.

TLDR: <3 you Collision and Arch, but this dude has a point

[CollisionTD]

I didn't mean for the numbers to be absolute, it was just a relative ranking of what they would look like assuming blizzard doesn't do really retarded rating conversions. Mastery has been the only stat that doesn't have a consistent conversion for all specs, everything else (ignoring haste for warriors) has been consistent. x amount of crit rating gives you 1% of crit, no matter what spec you are.

Now, they COULD go off the deep end and decide to individually tweak the conversions on every stat for every spec in an effort to balance all stats. That would certainly work, but it would be incredibly confusing to everyone.

But if they don't, then they'll make y multistrike rating = x% multistrike for all specs. They're going to make the stat at least useful to most specs, which means giving it a reasonable rating conversion so that people use it, and as long as the rating conversion is reasonable, it's going to be a good stat for fury (as it will be for most specs).

I guess a better way of saying it would have been str > crit > multistrike > mastery = amplification >>>> haste.

[Deleted]

I didn't mean for the numbers to be absolute, it was just a relative ranking of what they would look like assuming blizzard doesn't do really retarded rating conversions. Mastery has been the only stat that doesn't have a consistent conversion for all specs, everything else (ignoring haste for warriors) has been consistent. x amount of crit rating gives you 1% of crit, no matter what spec you are.

Now, they COULD go off the deep end and decide to individually tweak the conversions on every stat for every spec in an effort to balance all stats. That would certainly work, but it would be incredibly confusing to everyone.

But if they don't, then they'll make y multistrike rating = x% multistrike for all specs. They're going to make the stat at least useful to most specs, which means giving it a reasonable rating conversion so that people use it, and as long as the rating conversion is reasonable, it's going to be a good stat for fury (as it will be for most specs).

I guess a better way of saying it would have been str > crit > multistrike > mastery = amplification >>>> haste.

Yes i agree with the prediction of the relative rankings, as long as mechanics are staying the same and Blizzard is doing reasonable things to the new secondary stats.

However, i would predict for amplification to become really strong in the last patch of the expansion, if its anything like the current amp trinkets. This would be true for basically all classes, since the more secondary stats you already have the stronger amplification gets.

[CollisionTD]

Amplification is going to be a weird stat just because it'll be sub-optimal for EVERY spec first tier, and slowly gain value over time. I wonder if they're planning to tweak the conversion to ensure people use it some over the expansion.

Multistrike is 'crit, jr.', it's crit without the enrage proc. For classes that gain little from having abilities crit, if the conversion is more favorable than crit, crit will be avoided, otherwise they'll avoid multistrike. My guess is that they will give it a very favorable conversion to ensure all specs use it, but fury/fire will be left out due to the necessity that the ability crit.

I don't think cooldown reduction is going to work out early for us. If it does, it'll be very gamey as we'll be swapping out pieces of gear each fight for it.

Example:
On Garrosh, aoe tends to happen every 40~ seconds, which is perfect for the CDR trinket. With CDR as a stat, we would have to swap out pieces of gear to push our cooldowns down to a level where bladestorm is available to use each time, but not push them too far as then it is a wasted stat.

Now, swapping gear out isn't nearly as painful in WoD as it is now. Not having to worry about hit/exp/reforging just means we could keep a few CDR-heavy pieces in our bags and swap as needed. But is min/maxing that sort of thing fun every encounter? That's a question we'll have to answer over this expansion. CDR could also present a similar problem that armor penetration had, in that you need to stack it to a certain level before it becomes a dominant enough stat. Having storm bolt on a 24 second cooldown would just be annoying.

[Archimtiros]

Sorry, as much as I respect yours and his opinion, since you are both good theorycrafters and from what i can see good players aswell, but this is just not true.
You can´t give the relative scaling values (i am aware that they are normalized to the value of strength) without knowing anything about how the ratings convert. You could maybe guess how it might look like, but giving exact numbers just doesnt make sense at all since nobody (not even blizzard) knows how they are going to convert ratings into actual percentages. And even if you knew the percentages, you couldnt know how those percentages convert into actual damage, since you dont know the mechanics in WoD.

Well all we can do is guess at the moment, as there is no hint that they would have any reason to make them inconsistent, its a pretty fair theory (hence, theorycrafting). And I really don't see any reason for them to make them quirky as all hell, it's much harder on us and them from a design standpoint (though quite possibly better for balance).

Honestly, we still have a long ways to go until we get any real clue as to how exactly things will be tuned; it's all speculation for now, we just make educated guesses based on information at hand. Guess should have been a bit more clear about that.

- - - Updated - - -

Amplification is going to be a weird stat just because it'll be sub-optimal for EVERY spec first tier, and slowly gain value over time. I wonder if they're planning to tweak the conversion to ensure people use it some over the expansion.

Multistrike is 'crit, jr.', it's crit without the enrage proc. For classes that gain little from having abilities crit, if the conversion is more favorable than crit, crit will be avoided, otherwise they'll avoid multistrike. My guess is that they will give it a very favorable conversion to ensure all specs use it, but fury/fire will be left out due to the necessity that the ability crit.

I don't think cooldown reduction is going to work out early for us. If it does, it'll be very gamey as we'll be swapping out pieces of gear each fight for it.

Example:
On Garrosh, aoe tends to happen every 40~ seconds, which is perfect for the CDR trinket. With CDR as a stat, we would have to swap out pieces of gear to push our cooldowns down to a level where bladestorm is available to use each time, but not push them too far as then it is a wasted stat.

Now, swapping gear out isn't nearly as painful in WoD as it is now. Not having to worry about hit/exp/reforging just means we could keep a few CDR-heavy pieces in our bags and swap as needed. But is min/maxing that sort of thing fun every encounter? That's a question we'll have to answer over this expansion. CDR could also present a similar problem that armor penetration had, in that you need to stack it to a certain level before it becomes a dominant enough stat. Having storm bolt on a 24 second cooldown would just be annoying.

Keep in mind, since gear is shared; swapping out gear may be easier, but getting that gear could very well be harder. Especially once we start talking about tertiary, gem and warforged rolls. Not looking forward to all that noise.
I really hope, and will continue to push for a baseline 20s Storm Bolt. I think it adds a lot to the reliability of our rotation, esp at low gear levels, and it is pretty fun imo to boot. It being effected by CDR simply makes it unwieldly and I completely agree with your example of CDR and Armor Pen.

[Xtacle]

Playing Fury was some of the most fun I had in my short time in MoP. Sure the dependence on very high crit levels made it kinda odd to play at times but I still thought it was very fulfilling.

To actually master it was quite the challenge for me, anyone could just spam all the abilities on CD and do good DPS, but to go beyond and do more intermediate stuff like pooling rage and timing out how you should attack ahead of time and what attacks to use depending on if you get a crits or not made it very compelling.

[CollisionTD]

Keep in mind, since gear is shared; swapping out gear may be easier, but getting that gear could very well be harder. Especially once we start talking about tertiary, gem and warforged rolls. Not looking forward to all that noise.
I really hope, and will continue to push for a baseline 20s Storm Bolt. I think it adds a lot to the reliability of our rotation, esp at low gear levels, and it is pretty fun imo to boot. It being effected by CDR simply makes it unwieldly and I completely agree with your example of CDR and Armor Pen.

Yeah, swapping out gear will be kind of annoying:

I need 200 CDR rating to push bladestorm down to 40 seconds, but in order to get that, I have to swap a 100 ilvl crit/mastery/cleave chest for 89 ilvl cdr/crit chest.

Depending on how much aoe there is on any encounter, I don't even know if I could tell you if that's a worthwhile trade or not... let alone someone who is newer to the spec.

[Darkfriend]

Yeah it really isn't as bad as you think. Proper Gemming and Reforging goes a long way towards helping, though I know many lazy players don't want to have to put in the work to not just gem all primary stats like most other classes.

Haste definitely is garbage, but again, that's where reforging comes in and EVERY spec has a terrible stat, just like EVERY spec has a great stat. Realistically, Haste is better than Hit when above 7.5% so I guess you could complain about that as well? There was a time when we actively tried to reach dw hit cap.

The only real defining aspect of Crit for Fury is how it is stronger than Strength, which is not the norm where other classes are concerned. This doesn't make it terrible design.

And to clarify the "people who make the damn game" are fixing other stat values for Warriors is aimed at bringing Haste up to match Mastery/Crit levels; not bringing Crit down. And the only real reason it is a concern is because of the removal of Reforging and (many) gems/enchants.

- - - Updated - - -



They aren't wild at all. Rating is irrelevant, and he didn't mention them for a reason. His numbers are simply a scaling comparison to Strength; ie:

If Strength is worth 1 point; Crit is worth 0.9 out of 1 (think if 1 point of Strength was worth 10 dps, 1 point of Crit would be worth 9 dps, the actual number is irrelevant, its simply a comparison).
If Strength (at 1) is worth 10 dps per point; Haste (at .3) would be worth 3 dps.

Make sense now? It's actually very easy to do with SimCraft, unless they were to wildly change how they (or Warriors) work, all the stats are already in the game, so its easy to model.

There are a lot of options to fix haste, but only a couple of them really make enough of a difference to be worth while.
There was a long thread about it in these forums already, that Collision actually started.

Ye, those numbers are what we call SEP, it's just a normalized stat weight where strength always equals 1 for ease of calculations. (I know you now this archi, just for others who may not.)

[Archimtiros]

Yeah, swapping out gear will be kind of annoying:

I need 200 CDR rating to push bladestorm down to 40 seconds, but in order to get that, I have to swap a 100 ilvl crit/mastery/cleave chest for 89 ilvl cdr/crit chest.

Depending on how much aoe there is on any encounter, I don't even know if I could tell you if that's a worthwhile trade or not... let alone someone who is newer to the spec.

I'm not worried about the swapping so much as more loot competition, due to sharing loot across Plate classes. Hopefully drop rates/item amounts will be managed to compensate, but the game has a very awkward track record with such things. Ie: Legendary cloaks for everyone; and still 2 cloaks per primary dropping in raids = lots of wasted loot allocations. They should have just had normal SoO equivalent ilvl Cloaks sold by vendors on Timeless Isle or something for the people who didn't do the questline.

[Bizerk]

On the other hand, int plate and tank plate is largely a waste after the first few weeks and this might alleviate that fact.

[gunnmen01]

Short answer, no.
Long answer, nnnooooo

[Deleted]

First Post get!


I don't think Fury needs an over-haul however I think a few changes could be nice.

1.) SB should be 20 second Baseline, it fits perfectly with the CS window and enables us to rely less on BT crits for RB which would be a great way to solve the lack of Crit at the start of an expansion/tier
2.) 1 second GCD would be great to give fury it's original "furious" feel that Flurry doesn't quite cut. However for this to work you'd need more abilities in the rotation;

2.1) Lower the CD of BT to 3 seconds?
2.2) Put WW back into the rotation through a nice damage buff, however give it a CD to avoid it becoming the means of AoE, say 3 seconds?
2.3) Remove the Blood Surge proc but give it a 25% additional crit modifier or something? (Only just come up with this so I'm a bit meh)

3.) Major mastery changes.

3.1) The enrage effect is removed, our mastery is replaced by ArP, scaling to the equivalent (or a small percentage less if need be) of what we get for Enrage at the moment. Essentially it would do the exact same thing Enrage does now - X% more damage when enraged, but instead of being enraged it would be all the time, however this would then make CS pretty useless... The reason behind this however would once again be to make our damage less crit reliant and improve damage at the start of an expansion.



I'm not suggesting these things should be done, however with the current stage of things I feel if you read the description for Arms and Fury their specs are reflecting their counterparts description. Arms feels very spammy with CS resets, overpower with a lower GCD and getting MS early whereas Fury seems very concise and a constantly flow of build up, with only a 6 second window for it to be very "furious".
I've played Warrior since Wrath and can't say I dislike it now, unfortunately I've only had the chance to main my Warrior in PvE as of this tier, although I've played it as an alt for many a year <3

[Archimtiros]

First Post get!


I don't think Fury needs an over-haul however I think a few changes could be nice.

1.) SB should be 20 second Baseline, it fits perfectly with the CS window and enables us to rely less on BT crits for RB which would be a great way to solve the lack of Crit at the start of an expansion/tier
2.) 1 second GCD would be great to give fury it's original "furious" feel that Flurry doesn't quite cut. However for this to work you'd need more abilities in the rotation;

2.1) Lower the CD of BT to 3 seconds?
2.2) Put WW back into the rotation through a nice damage buff, however give it a CD to avoid it becoming the means of AoE, say 3 seconds?
2.3) Remove the Blood Surge proc but give it a 25% additional crit modifier or something? (Only just come up with this so I'm a bit meh)

3.) Major mastery changes.

3.1) The enrage effect is removed, our mastery is replaced by ArP, scaling to the equivalent (or a small percentage less if need be) of what we get for Enrage at the moment. Essentially it would do the exact same thing Enrage does now - X% more damage when enraged, but instead of being enraged it would be all the time, however this would then make CS pretty useless... The reason behind this however would once again be to make our damage less crit reliant and improve damage at the start of an expansion.



I'm not suggesting these things should be done, however with the current stage of things I feel if you read the description for Arms and Fury their specs are reflecting their counterparts description. Arms feels very spammy with CS resets, overpower with a lower GCD and getting MS early whereas Fury seems very concise and a constantly flow of build up, with only a 6 second window for it to be very "furious".
I've played Warrior since Wrath and can't say I dislike it now, unfortunately I've only had the chance to main my Warrior in PvE as of this tier, although I've played it as an alt for many a year <3

Feel like the same thing gets covered over and over again in this thread.
Description doesn't necessarily influence playstyle. You can argue Fury doesn't feel like its description; in a post above I outlined a way in which it does. Not saying I don't agree in theory, but realistically everyone could have their own interpretation and it is impossible to appease every individual viewpoint.

1) Agreed. I suggested this at Blizzcon and have harped on it pretty much every chance I get! /fingers crossed.

2) Doesn't work without massive changes to the playstyle and honestly isn't needed. Our keys get "furious"(spammy) enough during CS and too many things would have be re-worked to make it possible, including BT, CS, Enrage time and damage coefficients would need to be lowered across the board to make up for hitting specials more often. It would also, imo, make hitting Heroic Strike during CS more difficult (less time to do it in) and that could be really annoying without the use of macros or something.

2.2) They removed WW from our rotation because they did not like the fact that an AoE ability was part of our Single Target rotation. The intent was that AoE and ST rotations were rotational decisions and not the same at all times. I don't know if I necessarily agree with that change, because it effected some classes more than others (DK's) and would like a bit of passive cleave to be included in our Single Target rotation. Elsewhere I detailed a combination Heroic Strike-Cleave effect which I though would be really nice; letting us do effective ST damage on primary target but maintain a bit of cleave DPS; but I digress.
I do not see this happening, aside from the above, it simply doesn't fit anywhere in our rotation without the complete change/removal of Wild Strike.

2.3) I have always disliked Bloodsurge, so I would enjoy a change here as well. Not sure what, but the proc is just a bit too clunky to fit well, and it's damage is underwhelming enough to not feel exciting.

3.1) Actually a great idea! It would take some pretty hefty reworkings and as you said, make CS rather worthless, but it is a neat concept. I like the idea of "Enraging" and gaining ArP, but looking at it objectively; if you removed CS, it wouldn't matter if Enrage gave you ArP or +% Damage, either way its a flat damage increase; assuming the overall damage gain is equally balanced, what you call it (or what effect it comes from) is irrelevant aside from how you feel about the idea.
Although it really isn't, because + damage has no cap, while ArP caps out at 100%, so there is a technical issue to keep in mind with regards to ilvl scaling. Likewise it could (possibly) not allow you to make use of other outside ArP benefits should they be implemented.

Personally, I feel like Arms is the issue; not only would it be easier to re-work Arms, it would also be more beneficial since it is the underdog spec.
While others would advocate massive changes, I would simply consider removing CS from Arms and give it more consistent damage via another means.

I feel CS fits Fury pretty well, and gives it that bursty/wild feeling, even if it is a controlled and directed fury, and allows it to make use of HS and feel spammy. While Arms should be more stable, removing CS makes it less bursty, replace with whatever to keep the rotation from being 3 buttons.
Could come up with a half dozen other changes too, from Sweeping Strikes, to Mastery, Bleeds or Rage Gen tweaks; but that isn't the point of this thread.

TLDR: Fury is in too good of a place to change simply because people are unhappy with an arbitrary description most likely written by someone who doesn't even have a hand in tuning or playing the class. Better to change the description and/or change Arms instead.

[Deleted]

Perhaps you're right with the description thing, or maybe the rate at the game has developed means the description is no longer accurate. It's not too important compared to things like balance and actual gameplay issues, but made me chuckle how wrong it was none-the-less.

To be quite honest if we treat arms as a Blademaster, master of weapons and all that then it may even make more sense for arms to get some form of ArP. I wouldn't like to throw ideas around because with the resetting of CS it kinda already has a form of ArP which has a fairly high uptime, especially if we're lucky with procs. In my personal opinion Opportunist Strike is hella derpy and just feels like a copy and paste from Rogues... Which I wouldn't at all be surprised at.


On the subject of Fury Mastery, I do see your point where once we reach 100% mastery we'd be doing our maximum damage, but that's probably a similar issue to Elemental where they're reaching 100% mastery and going more into haste or even just pure intellect. I think it would be the biggest "overhaul" Fury would need/get (not really need but benefit from) without the class being stripped of all recognition. I do like the idea of the CS window and everything revolving around it being the difference between good and bad Fury Warriors but at the same time it kinda loses it's "raw" feeling. I dunno...

Regardless I look forward to WoD, the level 100 talents look/feel a bit lackluster and quite frankly they seem copy and pasted from a Diablo 3 Barbarian but it's early days still, subject to change and all that. Perhaps Blade Barrier or Ravager will be the abilities we need to include more passive cleave? I wouldn't be at all surprised if TG with glyphed WW becomes manditory (the one raging blow one, can't recall it's name) for that bit of cleave.

Time will tell I guess.