The slippery slope has finally ended.

[Incandio]

The levelling process involves a limited series of actions (e.g. kill and collect quests) that cannot be indefinitely spread out over an ever increasing number of levels. What worked for 60 levels does not work for 100. And that's just for one character.

This sort of change isn't a "slippery slope" change: it's a causal result of having levels in the first place.

[Giscoicus]

Except I'm not. I'm using the actual definition. You are the one drawing an arbitrary line.

And no, again, players have NOT always defined a P2W game as "paying to get an advantage." Its paying to get advantages people cannot get if they don't. It always has been.

To state that you would be against getting an advantage through buying heroic warforged gear, but not through boosting characters, means somewhere you drew a line at what was too much of an advantage.

[tss]

The issue is you drawing arbitrary lines at what type of advantage is too much.

The issue with your argument is failing to recognize the line that exists and that is moved every time a new expansion is released. End game is where the real game starts. Whether that's good design philosophy is another issue entirely, but that is the fact of the matter and you are choosing to ignore it.

I'm curious, what is your opinion on end game raid tier catch-up mechanisms? Not the different implementations such as badges and Timeless Isle, but the concept itself.

[enchanted]

Indeed it has finally ended. I remember making a rant thread (which turned out disastrous due to some points) which no one seemed to listen. I think buying a 90 is a great thing to aid the old players, instead of leveling again from 1-90. But what about all the previous content? No one would do them anymore and most probably new players would also like the instant 90 and be satisfied with only 1 100 in their account, and will reconsider buying another 90 to skip all the content.

That might not seem as a major issue but devs just wasted their times making the older content. What truly bothers me is what blizzard's next step might be if they go too wild with their "microtransactions" system. I just hope they don't decide on selling blues or even epics (that's 2 tiers behind the current one aka timeless style) making them even skip the content of current expansion that has offered, also giving them an advantage over players (P2W). Oh and for only $50, you can get a burden of eternity styled item to boost the ilvl of your current purchased item!

Blizzard should really just offer cosmetics and other delicacies and maybe buyable 90's if it facilitates the leveling burden for old players.

[cFortyfive]

disable multiple action bars, prevent equipping epic or above gear, prevent basic functions like titles and number of characters...etc.

That was pretty hilarious when I heard that from a friend. Haven't touched that crap since I quit rather fast after release.

That might not seem as a major issue but devs just wasted their times making the older content.

Well it was just an addon.

[Krisshaman]

By all of the flawed definitions ive seen in this thread, my $15 a month made WoW a pay to win game a long time ago. I cant win the game if i dont pay $15 a month, i cant level, i cant get gear, i cant kill bosses. I must be doing it wrong, because i still havent seen the game go YOU WIN.

Seriously though, how many people dont have a server full of 90s? is it really that bad if someone pays money to catch up to you? Or is it a problem that you have spent $15 a month over the last few years leveling characters, and now you can spend maybe a months worth of subscription fee (assuming here) to skip 20 hours of leveling through content you already saw, but a new player wont because they skip all of it? You will still have the ability to look at their achievements, see they got all their level 10-90 cheevos on the same day, and go "lolnoob"

[Somaldelhar]

Because pay to win means you gain an advantage over other players by paying for something that they cannot get unless they pay.

You doomsdayers tend to forget that end part.

okay. how about i set up a scenario with in-game functions. lets say one person has just used this system to get the max amount of max level characters. this means more lockouts, bank space, etc, yes and that in and of itself does not give any unique advantage over the person who does not pay. however, that also means there are 12 farms in half-hill. that means this person can level up profs extremely quickly, as leveling them to current expac level is already easy, and the farm equals free mats with which to level it for current expac. this also means they have the mats for almost anything they want to make, as well as multiple cooldowns across different characters, possibly overlapping ones. now, when these people have gotten their profs and farms maxxed (a matter of very little time in comparison to leveling 12 individual characters, especially if you already have a 90 exalted with the tillers) this means they can make whatever they want, whenever they want. this also means that if they are so inclined they can control the auction house, as that person has a monopoly compared to the one that doesn't pay for 12 characters. and before you say "there aren't people who would do that", yes. there are. then theres the wild AH fluctuations from the connected realms, which didn't alter the player base any, it just put more of them in one place.


mind this is a rather extreme example, but the economy in game would fluctuate heavily in everything from gems and chants, to potions and flasks, to mats and crafter gear. and the people that would end up with the advantage are those that would choose to do the above. with the garrison, it may be even easier since NPC's do a lot of things for you. i can even see gold farmers becoming rampant again. there WILL be an effect on everyone. not just economically but socially as well, as there will be a lot more people that just blitz they're way to 90/100 without actually stopping to learn what the hell they are doing. this means LFR will inevitably get worse as well.

i won't say that "leveling=experienced". thats a pretty heavy fallacy that LFR disproves. however, it CAN mean the difference between someone getting good before hitting LFR, and being an LFR AFKer/Bot/Blame-shifter, whatever you want to call it. by making the end game more accessible, the core audience gets diluted more with people that care about it less. they come, see, leave, and those that actually want to do it are the ones that inevitably get hurt for it. if that isn't an "Effect on other people" then i don't know what is.

[Giscoicus]

And anybody can go on the auction house and buy all of those pieces in 28 days without having to spend any real money. You're also neglecting (intentionally?) to remember that you have to LEARN those patterns by crafting said cloth. They don't just come to you. And that's four pieces of gear over 28 days. How do you think you'll go about farming for the mats? In order for you to achieve that amount of mats (for the celestial cloth CD, in this case) you'd need 400 pieces of windwool cloth, or 80 bolts of Windwool cloth......a day.

Oh, and since when does "an advantage" in the economy mean anything? My wife is perfectly fine to run around with no more than 10k gold at a time and she does perfectly fine playing all aspects of this game. Having more gold is not a tangible advantage over anybody. Especially in a game that basically hands you gold hand over fist.

But they still have to spend the time to earn the gold to purchuse the gear from those who took the time to create the gear. Its all about everybody needing to put in the same sort of effort.

Yes, I would still need to grind the mats and level up the profession. But anybody who doesn't pay would need to do that, AND level to 85 in the first place. Its harder if you don't pay.

[notorious98]

more like level 80 then.

No, more like something that has become obsolete.

Not sure how long it takes someone, without boas to get max lvl(not everyone is so bored that they max out how much exp they gain like others) but im sure it's the same as a fresh 90 going into SoO every week and getting full normal gear. Joined a raiding guild months after SoO, i was full pvp. Took me 4 weeks to get full normal gear with only 3 hrs a week.

And you were probably running with a guild that was completely geared out so they just handed you whatever wasn't definitely needed. It takes less than a week to get to max level, even without BoAs. That's playing a few hours a day.

My only argument is that it is selling power. It's trivial, but still counts. If it doesnt count, then that means SoO Heroic Warforged is the only thing that matters.

It's not power. It's convenience from an aspect of the game that others can find daunting or boring and is, honestly, inconsequential to the game itself. All it's doing is allowing you to skip content. Equating it to raiding or raiding gear is apples and oranges. They're not comparable. Having a higher level character isn't "power" because it doesn't mean shit until you're at max level anyway.

[KrazyK923]

mind this is a rather extreme example, but the economy in game would fluctuate heavily in everything from gems and chants, to potions and flasks, to mats and crafter gear.

All you've used are the utmost extreme examples and somehow pretend that means this is what we're heading to.

by making the end game more accessible, the core audience gets diluted more with people that care about it less. they come, see, leave, and those that actually want to do it are the ones that inevitably get hurt for it. if that isn't an "Effect on other people" then fuck if i know what is.

Are you bitching about pay to win boosts or making raids accessible? Because I can't tell the difference at this point. This point is just absurd. That's all that really needs to be said.

[Mulderfox]

That was pretty hilarious when I heard that from a friend. Haven't touched that crap since I quit rather fast after release.

Ya I tried to go back about a year after the game launched and I was honestly so offended by how choked the game was for non-subbers that I just couldn't do it. WoW is nowhere NEAR that bad. Like not even on the same planet.

[Giscoicus]

By all of the flawed definitions ive seen in this thread, my $15 a month made WoW a pay to win game a long time ago. I cant win the game if i dont pay $15 a month, i cant level, i cant get gear, i cant kill bosses. I must be doing it wrong, because i still havent seen the game go YOU WIN.

Seriously though, how many people dont have a server full of 90s? is it really that bad if someone pays money to catch up to you? Or is it a problem that you have spent $15 a month over the last few years leveling characters, and now you can spend maybe a months worth of subscription fee (assuming here) to skip 20 hours of leveling through content you already saw, but a new player wont because they skip all of it? You will still have the ability to look at their achievements, see they got all their level 10-90 cheevos on the same day, and go "lolnoob"

Actually, it was pay to play, at least before the free trial was introduced. You could not play the game period without paying. The original 14 day free trial was just that, a free trial, but it became sorta a different type of game when the free trial had no time cap.

[dacoolist]

Oh noez another super low geared 90 in random bg's that I get to CRUSH below my boot! #comeATmeBRO

[Trubo]

At BlizzCon a lot of people brought up their intent to just buy multiple copies of the expansion to get multiple boosts. It was always going to be possible, and if that's something people would like to do we'd rather their experience not be opening new accounts and paying for character transfers just to get additional boosts. -Bash

Sounds pretty clear they plan on supporting the western market with this

So Blizzard streamlining the process and actually saving people money on something they'd have done anyway is evil?

There's 2 types of testing with this and you're confusing one for the other.

There's "Testing to see if this is possible" And "testing, to get this working on day one". You pick whatever one you want, but they are deadset on doing this.

And we'll be able to buy the digital version of the game soon, and well before the expansion, which gives ppl the 90, pet and mounts early.

Most likely during the WoD pre-patch, a time at which no one cares about what achievement(s) you get considering the content is nerfed to oblivion anyway.

It means you are a couple days away from max level rather than a couple weeks (depending on playtime). You are getting a max level easier, max levels offer advantages like bank space lockouts and daily cooldowns.

How is this not paying for an advantage again?

An advantage on what, cosmetic stuff like transmog gear and mounts/pets? Professions aren't so powerful that you absolutely must have all of them to make any decent gold.

Okay, let me walk you through this:

Current tailors can craft on a daily cooldown celestial cloth. There are 2 caster dps pieces and 2 healer pieces using these items. Each set takes a total of 49 cloth to make.

To have the 600 tailoring you have to be level 85+.

A person with only one character above level 85 can make both pieces, which are gear on par with siege normal, after 49 days

A person with 2 characters above 85 can make both pieces in 28 days

A person with 3 characters above 85 can make both pieces and a third in 28 days.

A person with 4 characters above 85 can make all 4 pieces in 28 days.

Imagine somebody boosting 8 alts to 90 and being able to pump out these pieces and other items as well in no time flat because of additional daily cooldowns. Right now, this same thing happens, however because of the level restriction on profession training, they still have to go through the same work as anybody else to reach this level and the same grinding to get the profession to 600.

1. The 553 crafted gear requires you to actually learn the pattern from the daily cooldown; the accelerated cooldown only gives you more mats in case you happen to get a pattern.

2. By pumping out ll this 553 gear all you're doing is killing the market for the gear as there will be significantly more supply than demand.

Oh, and by the way, you can already do this by just leveling characters. Maybe Blizzard should prevent people from making alts so as to protect server economies from the inevitable flood of low-demand goods.

The logic behind people complaining about this is irrational... as an example.

1. You work hard at your job, save up your money and buy a small car.

2. That guy works just enough to pay his bills, gets a loan from the bank and buys a car.

The rational of the argument is that you're mad at the guy because he got a loan for his car. You leveled the regular way to 90... He bought his level 90. You did work to get where you are. He bought his way to where you are.

Honestly.. just stop and think about it for a few minutes. :P

Huh? Why would I be mad at the guy that's in a financially unstable situation because he wants to live beyond his means? I'll enjoy my life of financial security and laugh when I see all his stuff getting repossessed.

[Mawnix]

They were also quick to say that the experience booster potions were intended for specific markets, and that there were no plans to use it in the US...which is exactly what happened.

Here, they've said they have been evaluating ways to bring this to the players, and even make note that it will include an additional set of details for the Asian specific market (i.e. it's designed for both) as they bring us more information. If you're suggesting they will follow the same trend as last time, then the feature is pretty much a given for both markets.

Derp indeed.

Look - as a feature that is going to be on the PTR for testing, you should be looking at it as a consumer, not a Blizzard apologist. In other words, treat it like it will happen at this point in time. If you're fine with it, go ahead and say so - support the feature, talk up its advantages, etc. If you're not, then advocate against it.

In other words, constructive consumer feedback.

Trying to play off what will clearly not be a popular move for some current subscribers as "oh, it might not/probably won't happen, you crazies have nothing to worry about" does no one any favors.

Just saying man: guys with your beliefs tend to over react and then whatever they're freaking out about never happens.

Try not to be so negative.

[notorious98]

But they still have to spend the time to earn the gold to purchuse the gear from those who took the time to create the gear. Its all about everybody needing to put in the same sort of effort.

Yes, I would still need to grind the mats and level up the profession. But anybody who doesn't pay would need to do that, AND level to 85 in the first place. Its harder if you don't pay.

Leveling is hard? I think what you mean to say is it's slightly more time consuming. By a couple days.

[Krisshaman]

Actually, it was pay to play, at least before the free trial was introduced. You could not play the game period without paying. The original 14 day free trial was just that, a free trial, but it became sorta a different type of game when the free trial had no time cap.

Transitive property....if you can only win by playing, and you have to pay to play, you have to pay to win.

[Somaldelhar]

Transitive property....if you can only win by playing, and you have to pay to play, you have to pay to win.

that doesn't work here. pay to play inherently means that everyone pays the same to play the same. if paying differently means an advantage of some sort, it is pay to win.

[BreathTaker]

Nobody sees pre-endgame as part of WoW anymore (which is a pity), so Blizzard just decided that value of insta-90s is the same as vanity items they already sell.
I guess we're still far from buying epics from Blizz, a step closer,though.

[Zaqwert]

Blizzard will eventually sell actual gear in the store, it's inevitable. They'll do it when it will make them more money than it costs them.