The slippery slope has finally ended.

[BenBos]

Until this option actually appears there's little sense mocking it as nothing in the last six years of the Blizzard store has come remotely to obtaining in-game items with real cash.

Of course. These arguments of gear were raised for 8 years already and of course they are too stupid to even discuss.

Futile attempts coming from the same usual suspects.

Actually, the free lvl 90 is great for returning players. And in no way it will have a negative impact on anyone's play, on the contrary. People will be glad to see the latest content on launch.

If you buy the newest RPG, you don't need to wade through the previous 4 games of The Elder Scrolls either.

The fact it is an mmorpg or not has nothing to do with the enjoyment of the latest content.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Seriously, just reread what you wrote.

How can anyone who paid for his lvl 90 character have ANY effect on your enjoyment ???

btw: since DAY 1 people have paid for leveling services ... how did it influence the enjoyment of YOUR leveling fun?

tldr: grow up. this is a game.

If anyone wants to pay for a character 90: good for him. I play my game, you play yours.

In fact if he pays it to Blizzard, good for me too as he upped the resources to put in the game.

These are arguments of 13 years olds, thinking they "earn" something by playing a video game.

Good Lord have pity on these chaps.

oh good, a BenBos post to disect. This should be fun.

If people can PAY to bypass levelling content, where is the encouragement for Blizzard to improve the levelling content? After all, the more people that bypass it, the more money they make. So that makes the game worse for everyone that doesn't want to give Blizzard even more money in a subscription based game.

Don't believe the reasoning? Have a look at the low/imbalanced server situation. It has taken them years to take ANY steps to improve things, because they knew that doing so would cost them the income they get from the wildly overpriced transfers they offer.

Oh, and using the "people that disagree with me are 13" card as well. Sad.

[BenBos]

oh good, a BenBos post to disect. This should be fun.

If people can PAY to bypass levelling content, where is the encouragement for Blizzard to improve the levelling content? After all, the more people that bypass it, the more money they make. So that makes the game worse for everyone that doesn't want to give Blizzard even more money in a subscription based game.

Don't believe the reasoning? Have a look at the low/imbalanced server situation. It has taken them years to take ANY steps to improve things, because they knew that doing so would cost them the income they get from the wildly overpriced transfers they offer.

Oh, and using the "people that disagree with me are 13" card as well. Sad.

As stated: the leveling content is there for those that want it.

You don't need to play through the 4 previous Elder scrolls either to enjoy Skyrim.

You can, but with this measure, you can play the latest expansion too.

win win for both kind of players.

Leveling services were on offer since day 1. Did it hurt you ?

ROFL. Actually, it is more like a 7 year old talking...

[Huehuecoyotl]

As stated: the leveling content is there for those that want it.

You don't need to play through the 4 previous Elder scrolls either to enjoy Skyrim.

You can, but with this measure, you can play the latest expansion too.

win win for both kind of players.

Leveling services were on offer since day 1. Did it hurt you ?

ROFL.

Why did you reply to me when you didn't cover ANY of the points I made in my post? Or were you replying to someone else and got confused?

Oh, and what levelling services were on offer from day 1? Apart from the ones offered by third parties, of course. Are you admitting to using them to get the guilt off your chest?

Now, if you want to address any of my actual points, feel free.

[BenBos]

Why did you reply to me when you didn't cover ANY of the points I made in my post? Or were you replying to someone else and got confused?

Oh, and what levelling services were on offer from day 1? Apart from the ones offered by third parties, of course. Are you admitting to using them to get the guilt off your chest?

Now, if you want to address any of my actual points, feel free.

Actually I answered your ridiculous arguments already. You have NO counter arguments either.

People don't pay to skip content: people pay to have a level 90 to START doing the newest content. It would be ridiculous NOT to include such an option for a 10 year old game like WOW. You don't need to do the 4 previous installments of the Elder Scroll either...

And as for DAY 1 use of leveling services: did it hurt YOU ?

of course not... so those against it : stop acting like spoiled 6 year olds. "I Want that others NEED to do ALL the old leveling content too".

Grow up.

World of Warcraft is a video game. Stop acting like it is a life achievement.

More options is more game for everybody.

[Prag]

oh good, a BenBos post to disect. This should be fun.

If people can PAY to bypass levelling content, where is the encouragement for Blizzard to improve the levelling content? After all, the more people that bypass it, the more money they make. So that makes the game worse for everyone that doesn't want to give Blizzard even more money in a subscription based game.

Don't believe the reasoning? Have a look at the low/imbalanced server situation. It has taken them years to take ANY steps to improve things, because they knew that doing so would cost them the income they get from the wildly overpriced transfers they offer.

Oh, and using the "people that disagree with me are 13" card as well. Sad.

My opinion on your statements:

1. The leveling experience for previous content has been so watered down that you aren't even able to follow a quest zone through if you join one of the million level 25 Guilds. You just blow through everything and none of it makes sense.

2. Most everyone leveling alts don't bother questing - they just dungeon-crawl. They don't do anything good (or bad) for those who chose a different route.

3. People who are just picking up the game seem like the people most likely to quest through it anyway and therefor the least likely to actually use the level 90 boost.

Just my thoughts. It's opinion vs opinion really, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I disagree.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Actually I answered your ridiculous arguments already. You have NO counter arguments either.

People don't pay to skip content: people pay to have a level 90 to START doing the newest content. it would be ridiculous NOT to include such an option for a 10 year old game like WOW. You don't need to do the 4 previois installments of the Elder Scroll either...

And as for DAY 1 use of leveling services: did it hurt YOU ?

of course not... so stop acting like a spolied 6 year old.

Grow up.

I had no counter arguments, because you hadn't addressed anything I said. The concept of debate appears to be confusing you.

I don't have a strong feeling for or against skipping old content; my problem is with making it a PAID service in a subscription game. Feel free to explain why you think this is necessary, rather than using some form of cooldown.

You will need to explain what form of day 1 levelling service you are talking about, since none were officially allowed in Vanilla WoW.

And stop with the "you disagree you are a kid" comments. It doesn't help the discussion. Address the points raised, rather than just being confrontational.

[Prag]

I don't have a strong feeling for or against skipping old content; my problem is with making it a PAID service in a subscription game. Feel free to explain why you think this is necessary, rather than using some form of cooldown.

I didn't see this suggestion before. I like it a lot more than a paid service. I'll be using neither (have way too many max level alts as it is), but your suggestion makes more sense.

[Sithalos]

Oh, and here's Destil, defending Blizzard's choice because it doesn't impact you AT ALL.

You don't have to partake in it.

Does it simply bother you that others aren't going down the route you're not?

That seems to be the reason everyone also hates LFR.

Please use logic. Thank you.

You are the most ignorant person I've ever met online, and that's quite a feat. Congratulations.

[BenBos]

I.

I don't have a strong feeling for or against skipping old content; my problem is with making it a PAID service in a subscription game. Feel free to explain why you think this is necessary, rather than using some form of cooldown.

First: it is a FREE service for those acquiring the latest installment of WOW for now.

You get ONE free lvl 90 of your choice when you buy the latest expansion of the game.

GREAT. Finally WOW can be on par with all these other blockbusters like COD, the Elder Scrolls etc...

You can start fresh in brand NEW content with the latest challenges.

It is HOW games are played these days.

Blizzard is discussing other lvl 90's, but nothing is set in stone yet.

For extra's you will pay. As this service has ZERO impact on YOUR/MY enjoyment of the game, I can think of NO counter arguments at all.

[MikeBogina]

Deathwing is in SoO? Interesting.

Ohh wow, i was wicked tired last night, passed right out after saying that. I meant to say DS. Joined a guild months after it's release, and got fully geared in 4 weeks. to much SoO on the mind >.>

[nomorepriest]

That's not even remotely selling them.

PLEASE KNOW YOUR SHIT BEFORE YOU POST!!
Bolster the Ranks

We’ve also heard feedback from players that they’d be interested in boosting multiple characters to 90, including alts they play with friends on other factions and realms. We’ve been evaluating ways to make that possible without having players go through roundabout methods (such as purchasing multiple boxes and performing multiple character transfers), and in the near future we’ll be testing out a feature that gives you the option to purchase a character upgrade directly. We’ll have more information to share later—including details on our character-upgrade plans for Asian regions where players don’t buy expansion boxes—but you’ll start seeing pieces of the process soon on the PTR, so keep an eye out.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12426481/

[Obtuse]

Need someone to post the picture of the dead horse being flogged please.

[Deadite]

You don't need to play through the 4 previous Elder scrolls either to enjoy Skyrim.

That is why you just buy Skyrim and not the others? You have to buy every expansion in WoW to get to the lastest one. With such an asinine reply you then call other people children?

Selling level 90's only helps Blizzard. Don't make it sound like some sort of altruistic gesture to help the little guy join his high level chums. Don't make it sound like it will help every player out with more money means more content. That is a laughable statement. How many billions have they made from the is game? Yet it remains one of the slowest mmos around to give you new content. How many months is it going to be this time? 6? 8? 12 again?

We have already seen more mounts than every in the cash shop and the trend will continue. Time to buckle up or get off the ride as we have just begun the trip down the rabbit hole.

[Trubo]

PLEASE KNOW YOUR SHIT BEFORE YOU POST!!
Bolster the Ranks

We’ve also heard feedback from players that they’d be interested in boosting multiple characters to 90, including alts they play with friends on other factions and realms. We’ve been evaluating ways to make that possible without having players go through roundabout methods (such as purchasing multiple boxes and performing multiple character transfers), and in the near future we’ll be testing out a feature that gives you the option to purchase a character upgrade directly. We’ll have more information to share later—including details on our character-upgrade plans for Asian regions where players don’t buy expansion boxes—but you’ll start seeing pieces of the process soon on the PTR, so keep an eye out.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12426481/

And please read at least the first few pages of the thread before you make a post. Darth was not commenting about the 90 that gets bundled with the expansion but OP's statement that you can currently buy 90s from Blizzard, which is simply not true. It may eventually come to pass but as it stands there is no legitimate way to get a level 90 other than leveling one yourself.

[Sansnom]

Blizzard seems under the impression that "less people are playing mmos in general" but I dont think that is a result of the consumer, as much as it is a result of the lack of a true mmo products. (This one could be opinion, but for me this is true, I still love mmos, I just dont know of any REAL mmos these days)

How does Blizzard selling level 90 affects you in anyway? I see a lot of people complaining. Not saying they are right or wrong. But I also recall seeing a lot of people asking for this feature. So is Blizzard doing this on their own or simply giving to customers what they want?

And what is this true mmo product you are referring to?

[Deadite]

How does Blizzard selling level 90 affects you in anyway?

I will have to put in weeks of effort to get what they paid for. Do you think people shouldn't feel aggrieved by this? Time to play video game is a finite resource for most people. Paying to avoid this is an insult to every customer who is forced to slogg through content Blizzard has now deemed so irrelevant and uninteresting they will allow you to pay money to avoid it.

[Thagrynor]

okay. how about i set up a scenario with in-game functions. lets say one person has just used this system to get the max amount of max level characters. this means more lockouts, bank space, etc, yes and that in and of itself does not give any unique advantage over the person who does not pay. however, that also means there are 12 farms in half-hill. that means this person can level up profs extremely quickly, as leveling them to current expac level is already easy, and the farm equals free mats with which to level it for current expac. this also means they have the mats for almost anything they want to make, as well as multiple cooldowns across different characters, possibly overlapping ones. now, when these people have gotten their profs and farms maxxed (a matter of very little time in comparison to leveling 12 individual characters, especially if you already have a 90 exalted with the tillers) this means they can make whatever they want, whenever they want. this also means that if they are so inclined they can control the auction house, as that person has a monopoly compared to the one that doesn't pay for 12 characters. and before you say "there aren't people who would do that", yes. there are. then theres the wild AH fluctuations from the connected realms, which didn't alter the player base any, it just put more of them in one place.

So much factual inaccuracy and overestimation, it makes my head spin.

Firstly, 11 spots total, not 12. They are not adding more spots in WoD, they have no currently expressed intention of allowing players to purchase more slots, and thus, only 11. Then you go on to mention having a 90 already Exalted, which implies they have already leveled to 90 once and have already gotten through the content once, thus they aren't a "purchase a server full of 90s", they will have experienced the game. Even if we assume you meant that they charged through to get Exalted with one toon and then jumped on the rest, let us remember several things.

The first toon without a Grand Commendation will take close to 2 weeks to get to Exalted with the Tillers. Pre-Exalted, the amount of farming you can do starts negligible and doesn't improve very fast. Even at Exalted, you have 16 farm slots per day. This means that regardless of what you plant, you can only harvest once per day. Let's assume that you plant Leather (I have much experience planting leather myself, and Leather has less "variant" mats that can be produced than any other save Windwool Cloth). Each seed has the chance to produce between 2 and 4 Leather with a rather small chance at producing a Hide. This means that the average take from a single day of farming leather is 3 leather per seed, at 16 seeds, so a total of roughly 48 leather. Even if we assume a 5% chance to produce a Magnificent Hide, and 11 toons all producing Leather to "power level" Leatherworking, you still end up with 501 Exotic Leather and 9 Magnificent Hides per day. Now, this is using ALL 11 toons to make this pull happen. Assuming you have 1 Leatherworker, you can thus make 1 Magnificent Hide and 1 Hardened Magnificent Hide per day, still leading to needing 28 days to make a pair of pants. Assuming you don't use the leather on the Leatherworker and you sell it, you are effectively selling what a single skinner can farm in roughly 1.5 hrs after using all 11 toons. Not exactly economy breaking. Also, at the rate this pulls, it will still take several days of using only this method to max out your Leatherworking and your leatherworker will still need to either farm some Spirits of Harmony him/herself or play the game, thus learning the class, because maxing a profession is far, far more difficult without spending some Spirits of Harmony to purchase the more guaranteed recipes from a vendor. What does this equate to? An gross overestimation of what having 11 maxed farms can give you per day. Things get worse when speaking about farming herbs since, in an average day on one farm, you could end up with only 4 or 5 of each available herb with poor RNG, not really allowing for either Milling for Inscription if you only get 4 of an herb or making many potions regardless of how many you get. Thus making leveling Alchemy and Inscription via this method without open world farming virtually limitless in how long it will take.

The point here is that trying to justify how buying a full server of 11 90s would be an "advantage" due to in game economics is a poor idea. Those purchased toons would have no start up capital to their names to play the AH, they would be forced to play for gear to even be able to effectively farm and they would need to level their professions. Thus farm, only Blacksmithing is levelable from 1 to 600 via only Pandaria mats, and the requirement to level that is somewhere just over 4700 bars of Ghost Iron, which is roughly 9400 Ghost Iron Ore. What this means is, assuming an average of 3 Ore per seed and you were the luckiest person in the world and got no Kyparite or Trillium Ore, even with 11 90s with maxed out farms, it would take you roughly 18 days to accumulate enough ore to level Blacksmithing without outside farming. And the likelihood of getting nothing but Ghost Iron on 11 farms in 16 plots per farm for 18 days is basically non-existent. What this all means is that you would still have to play your toons that have no start up capital to farm the low level mats through old content to gather the mats to level your professions to a point where you could even use Pandaria mats farmed from your farm. Thus negating the arguments that you won't see content and that you can gain some unholy, ridiculous economic advantage. On top of that, the people who have the economic advantage in game are the people who are gold capped on multiple toons and who already currently monopolize the AH. Take a look at your local server's AH. On average for certain gems or flasks or potions or enchants, I will put money on there being only a hand full of people selling. Having some purchased 90s with no gold will not suddenly change that fact.

As to the argument about "well, now I have so many more cooldowns and look how much faster I can make Tailoring gear", you forget one major major thing. On US Hyjal alone, Spirits of War sell for only 150g. For a smallish investment, a single person could purchase enough Spirits to make that Belt or those Pants via Tailoring in a single day. Your rationale to justify it via CDs is invalid. Coupled with the fact that, sure you can speed up using only your normal daily cooldowns how fast you can make gear. Except for 1 major flaw in your logic. Let's assume you are making the 553 Cloth gear, both a DPS and a healing set for your Priest. Now, you have stated that it would take only 28 days to make both sets with 4 maxed tailors. The logical flaw here is that, a) you would need to level 4 tailors to max which will either take a ridiculous investment of capital to buy all the cloth needed or you will have to farm the cloth yourself which, having leveled tailoring through the Netherweave and Frostweave levels, will take a very long time to do 4 times over. b) you will spend 28 days to complete 2 belts and 2 pairs of pants for your priest. In that time you will have at least 4, possibly 5 lock outs in SoO that you could potentially pass through. This means that you have between 4 and 5 chances to get a belt or pants to drop, thus making your grind for tailoring gear pointless. c) on the first day you are 90, you can go to the Timeless Isle, kill a Celestial, and potentially get your 553 Tier pants. d) It is still only 2 slots worth of gear that you just spent a month crafting. What about the other 14 slots that need items? You cannot craft those. So you still don't gain THAT huge an advantage.

Trying to use in game economic reasons to justify why this is horrible is like trying to justify why the level cap should only 95 instead of 100 because of your personal love of multiples of 5 instead of 10. It is trivial and pointless and has zero long term impact on the game.

Now for the silver lining to this scenario you've set up. The person most likely to purchase a server full of lvl 90 toons is going to be a brand new player. It likely won't be a veteran player as a veteran would either have toons already or be able to level quickly and not see the need to purchase because they know what the leveling situation is like timewise. If a new player is going to invest that much money into the game when they are first starting in an effort to gain some economic advantage, imagine the daily time investment to farming and do cooldowns on 11 toons every day. Minimum of an hour played to get it all done and, in getting it all done, they still haven't even played the game. Which means even more time spent, which means more people playing the game a great deal and getting hooked. This means more longer subscribers. That is a good thing.

One last issue I have with more of the arguments made in this thread. You keep saying things like, "Well, for only $25, why wouldn't you just buy a 90 even if you were a veteran player?" This assumes something important, that the cost would only be $25 USD. If the only other means to getting a server full of free 90s is to buy and create another account with WoD and then account transfer them, you are looking at, for every lvl 90, $20 spent on the Battle Chest (assuming it only contains through Cata, as people are complaining about this happening before MoP officially ends), $20 for MoP, $40 for WoD and then another, what? $25 per toon to account transfer. That means that every single "free" 90 will actually cost about $105 per toon. So for a full server full of 90s, it will set someone back roughly $1,155. That doesn't strike me as very "free". Also, if it is $105 to make a toon in this fashion, do you honestly think Blizzard would charge ONLY $25 for an instant 90? Likely the charge would be around $60-75. Because that way, you the consumer are still saving money compared to the alternative way of doing it.

TL;DR - There is no reasonable or realistic economic advantage to actually gain from having a server full of insta-90s that have no professions and no cash. And these "free" 90s aren't really all that free considering how much you'd have to spend to get a server full using the "buy lots of WoD copies and transfer" method (ie, $105 per 90).

[Deadite]

Geez. You might be "forced" to work.

Glad you see it my way. Being forced to do something that people can avoid with money is most annoying.

[Zathrendar]

They are selling them, but the price is high enough for me not to be bothered. In fact, there is so much in the game to do I wouldn't be that bothered if they began selling it for $10 per character after you hit your first 90. The slippery slope argument is correct, it's just that I don't think selling high level characters is damaging to the game at this point.

That said, I will be playing TESO as well, or at least plan to, if they do emphasise the RPG elements as much as is touted. I don't see WoW as a classic RPG anymore, it has eliminated too many of the core elements of this type of game. It's a fantasy MMOG. Not saying this is good or bad, but if you want an RPG, you will go for something different.

RPGs tend to involve much more involved character design and decision-making with respect to this, a la D&D, ideally allowing a broad variety of choices, as well as cookie-cutter builds.