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  1. #621
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    poor baby do you want your bottle?

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You are talking about farm kills, not progress kills. Significant difference.
    We dealt with plenty of that stuff on progress too.

    A lot of guilds did, especially the ones that killed it very early on with barely any heroic gear.

    Being able to a load of abilities certainly helps but it isn't necessary.

  3. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    We dealt with plenty of that stuff on progress too.

    A lot of guilds did, especially the ones that killed it very early on with barely any heroic gear.

    Being able to a load of abilities certainly helps but it isn't necessary.
    We had the 4th lowest item level in the world on Garrosh and we never had to deal with 3 waves. The guilds with lower than us also did not.
    I really do not know what you are talking about when you say that guilds that killed him early on was dealing with 3 waves, a vast majority of them did not and to be honest I have not seen any guild that did.

    Yes, it was for sure possible, but why would you? And it gotta be some really shitty dps.

  4. #624
    I'm in ascendance, we had three waves on our first kill.

    So did method and blood legion.

    Maybe all of our dps are bad, who knows.

  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiira View Post
    I'm in ascendance, we had three waves on our first kill.

    So did method and blood legion.

    Maybe all of our dps are bad, who knows.
    Well, I was speaking from a 10 man PoV, dont know about 25 man. There are 400% more guilds progressing Garrosh in 10 than 25 man at the moment so was making the assumption that the initial post was about 10 man considering what a pushover he is in 25 man.

    DPS checks was a lot tighter in 10 man so possible that in 25 man getting 3 waves is not that bad.

  6. #626
    I'm still in assume everyone means 25 man unless they state otherwise mode, I guess we should have established this earlier.

    In 25 mans none of the things you mentioned matter in apart from 2. It's still killable if you mess up the first intermission, but then you have to kite adds until p4.

    The difficulty curve is way off, garrosh feels like a punching bag after siegecrafter and paragons.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Well, I was speaking from a 10 man PoV, dont know about 25 man. There are 400% more guilds progressing Garrosh in 10 than 25 man at the moment so was making the assumption that the initial post was about 10 man considering what a pushover he is in 25 man.
    Ah yes I was suspecting that, based on your comments about 3 waves in p1 and about the second whirl in p2. In 25-player, skipping the second whirl in p2 at low gear levels was unthinkable. The DPS checks to beat these benchmarks are significantly looser in 10-player than in 25-player (which is not to say that the fight overall is necessarily easier).
    Last edited by Aseyhe; 2014-01-27 at 07:24 PM.

  8. #628
    I've been avoiding responding in this topic and just reading, but I'm bored at work today, so figured I'd throw in.... Anyone shocked by the nerf to the last bosses hasn't paid attention to previous end of expac tiers. I'm currently 10/14 HC. Would I liked to have cleared it before nerfs? Absolutely! However, raiding 6 hours a week over 2 days doesn't afford amazing progression. I accept that. Overall I'm content with our progression thus far considering the time constraints. The fact I've not cleared the instance this late into the patch is my fault alone. It's at the point that Blizzard has allowed the truly hardcore guilds to clear it pre-nerf and now wants it slightly more accessible to others. What this change does for my guild is make it that much more possible for us to go 14/14 before WoD hits. Yes, our kill would be post nerf, but it would still be more than the vast majority of raiders have accomplished.

    All content becomes easier at some point. Blizzard would just like more paying subs to see all of the content before the xpac hits. I'm all for it.

    This post might not have accurately reflected my line of thought. I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.

  9. #629
    IMO the nerfs were not that big(besides Thok)... if you are still progressing on Siege or Paragons... you still going to do the same thing you were doing...Just now you can avoid random Deaths from BS RNG...

  10. #630
    ITT: "I did it first! Neener neener neener!" "I was cool before you were cool! Neener neener neener!".

    TL;DR: Children.

    Infracted; Post constructively.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2014-01-29 at 06:22 AM.

  11. #631
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketsauce View Post
    ITT: "I did it first! Neener neener neener!" "I was cool before you were cool! Neener neener neener!".

    TL;DR: Children.
    I'm sure "we *totally* would have killed it before the nerfs, but we were 'building our core', screw you Blizzard" is far more mature.

  12. #632
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    These nerfs were needed imo. I'm coming from a 12/14 heroic perspective, with a Klaxxii kill quite close. We managed our Blackfuse kill before these nerfs, and I'll definitly say, repeat kills have about the same level of difficulty. If you're still progressing on Blackfuse, mines going boom, standing in fire, poor dps, poor tanking, poor positioning, and derped sawblades will absolutly still wipe your raid. For those thinking they are going to be progressing on a stripped down version of these two bosses your wrong. Yes, they are noticeable "easier", but only from a point of view that you won't have quite as many wipes because three of your raiders took one tick of superheated, during an overload, during a magnet, while a melee derped a detonate. We started progression on Klaxxii before the changes, and are working on finishing it now. The ONLY thing that changed was we aren't getting nearly as many Multishot + Fiery Edge + whatever the hell else combo deaths that are literally just globals that you have no control over.

    Be happy these weren't DS type nerfs, which just gutted the content. You're still going to see a very very close representation of the bosses that were killed by faster progressed guilds. You've just been given a little nudge by blizzard, which is not a bad thing. Honestly if you're not in the top 10, the only race you are running in is the race in your own mind. Be happy you're getting to see content a vast majority of the player base could only dream of seeing.
    Sinthetik, Blood DK, BM Monk, GM, Exiled From Hell, US Premiere Daytime Progression Guild. 7/7 Mythic HM, 10/10 Mythic BRF. 12/13 Mythic, 13/13 Heroic HFC.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinthetik View Post
    These nerfs were needed imo. I'm coming from a 12/14 heroic perspective, with a Klaxxii kill quite close. We managed our Blackfuse kill before these nerfs, and I'll definitly say, repeat kills have about the same level of difficulty. If you're still progressing on Blackfuse, mines going boom, standing in fire, poor dps, poor tanking, poor positioning, and derped sawblades will absolutly still wipe your raid. For those thinking they are going to be progressing on a stripped down version of these two bosses your wrong. Yes, they are noticeable "easier", but only from a point of view that you won't have quite as many wipes because three of your raiders took one tick of superheated, during an overload, during a magnet, while a melee derped a detonate. We started progression on Klaxxii before the changes, and are working on finishing it now. The ONLY thing that changed was we aren't getting nearly as many Multishot + Fiery Edge + whatever the hell else combo deaths that are literally just globals that you have no control over.

    Be happy these weren't DS type nerfs, which just gutted the content. You're still going to see a very very close representation of the bosses that were killed by faster progressed guilds. You've just been given a little nudge by blizzard, which is not a bad thing. Honestly if you're not in the top 10, the only race you are running in is the race in your own mind. Be happy you're getting to see content a vast majority of the player base could only dream of seeing.
    I agree with most of this with one thing. The nerf to the belt health on siege didn't need to be anywhere nearly as severe as it was. 20% is HUGE. We killed siege pre nerf in 139 pulls, and I'd say about the last ~50 pulls came down to a few things wiping us, belt people dying due to being forced through fire, belt mechanics living at sub 300k.

    A 5% nerf to the health of the belt mechanics would have been better. 20% is just insane imo.

    Also 10m paragons is a joke now. 39 pulls over one raid night and the fight was dead for us. Fight would have been noticeably harder with fire lines and multi shot hitting harder (although wiping to random uncontrollable raid damage is dumb).

  14. #634
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    You're probably looking at belt from the perspective of well geared group that had little issues with doing >6 mln per person. Certain classes/those who didn't get their trinkets/weapons yet had more problems with that and needed that extra edges. They will most likely still need 2 people in 10 man (yes, I know fully geared players with all cooldowns could solo some of them, we aren't talking about those). 25 man on deep farm will drop one for sure, but for learning stage, you'd use one person as "backup" anyway.

    It's easier, but not that much easier outside farm. Belt team will still have to learn their part during progress, you'll still have to learn the timers and proper placement.

    And I believe Paragons 10 man were already "a joke"? Never seen them in that format, but it seems to be a fairly popular opinion. Meanwhile, Hisek + Iyokuk was highly annoying in 25, with fire lines *everywhere* and inability to spread properly without screwing yourself during Aim. If Hisek was being a dick and decided to Multishot someone without defensive cooldowns for >400k, they'd die - seeing how it's somewhat "difficult" to react to such spikes if there's (12? 15?) people taking a lot of damage at the same time.

    Rest of the fight is completely unchanged and will keep wiping people anyway. This was simply highly irritating but not *that* important part.

    Edit: I wonder how many tears will flow once Blizzard nerfs Garrosh in 10 man. They already mentioned his hitpoints at some point, so it will probably happen in several weeks. Some time later they might turn to 25 version. And it will *still* be a huge surprise and another thread made by someone who *nearly* killed him but was actually 4 bosses behind.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2014-01-29 at 11:15 AM.

  15. #635
    Edit: I wonder how many tears will flow once Blizzard nerfs Garrosh in 10 man. They already mentioned his hitpoints at some point, so it will probably happen in several weeks. Some time later they might turn to 25 version. And it will *still* be a huge surprise and another thread made by someone who *nearly* killed him but was actually 4 bosses behind.
    Source? cause H garrosh 10 is seriously overtuned compared to 25man loot pinata mode, blizzard shoulda adjusted his hp by 10% a long time ago if they looked at the discrepancy.

  16. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Source? cause H garrosh 10 is seriously overtuned compared to 25man loot pinata mode, blizzard shoulda adjusted his hp by 10% a long time ago if they looked at the discrepancy.
    https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...98270315761664

    Nothing definite, but he does mention that 10 man hitpoints would be the first thing to nerf if they touch him at all.

  17. #637
    Even a 1% adjustment to health pools would be massive on Garrosh 10H.

    The fight is basically a series of harsh DPS checks, with small coordination checks here and there: Can you kill the siege engineer with 1 dps? Can you push before the 3rd wave of adds spawn in P1? Can you clean up temple (15 adds x 3.6m health) in <25 sec? Can you get Garrosh below 30% in the first half of P2? (If not, you have to do Terrace, enjoy your wipes. Otherwise you can afk 60s and regen all your trinket procs) Can you push Garrosh before the final empowered whirling of the second half of P2? Can you push Garrosh again before the synchronized desecrate/MC ~85 seconds after P3 starts?

    If you fail any of these checks, it's probably a wipe, and certainly a LOT harder to survive reliably.

    Progress on this fight has come in the form of optimizing dps without compromising survivability. Giving people even 6m free damage in Phase 2 would make a huge difference in how hard it is to make P3, and an even bigger difference on how hard it is to make P4 before everything goes to hell after Emp Whirling 2.

  18. #638
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    The fight is basically a series of harsh DPS checks, with small coordination checks here and there: Can you kill the siege engineer with 1 dps? Can you push before the 3rd wave of adds spawn in P1? Can you clean up temple (15 adds x 3.6m health) in <25 sec? Can you get Garrosh below 30% in the first half of P2? (If not, you have to do Terrace, enjoy your wipes. Otherwise you can afk 60s and regen all your trinket procs) Can you push Garrosh before the final empowered whirling of the second half of P2? Can you push Garrosh again before the synchronized desecrate/MC ~85 seconds after P3 starts?

    If you fail any of these checks, it's probably a wipe, and certainly a LOT harder to survive reliably.
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.

  19. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.
    Please don't exaggerate.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Kinda sad that Garrosh is this lenient with the gear you have now. Having Jade Serpent last longer than 20 seconds used to be a No-No and 30% when Terrace starts? Our raid leader would have payed airplane tickets to France for out entire raid team so he could legally decapitate us if the boss was on 30%, he was not happy unless it was sub 20%, and we still did terrace.

    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.

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