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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoriesLA View Post
    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.
    We certainly didn't have anything near 20% on our first kill. Maybe 30% if we were lucky. And this was an early November kill.

  2. #642
    Nerfs shouldn't happen imo just because people complain about stuff being to hard they shouldn't make it easier because it makes it boring for the dedicated that are good

  3. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by zodjsp View Post
    Nerfs shouldn't happen imo just because people complain about stuff being to hard they shouldn't make it easier because it makes it boring for the dedicated that are good
    "The dedicated that are good" have already finished that content. Those slightly less dedicated that are actually affected by the nerfs had plenty of time to do it. Maybe they would have done it if they only had more time. Maybe they wouldn't. And then there's those who haven't even seen the fights, but complain the loudest.

  4. #644
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    @Britishbubba, after reading what you wrote I'd have to concede that point. While the other Blackfuse nerfs were fine, the belt hp nerf was definitly a bit over the top. I can definitly remember my belt team commenting how it was a joke now compared when we got our kill. We literally dropped two people from each belt team. They probably could have gone with at most a 10% nerf, and even that may have been too much. The majority of our belt wipes were due to being short sub 2% damage on the weapon.
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  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarithus View Post
    I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

    However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

    Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

    Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?
    All I can say about this is, if you want to be a boss and kill things without nerfs, then play better and kill them before the nerfs.

    If you think you're facing the same challenge today as you would've had you cleared SoO HM in week 1 you're very deluded. Every week you raid, you are getting more gear and making your next raid easier. Raids nerf themselves.

    Nerfs are put in place so struggling guilds can get over hurdles in their progression. You are one of those guilds. You weren't quite good enough, because you haven't finished yet. Suck it up.

    Do raids at your own pace (potentially this will mean post-nerfs) or get better and/or join a serious progression guild and kill them when they're the most difficult, ie as few weeks after release as possible. Those are your options.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2014-01-31 at 03:58 AM.
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  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheoriesLA View Post
    Sub 20% before terrace? I've never heard of October/November kills getting that low. That's unreal DPS if its true. Kudos.
    Most of our terraces was around the 20-23% mark. But our record was to 16 or 17% I believe, getting it to 19% happened probably 50% of the times towards the end of progression. The goal was always to see those 20% execute spells light up before entering terrace.

    I believe we were the 4th lowest guild in terms of item level on Garrosh (568), but our dps was insane and I think that a lot of the sub 570 ilvl kills pushed it below 20.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    Please don't exaggerate.
    How is that an exaggeration? Check the first 20 kills and see how many of them had Garrosh at 30% and skipped terrace.
    Getting below 20% was our raid leader being a strong leader, realizing our potential and pushing the team to its limits, but I can assure you that almot every team used to aim for 25% atleast.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-01-31 at 06:39 AM.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Most of our terraces was around the 20-23% mark. But our record was to 16 or 17% I believe, getting it to 19% happened probably 50% of the times towards the end of progression. The goal was always to see those 20% execute spells light up before entering terrace.
    Lots of videos on YT with mid-november or early december kills contradict your account. Common percentages are in the mid-to-upper 20% for terrace when not one-healing. Without disc priest I would venture to say cracking 25% would be pretty daunting back then. JT times are almost universally between 20 and 24 seconds--19 seconds or below is exceedingly rare. Going below 20 seconds can actually be counterproductive because the amount of uptime on Garrosh isn't significantly increased, while the healing mana burn rate during Annhilate is the highest point of pretty much any during the fight: raid is taking about 900k dps during this time.

    In any case, ask yourself how your post is relevant at all, besides fluffing your own ego with how much better you are than everyone else. It doesn't have any bearing on the discussion; in 10H, the DPS thresholds you have to make without taking extreme measures to survive are as I said: <3 waves of melee adds, <25 seconds in JT, <30% in the first half of P2 for afk-terrace strategy, <3 empowered whirlings before P3, and then push to p4 before everything goes to shit in p3.

    In summary: nobody cares that your guild did better while wearing cataclysm blues and using heirloom trinkets.
    Last edited by Jurik; 2014-01-31 at 09:57 AM.

  8. #648
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    If you haven't downed Garrosh heroic already then it's obvious you need these nerfs, and any future ones, to do it.

  9. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
    Lots of videos on YT with mid-november or early december kills contradict your account. Common percentages are in the mid-to-upper 20% for terrace when not one-healing. Without disc priest I would venture to say cracking 25% would be pretty daunting back then. JT times are almost universally between 20 and 24 seconds--19 seconds or below is exceedingly rare. Going below 20 seconds can actually be counterproductive because the amount of uptime on Garrosh isn't significantly increased, while the healing mana burn rate during Annhilate is the highest point of pretty much any during the fight: raid is taking about 900k dps during this time.

    In any case, ask yourself how your post is relevant at all, besides fluffing your own ego with how much better you are than everyone else. It doesn't have any bearing on the discussion; in 10H, the DPS thresholds you have to make without taking extreme measures to survive are as I said: <3 waves of melee adds, <25 seconds in JT, <30% in the first half of P2 for afk-terrace strategy, <3 empowered whirlings before P3, and then push to p4 before everything goes to shit in p3.

    In summary: nobody cares that your guild did better while wearing cataclysm blues and using heirloom trinkets.
    I was merely stating how silly the boss is now if it is possible to have him at 30%+ and skip terrace. That the dps check is extremely leniant now. You were the one that went all crazy over it.

    Also I was referring to october/early nov kills, not december kills.

  10. #650
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    Speaking as someone who has had a terrible start to MoP raiding forming a new team isnt easy it takes time. You cant expect to perform at a stellar level when you have just made a raid team its like pugging if you arent familiar with each other. My guild formed 25man hc at the start of ToT and i can safely say we have like 8 original raid members left to this day. You cant blame blizzard for nerfing things so far into SoO. While its not great for the guild that kill it post nerf i guar(dam)ntee you that you will find it hard regardless of nerfs. No boss will fall over the second you enter because its been slightly nerfed. Im sure you will still wipe to belt issues on siege like 30-40 times and still lose someone to paragons for a mechanic which hasnt been nerfed. Remember blizzard didnt nerf the fights into the ground they just made it slightly easier, its still the last 3 bosses of lets face it a long raid tier (14 bosses). Since this is the last raid of the expac traditionally it will get nerfed over time so more and more players will see the end game hc fights. Tbh i dont remember a time where gear has been an issue this entire expansion. Not once have we wiped to enrage (well nourshen hc and thats because of the mechanic in itself) and the whole let people get gear to natural nerf argument is redundant because no amount of gear is going to save you from dying to chomp or dying on the belt. Yes its nerfed, yes you cant kill it non nerfed anymore oh well keep playing you will still enjoy it and tbh no one cares if you killed it prenerf unless you are some super high end world 100 guild and even then saying that they wouldnt be caught dead killing a boss post nerf so meh enjoy your new guild and just have fun build a stable team and look to WoD to cement your name in wow history (bla bla inspirational speach crap).

  11. #651
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    I'm assuming firefly33 is talking about 10man numbers right?

  12. #652
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    You said this in another thread as well, but... why would you ever want to do Jade Temple below 20 energy? Where is the gain by doing this? Sub 25 should be just okay.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    You said this in another thread as well, but... why would you ever want to do Jade Temple below 20 energy? Where is the gain by doing this? Sub 25 should be just okay.
    Our first kill was Jade temple 23? ToES 50+ and emp whirlings before 10% an 2 after.

  14. #654
    We are very very near a kill on Garrosh with our 25m group(best attempt is 17% P4, wiped to the dangerous 4th malice ), here's our DPS points so far:

    P1: Sometimes we get the 2nd Wolf rider, sometimes we don't
    1st Transition: 20-23 energy
    P2.1: We go to 2nd Trans with boss at around 25-26%
    2nd Transition: We use the AFK strat as DPS is not an issue
    P2.2: We can push the boss before 2nd Whirlwind, but choose not to do so because of people's CDs(2 min CDs would be delayed for P3 start then)
    P3: We push the boss before 2nd Whirlwind and stack on boss for 1st one

    We could be doing much better on the DPS, but we have a few bad apples and recruiting isn't just a magical thing always. Come WoD it should be better as we and all 25 guilds have to pretty much cut 5 people off their roster. We killed Klaxxi HC on the 16th of January, and I've seen that a lot of guilds have been progressing on him since December and still haven't killed. P4 is a joke for this fight, once you are done with 4th Malice, it's GG basically.

  15. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Well well, some of those are a bit bigger than I thought. 20% of Siegecrafter belt weapons is quite a bit - definitely one less person in 25 man. 20% off Multishot is also significant, Hisek will be far less of a pita during the edges. Still, it won't change much, except remove some random deaths.
    Indeed. I do think Blackfuse will be FAR easier now though it will still be a challenge. The other nerfs are quite insignificant.

  16. #656
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Man View Post
    I'm assuming firefly33 is talking about 10man numbers right?
    Yes. 10 man/10chars

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlzone View Post
    You said this in another thread as well, but... why would you ever want to do Jade Temple below 20 energy? Where is the gain by doing this? Sub 25 should be just okay.
    Before overgearing Garrosh it was pretty much a requirement. It was possible without but it was like shooting yourself in the foot.
    Sub 20 was maybe not needed, but 22~ at max. Every second counted and not gettig 50 energy in ToES was insanely helpful. It was about giving yourself more leeway and time inside ToES aswell as gettig those extra seconds of dps time on a boss that is nothing but a dps race.
    Nowadays it is of course not needed, but if you can manage it is really helpful. I dont have experience in progression garrosh in 570+, so I am not entirely sure how leniant the encounter becomes then, what is acceptable slack and what is not.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-01-31 at 11:15 AM.

  17. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    P2.1: We go to 2nd Trans with boss at around 25-26%
    2nd Transition: We use the AFK strat as DPS is not an issue
    P2.2: We can push the boss before 2nd Whirlwind, but choose not to do so because of people's CDs(2 min CDs would be delayed for P3 start then)
    Wait, you start from ~45% and could get him before second empowered whirl? We got to 23-43 at some point, but it was still too slow to make it - unless he'd do Desecrate first, maybe. Didn't feel like making all 3 tanks stand in Annihilate to make up for it, not worth the stress and risk.

    And it seems that 10 man dps checks are quite harsh, but if you beat and outgear them, you can break the fight in other ways Sounds about right.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2014-01-31 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Wait, you start from ~45% and could get him before second empowered whirl? We got to 23-43 at some point, but it was still too slow to make it - unless he'd do Desecrate first, maybe. Didn't feel like making all 3 tanks stand in Annihilate to make up for it, not worth the stress and risk.

    And it seems that 10 man dps checks are quite harsh, but if you beat and outgear them, you can break the fight in other ways Sounds about right.
    Yeah he is at 45% after 2nd Trans ends and we can still make it before 2nd Whirlwind sometimes, but people's 2 min CDs line up with start of P3 + Lust if we wait it out, and P3 is the DPS check, not P2.

  19. #659
    Getting sub-50 energy for the second half of P2 isn't really that useful. It changes the damage requirement on MCs by about 1m, but has no other effect. Immunity to CCs is immaterial--those MCs basically explode even when empowered. You still get empowered whirling which is the thing that makes P2 hard: you can do 60+% of Garrosh's health after JT and before ToES, but push only ~35% post-ToES in almost the same length of time. And the only thing that should be killing you in P2 is people screwing up empowered whirling.

  20. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunvor View Post
    Indeed. I do think Blackfuse will be FAR easier now though it will still be a challenge. The other nerfs are quite insignificant.
    It's a lot easier if you have experience on him. There are still lots of ways to fail on that boss. Failing on belts, bad strat, not slowing mines, people getting hit by stuff, etc.

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