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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    Ah I see, you have missed all of the clarifications in the last bajillion pages. No, the OP doesn't like that people get to look cool and wear the models of tier epics from doing LFR. Essentially they are angry that amateurs can wear PGA licensed material at the clubhouse. Sorry, but that's honestly the shallow argument that has been ranted about for the last few pages.
    I LOVE the idea of LFR. Giving the opportunity to everyone see the content is in itself beautiful.
    People don't seem to understand that is NOT about caring if casuals are wearing the same design of heroic gear.
    Its about the rewards of the Heroic raiding being the same of the LFR gear...let me try to explain how Im feeling:

    Amateur League: 1st Place Prize - 900 950 Dollars
    Pro Leagues : 1st Place Prize - 1 million Dollars

    Why should I put myself trough such a big punishment, facing Myke Tyson/ Rocky Balboa on the ring nearly killing myself out there...if the amateur leagues give almost the same prize money ^^ But again...this is how I perceive it because I don't care about the mount/achievement and slightly different colors.
    I really believe that if the gear dropping in LFR had the same ilvl but the designs of the 5 man heroics gear...people would have all the incentive in the world to keep raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veritus7 View Post
    Allow me to enlighten this thread with something:

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ou-still-do-it

    Notice this poll. If everyone did LFR just for the experience, this poll would be drastically different, but the data here suggests otherwise. People do LFR for the gear. Bottom line.
    < This I think is the equivalent of speaking the word "Voldemort" in Harry Potter. The SIMPLE TRUTH no one admits is that no one is doing LFR for its main purpose which was to see the content (said by devs and even titled it "tourist mode").
    They are doing it to get the epics...and not only epics, but the best looking tier this game as to offer. The same design of normal, flex, heroic or any other content in game. Same designs.
    The very basic source of incentive in this game died right here, at least for me...but I cant speak for everyone. It seems some people find the final achivment/mount an outstanding reward. Not me, I could never become a flex/normal/heroic raider just for the sake of an achievement and mount.
    Last edited by Shadowpunkz; 2014-01-23 at 02:55 AM.

  2. #682
    Some people, myself included, just preferred the original model. The one where older content did not get tossed aside with each new patch, because of catch up mechanics. The one where you still went on a journey with your team, and even if you didn't get to the top tier for months it didn't matter because the fun part was getting there.

    Other people like the new system, where you defeat the same bosses on multiple settings. I mean, it's more or less the same in a lot of ways, but a lot more repetitive.

    It really comes down to preference. But it's okay to disagree. I don't think there's any 'one true' method one way or the other. It's just about what you like personally. For me the game was more fun originally because, as Preach says in that video, it didn't matter if you didn't see the top level content, because the game felt a lot more epic when it took effort to get to there.

    Just my preference.
    Originally Posted by Tigole
    I'm not so sure endgame players would like the face of the game if everyone had instant access to all of the content. There is something to be said for progression and the sense of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, we have to be careful not to create a brick wall for new people, but I think there is a balance to be struck here.

  3. #683
    Quote Originally Posted by brok3nh3lix View Post
    This, blizzard has stated to their investors (who lying to could cause a whole mess of legal issues), that they are not seeing significant increases in the rate of player loss, but rather they are seeing less new players as time goes on. They have always had a constant churn of players, just there is less new players coming in. Among other reasons mentioned above an a few others, people fail to realize that wow is well past its peak in market awareness saturation or brand awareness saturation, Its peak in the area happened back some where around BC, maby wrath. This brand/market awareness is the % of people who are aware of the product. Most every one in the US/Europe and wows main markets will at least know that wow is a video game, probably know its online in some way, and that it involves a lot of time. These people have generally made the decision to play or not, and the amount of available people they could possibly attract new to the game will diminish over time as it is inverse to the amount of people who are brand aware. No amount of marketing will have a significant effect at this point in that regard. Marketing at this point is aimed at reminding people who have left that the game is here, in hopes they might want to come back. To expect them to keep the same number of new incoming players the same as BC or Wrath is ridiculous and unfounded. Player retention rates havn't changed dramatically, and its also ridiculous to think that after nearly 10 years that there would not be players who simply move on, no matter how good the game is. If they didn't make many of the changes they had, and stayed stagnant in the BC era design philosophy, they likely would have far fewer subs than they do now (though we cant accurately measure this because it is not the case, just as we can not accurately say that they would have more subs now if they had for the same reason).

    add this to every thing else above, such as aging player base with new priorities, market shifts such as the influx of high quality, F2P mmos. Regional changes such as Asian markets where the profit model isn't even the same, and they have games that are not available here that are also popular competing with wow. Its death by 1000 cuts, not a few big ones, and its inevitable. I find it amazing that they have the player base they still do while still using a sub based model in their primary markets, after this long of time. People point to LoL and its huge numbers, but there they count every one who logs in once in a month or what ever, and there's no cost to that player to only log in once a month, for wow, the cost is the same as if they logged in every day, not to mention its unclear how they count people with multiple smurf accounts, which again, costs them nothing.
    This post is so true and it will be lost in a sea of ignorant posts by people grinding their personal axes or indulging in absurd nostalgia.

    Like tears in the rain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    This post is so true and it will be lost in a sea of ignorant posts by people grinding their personal axes or indulging in absurd nostalgia.

    Like tears in the rain.
    And now watch as the subs continue to fall. And I'll watch as you flail around for an excuse to justify it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    You can prove anything with facts!

    I think you're falling prey to something a lot of people experience, extrapolating out from the people you knew or played with without realising that you mostly hung around with a select subsection of the playerbase.
    Not really, you just had to watch trade to know. If people weren't raiding they were PvPing, leveling or working their way up to raiding.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    TBH I have a hard time believing noone raided to begin with. It's what Bliz would lead us to believe with their stats. But anyone who played back then knows that raiding/PuGing was quite popular, even if it was just Kara.
    You can prove anything with facts!

    I think you're falling prey to something a lot of people experience, extrapolating out from the people you knew or played with without realising that you mostly hung around with a select subsection of the playerbase.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    And now watch as the subs continue to fall. And I'll watch as you flail around in an excuse to justify it.
    I have to justify why a 10 year old game that costs $180 per year to play is losing subs?

    And here I thought basic common sense could do that for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I have to justify why a 10 year old game that costs $180 per year to play is losing subs?

    And here I thought basic common sense could do that for me.
    See you didn't actually prove anything there. My response could be that it had nearly 4million more subs in its older style. And that has more substance behind it than what you're saying, which is speculation. The truth is we don't know either way.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    See you didn't actually prove anything there. My response could be that it had nearly 4million more subs in its older style. And that has more substance behind it than what you're saying, which is speculation. The truth is we don't know either way.
    It had 4 million more subs when it was younger. You didn't prove anything either, you've just rephrased "the subs have gone down".

    Only Blizzard has "proof". We can only speculate. But if you think that a game that's almost a decade old can continue to grow in the current MMO market, with a sub model no less, you're batshit crazy. Name another game that costs $15 a month, is 10 years old and the size of WoW.

    Here, look at this:



    That's WoW. Now look at the total subs tracked by that website for all games:



    Look at that plateau.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    See you didn't actually prove anything there. My response could be that it had nearly 4million more subs in its older style. And that has more substance behind it than what you're saying, which is speculation. The truth is we don't know either way.
    No we do literally know. The game is old, the market is now saturated, people that didn't have options beyond WoW have options, people have grown up in life, people have moved on. You act like WoW is a ghost town. It's still the most populated MMO in the world for a reason even with a sub, the game is completely fine as is, if anything it just continues to improve. If you have a problem with the current state go play on one of those vanilla private servers and see how fast your rose-tinted goggles fall off.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    No we do literally know. The game is old, the market is now saturated, people that didn't have options beyond WoW have options, people have grown up in life, people have moved on. You act like WoW is a ghost town. It's still the most populated MMO in the world for a reason even with a sub, the game is completely fine as is, if anything it just continues to improve. If you have a problem with the current state go play on one of those vanilla private servers and see how fast your rose-tinted goggles fall off.
    lol I play a BC server more than retail ones. Nice try though. Might I suggest YOU go do it?

    No. We don't know. Because retail is no longer like it was, therefore we can't know how successful WoW would be. Unless you have access to other dimensions where they didn't change the design philosophy, not even Blizzard knows.

    WARNING: It is against the guidelines to discuss /or hint to the use of private servers.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2014-01-23 at 10:44 AM.

  10. #690
    Bloodsail Admiral Zanthos's Avatar
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    Great vid, alot of valid points, mostly about bleeding characters, this is the first time I have thought maybe lfr should go and just keep flexi.

  11. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    lol I play a BC server more than retail ones. Nice try though. Might I suggest YOU go do it?

    No. We don't know. Because retail is no longer like it was, therefore we can't know how successful WoW would be. Unless you have access to other dimensions where they didn't change the design philosophy, not even Blizzard knows.
    Of course they don't, but common sense dictates that a game 10 years old in a market that isn't exactly huge (comparatively speaking) would naturally lose subs.

    Even Ghostcrawler said there's not as many new players anymore, which to me suggests that most of the MMO market have played WoW at some point in time.

    As you say we lack appropriate data to draw a proper conclusion. I wish Blizzard would release number of new players per month over the last 10 years and number of players who quit per month over the last 10 years, it'd make these debates a lot more interesting.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post

    Amateur League: 1st Place Prize - 900 950 Dollars
    Pro Leagues : 1st Place Prize - 1 million Dollars

    You have missed the point entirely. Easy to do when Mike Preach is involved (more on that later).

    If you are an LFR raider, then a full set of LFR gear feels like 1 million Dollars.... not the 900k you mention.
    If you are a Heroic Raider, a full set of LFR gear feels like about $1.50.

    Drive your Audi to Disneyworld this summer and you might feel special. Drive it to the Hamptons and you'll feel like the Help.
    Social games are over flowing with Status Symbols, gear being a favorite in WoW. But it's status is only relevant to the company you keep.


    Nearly all of Mike Preaches' videos are based on a flawed or false premise. Makes for a good video... but 100% hyperbole. Think of him as the Rush Limbaugh of WoW.
    No-one plays like he did in that video... though many appear to. Let me explain.
    If you do Normal or Heroic raiding and go to LFR and do nothing you know you are being carried. You are only there as a stepping stone to the *your* version of the status symbol or sense of achievement. You get nothing out of the LFR experience except some temporary gear. You get to drive an Audi to the Maybach dealership.
    If you are a beginner or someone who doesn't have the time / commitment / interest to thoroughly learn their class then that bad performance may well be emotional equivalent of Server First boss kill or top 5 WoL rank. So while by your standards it's bad play... to the beginner, he's a Superhero.

    The beginner wins the game in LFR. The pro-wannabe wins the game in a Heroic raid.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    Of course they don't, but common sense dictates that a game 10 years old in a market that isn't exactly huge (comparatively speaking) would naturally lose subs.

    Even Ghostcrawler said there's not as many new players anymore, which to me suggests that most of the MMO market have played WoW at some point in time.

    As you say we lack appropriate data to draw a proper conclusion. I wish Blizzard would release number of new players per month over the last 10 years and number of players who quit per month over the last 10 years, it'd make these debates a lot more interesting.
    I'm not denying that it wouldn't of or hasn't lost subs due to age. I'm just saying we can't know if it would of kept or lost more subs with the old design philosophy. On the one hand you can say people would leave because they don't want to spend time like that anymore. But you could also say that it would keep people because it had a constant carrot on a stick. Where as today's WoW, it may be more accessible, but it's much easier to pick up and drop. And much easier to burn out on.
    So again, my point is that saying the design philosophy shift was necessary is just speculation.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    I'm not denying that it wouldn't of or hasn't lost subs due to age. I'm just saying we can't know if it would of kept or lost more subs with the old design philosophy. On the one hand you can say people would leave because they don't want to spend time like that anymore. But you could also say that it would keep people because it had a constant carrot on a stick. Where as today's WoW, it may be more accessible, but it's much easier to pick up and drop. And much easier to burn out on.
    So again, my point is that saying the design philosophy shift was necessary is just speculation.
    Your argument is basically we can't prove that it wasn't aliens so clearly it must be aliens. When all common sense points toward it being age and saturation of the market. Yet still "I don't like the direction the game has gone so it must be that because I'm so smart with all of my metrics because I run a company that depends on the success of my product"

    <snip>

    Mod note: Memes are against the rules so please don't post them. If the link comes from a site called memegenerator just don't post it. [ML]
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2014-01-23 at 04:05 AM.

  15. #695
    I think give or take a few the numbers would be similar, and I believe if this game was anything like it was in vanilla right now. It would be dead or close to it.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    Your argument is basically we can't prove that it wasn't aliens so clearly it must be aliens. When all common sense points toward it being age and saturation of the market. Yet still "I don't like the direction the game has gone so it must be that because I'm so smart with all of my metrics because I run a company that depends on the success of my product"
    If that's what you need to tell yourself. The fact is that the subs started dropping immediately after they completely casualized everything. You're the one saying it was aliens by saying that the casualization kept subs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonecloak View Post
    I think give or take a few the numbers would be similar, and I believe if this game was anything like it was in vanilla right now. It would be dead or close to it.
    Noone is saying vanilla and noone us saying updates wouldn't have been made. We're saying it could have survived without completely selling out.
    Last edited by Phumbles; 2014-01-23 at 02:05 AM.

  17. #697
    Scarab Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    It's highly amusing to watch the users on these boards struggle to come up with more and more inane metaphors and allegories to underscore their flawed lines of argument. Instead of simply applying logic, and acknowledging a differing opinion as such as well as appreciating the information that springs from a discourse.

    In the end, most just keep trying to beat each other at simple hyperbole and weak sarcasm in attempts to ridicule each other, barely having anything to do with the point of the thread or the mentioned video.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    If that's what you need to tell yourself. The fact is that the subs started dropping immediately after they completely casualized everything. You're the one saying it was aliens by saying that the casualization kept subs.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Noone is saying vanilla and noone us saying updates wouldn't have been made. We're saying it could have survived without completely selling out.
    I wasn't accusing anyone in particular. Just giving my opinion. I think it's pretty natural what is happening, and I'm sure wow will go on for much longer than we expect. It just won't be the mega phenomenon it used to be.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    If that's what you need to tell yourself. The fact is that the subs started dropping immediately after they completely casualized everything. You're the one saying it was aliens by saying that the casualization kept subs.
    Last I checked, subs dropped because of a massive feedback of Cataclysm just sucking overall, and even Blizzard admitted to not putting much effort into it because of revamping the leveling process, even just look at what was giving out each patch.
    4.0- The leveling zones and raids, with like 5 dailies for each hub, whereas MoP had just as many raids, the leveling zones, and a lot more dailies for each hub. Doesn't matter if you hate dailies, it's still content and work they put it.
    4.1- Revamped Troll dungeons, and a small questline. MoP's 5.1 was a massive questing hub.
    4.2- Molten Front and Firelands. Not too much of a difference from MoP's 5.2, Isle of Thunder and Throne of Thunder, but it 5.2 also came with the Isle of Giants, and the Isle of Thunder had a lot more on it than Molten Front.
    4.3- Dragon Soul. Honestly, I bet some people would be willing to say that sucked just as much as 5.3, but 4.3 also had 3 heroic dungeons, so I guess it's a bit better.
    And there was no 4.4

    Honestly, you can blame casualization if you want, but you can't ignore that Cata overall was considered a failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    Why should I put myself trough such a big punishment, facing Myke Tyson/ Rocky Balboa on the ring nearly killing myself out there...if the amateur leagues give almost the same prize money ^^ But again...this is how I perceive it because I don't care about the mount/achievement and slightly different colors. .
    Honestly, people said it before, so I think it needs repeating. Maybe LFR/Flex is where you should be then. You have no motivation to continue, and that's fine, but obviously others feel differently, otherwise there would be no one in normal. There is enough motivation overall though, those who really cared about showing off their gear will most likely still have a reason to push through normal and heroic, for the upgrades. Then there's the people who like mounts and achievements, which lo and behold, normal and heroic both have their own ones for clearing it, same for titles! Then, there's the heirloom weapons, that will carry you through WoD with a good weapon until level 100, that drop from flex/normal/heroic, each difficulty having a better version.

    Also remember, at the end of the day, Blizzard is a company. While they may mess up a bit, their goal is to make money, and they have tons of information about WoW that we don't, and they have employees that their job is to make sure they make money. Basically, they're a lot more knowledgeable than we are about this, and they have more experience.

  20. #700
    Your first statement contradicts what you have been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowpunkz View Post
    People are leaving because in their minds they have the best looking rewards ingame.
    There's your contradiction. If people are leaving because they have in their minds the best looking gear, why do people such as myself transmog the gear? It isn't because it is about how cool looking the gear looks. You're connecting best looking gear to LFR stating that LFR has the best looking gear. Now if your goal in the game is to get LFR gear cause you like its looks. That that is MORE than fine. There isn't anything wrong with this goal. HOWEVER this type of person probably wouldn't raid anymore if there was or wasn't LFR UNLESS they want that tiers gear. So what is it, people are leaving because they have the best looking gear which you have connected to LFR with previous posts or people want to transmog because they want to look unique? It can't be both.

    Im not saying I know everything, I just know well the very basic instincts of players because I am one myself. Those mounts and achievments for me alone really mean nothing. I would never even step in a normal raid because I have no incentive to do it.
    I can say the same and come up with a different outcome, just by this thread alone. You are about how gear looks. That is fine, there are players who don't care about how gear looks and transmog which like players like me. You have players who are mount collectors and there is incentive for them, same with title collectors. Now if you care about how gear looks, don't even bother to raid past LFR cause most of the gear is recolor. I am not 100% sure if there is unique gear just for Heroic. If there is, that is great. I do believe that Heroic players should get a tad more. There are so many different players, that you don't know what the majority of players are. I will never state my instincts of what players want as fact. It seems like that is what you're doing.

    I guarantee you that people always want to show off unique/ different gear and that would be more than "normal kind of wow incentive" to continue playing this game....hell this is what wow as always been about. PVEwise as always been about siting my butt on the city showing of my gear I just got from boss X raiding with my buddys and guildies.
    Yea there will be those people. However there you are again stating opinion as fact. You're telling me that at one point 12 million people wanted more than "normal". Wrong because you don't know 12 million people, you don't know 10 million people, you don't know 7 million people. I watch a streamer and all they do is just derp around in WoW. They RARELY do LFR, infact this streamer has been playing since TBC and did their first current raid in MoP (all the raids he has done were older raids from past expansions). This person defys everything you said about incentive. He has fun with people he knows in games and collects mounts and pets. He is casual as they come. So WoW isn;t about just sitting on your butt and have people admire your gear, especially not now with people transmogging or going server and world firsts.

    Is such a good feeling being able to wear items you know full well you couldn't do it alone without the help of your friends and teamwork of your guildies. Those pieces of armor always end up meaning something special to you.
    Raid flex and normal and you can get that feeling back. Apperently showing off your "cool looking" gear means a lot more than the feeling working with friends and guildies. Pieces of gear EVEN if they look the same can tell a different story. If that one guy got his helm from LFR and it looks the same as yours, it doesn't take away that experience you got from doing the raid with friends and guildies. Cause maybe how you got that helm was you almost wiped, you're the last one up and you got the boss down. You can ALWAYS look at that helm that same helm that thousands of guys have but you yourself will have a story and will like it more and keep it. I don't know about you, if I could raid with friends and a active guild, I would because that is more fun and you get the cool gear while at it. I would take that over LFR everyday and I probably would still do LFR.

    I find it funny with all this debating that everyone is actually right when it comes to sub losses. WoW lost subs due to age, due to casualsation (is this a word?) of the game, LFR, game is too hard, game is too easy, etc. There are SOOO many factors on why people leave, that everyone is right. However, there isn't no ONE true giant reason. If there was, Blizzard would know and would have tried to fix it. All we can do is think why we know why there are sub losses and how everyone thinks, but we don't and never will. All we have is what Blizzard says and I'll take their word everyday of the week cause they do have the facts and figures. There is no sense in lying because 1 that builds major distrust with alot of players and 2 you can't hide problems especially if you have to report sub gains and losses.

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