How can we make leveling better?

[Somaldelhar]

i'd like to do a little exercise guys. instead of bitching that leveling is boring, that paid 90's is the best thing since sliced bread, ETC, i want to see what everyone can think up to make the leveling experience not a skeletal speed run. to make it fun, or interesting, and to take the focus off of straight up skipping it.

this is simple. if you think there would be a balance hurdle, or technical one, try and think of a way to fix it. for all intents and purposes, lets assume blizz is reading this and may take our suggestions. we wouldn't get credit, we may not even be mentioned, but if it improves the game thats fine. lets try to leave class balance out of it as much as possible as thats a seperate problem entirely.

i'll start. in another thread, i not to nicely started out a post that was about randomized zone encounters while leveling. these would be encounters that happen based on the zone it happens in (such as a horde VS alliance army in a heavily PvP zone, and an Undead army heading from stratholme to lights hope in an area like plaguelands, which is more of a "everyone is equal, common enemy" type of area.) now i mean RANDOMIZED.

for example, lets use the roll system. there would first be a roll for which event would happen in the zone(this includes any applicable ones, and some may only have 1 event, which means it would skip this specific step) then, a second roll would happen to determine if it will be in a half hour, or 3 or even the next day. of course, there will likely be a limit on it, probably not higher than 12 hours max, and we will not get to see the timer, eliciting a feeling of "this could happen at any time". the third roll will determine the size of the opposing force. in HvA scenarios, the numbers won't differ drastically so as not to give an over-whelming advantage. the mobs you fight would also be tuned higher than average mobs in the area, so one person cannot face-roll the event. of course, making it so that higher level players get phased out of it as well would help.

as an example, lets use the lights hope scenario. there is an army coming from stratholme to attack lights hope. the roll decided it would be 10 groups of 5 mobs each, resulting in 50 total mobs(CCs and pulling allowed, of course). if they manage to get to lights hope before a certain time limit is reached, then they will wreak havoc, potentially destroying important things(quest givers for example, though that would be the extreme, and there would likely be a way to bring them back before the next invasion aside from their natural respawn). stalling them until the appointed time could give a small buff, and beating them back before they get there at all could grant an achievement, based on army size, with the highest amount giving a piece of transmoggable gear as a reward. perhaps a pair of gloves with a glowing argent seal on the back.

mind most of that is subjective and would likely change.

anywho, thats my idea? what about yours? obviously, evening out the leveling from level to level so it rises proportionally rather than as spiky as it does would need to be the first thing they fix.

so? what have you all got?

[Alandalus]

I don't think there is a way to make it "better". Any change you make will upset a lot of people because they expect certain things from WoW. Blizzard can't really make any significant changes because then it wouldn't be WoW to a lot of people. You have interesting ideas, but I don't think Blizzard would do anything to change how leveling is today because generally most people either like it or have become so accustomed to it that they would not want anything new or exciting.

[Rucati]

Give RAF bonus to everybody, just increase all xp by 300%. Leveled a Paladin with RAF tonight and got to 40 in just a few hours, compared to what would normally take 10+ hours.

Leveling itself isn't terrible. The problem is that it takes forever to do it, yes it's boring, but part of the reason it's boring is because of how long it takes while you just sit there grinding out mobs in the same zone. Pick up 3 quests, walk to location, kill everything that moves, turn in 3 quests, pick up new ones. That's all you do, for hours on hours, in the same damn zone sometimes. It's repetitive, and if you leveled significantly faster then it would be far less repetitive, and would make leveling a bit more tolerable.

[Somaldelhar]

I don't think there is a way to make it "better". Any change you make will upset a lot of people because they expect certain things from WoW. Blizzard can't really make any significant changes because then it wouldn't be WoW to a lot of people. You have interesting ideas, but I don't think Blizzard would do anything to change how leveling is today because generally most people either like it or have become so accustomed to it that they would not want anything new or exciting.

thats the exact problem this would aim to fix though. the community is quite honestly stagnating at max level. something like this would breathe a fresh breath into the game, and i would like to believe that most people would embrace it after a while. we've already come to the point that people will be able to skip it next expac, so why not drastically change something to see if that would be a better alternative?

Give RAF bonus to everybody, just increase all xp by 300%. Leveled a Paladin with RAF tonight and got to 40 in just a few hours, compared to what would normally take 10+ hours.

Leveling itself isn't terrible. The problem is that it takes forever to do it, yes it's boring, but part of the reason it's boring is because of how long it takes while you just sit there grinding out mobs in the same zone. Pick up 3 quests, walk to location, kill everything that moves, turn in 3 quests, pick up new ones. That's all you do, for hours on hours, in the same damn zone sometimes. It's repetitive, and if you leveled significantly faster then it would be far less repetitive, and would make leveling a bit more tolerable.

that is the exact issue my suggestion aimed to fix. to make leveling interesting again, not to skip it. that is the point of this thread.

[Deleted]

Add optional challenges that make you advance faster. Fix the leveling curve so that level 62 quests are not easier than level 7 like they currently are. There you go.

[Somaldelhar]

Add optional challenges that make you advance faster. Fix the leveling curve so that level 62 quests are not easier than level 7 like they currently are. There you go.

not a bad start, but that doesn't fix the over-arching problems of the world having little to do outside of max-level content anymore. i think we can all agree that the leveling experience experiences sharp spikes both downward and upward in difficulty. that is one thins they should have fixed ages ago though, and i'm not even sure why it needs to be said.

[Super Kami Dende]

Remove Level restrictions from Quests.

If I am Level 20 But know I can do level 28 quests, I should be able to go to that area and take it on.

Experience should reflect the much higher content and allow you to level quicker.

I know people will say "but a high leveled friend could just run you through them", but they can already do that now with lower level quests so what would be the difference?

[Rocketknight]

Add optional challenges that make you advance faster. Fix the leveling curve so that level 62 quests are not easier than level 7 like they currently are. There you go.

My GF and I are leveling through Wrath ATM. Both of us can 1 hit things. It's her first time playing, she has no 'looms or anything, just random blues and greens.

[Somaldelhar]

not a bad idea asthreon. not a bad idea at all. i'm going to take a page out of an anime for this one, but i think it would be interesting for them to add a system so that anybody at +10 or so levels higher will be reduced to the level of the player they are partying with for the duration of their partying. maybe even +5, if thats still too op. ii'm pretty sure there would be some technilogical hurdles with that, but just make it so that the stats the player has reflect an at level player. don't take away abilities they already learned or anything, just reduce the stats to an at-level equivelant.

i realize this one is a pipe dream at best, but it would be really cool

- - - Updated - - -

My GF and I are leveling through Wrath ATM. Both of us can 1 hit things. It's her first time playing, she has no 'looms or anything, just random blues and greens.

yeah, thats one of the over-arching problems with leveling. the difficulty curve has major spikes that they need to smooth out. again, i don't see why they didn't before, but i guess we'll never find out

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Most ppl level strictly in dungeons (myself included) gear is nice as you progress through levels, xp is nice and you get to interact with ppl. Even when leveling to max when new exp hits and there's 100s of ppl around you it's not fun to level, honestly the LFD system is to blame, it made the open world even emptier. Maybe put a cd on the dungeon finder or remove the bonus xp to make questing faster. Atm questing isn't close to the xp per hour of dungeons.

[Somaldelhar]

Most ppl level strictly in dungeons (myself included) gear is nice as you progress through levels, xp is nice and you get to interact with ppl. Even when leveling to max when new exp hits and there's 100s of ppl around you it's not fun to level, honestly the LFD system is to blame, it made the open world even emptier. Maybe put a cd on the dungeon finder or remove the bonus xp to make questing faster. Atm questing isn't close to the xp per hour of dungeons.

that was another thing i mentioned in that other thread. making dungeons slower leveling wise, but give better gear. make them worth doing once or twice(maybe) but have leveling in the world be the meat of the actual leveling process. one thing to add would be to actually need to go to a dungeon once before being able to que it, like at cata's start. that was a good idea, then they dropped it like a hot coal. and there is obviously cooldowns, but since the cooldown resets itself on a win as it is, blizzard is just making the leveling process a pain in the ass all by themselves aren't they? LFD was an interesting thought. having it be realm specific would have been a better idea, rather than accross realms. they should drop cross-realm things entirely until they can make one unified realm, if you ask me, but that is neither here nor there. obviously that doesn't include connected realms, as those act as 1 realm.

TL;DR? yeah, LFD takes all the fun out of leveling that there is to be had, and a nerf needs put on it.

[Deleted]

Small events during questing areas that allow for a elite or a harder mob to appear - that yields better experience or a turn in quest, but in turn is a bit more difficult then the rest of the stuff spawned.

Preferably something that uses form of ways to damage the players so that it actually is something you can dodge. Not just "it hits very hard". Being able to outplay and do alternative stuff while leveling is a cool idea.

Add alternative quests that offer a lot of XP but is a lot like the old group quests - But tuned in such a way that someone who is not in looms it maybe requires 2-3 ppl, where as of ppl in looms can solo it. With the speed of leveling it would just be a alternative thing to do.

Incorporate professions more into leveling - Make it feel worth it to actually skin a beast or make certain rare spawns with longer timers can give extra in respective skill when you kill it and harvest it.

Make it more organic to level professions with your fast pace of leveling - it would feel better to have your professions level with you rather then being an afterthought and dredge it all along like a chore. Sort of like how JC and BS is - it's not fun, it's a chore. You get this huge amount of stuff in comparing to dealing with areas so quick, that you never actually do it WHILE leveling.

Make an alternative that slows down the amount of xp you get. Just for the lulz of people who like to make it an journey to get to the max level.

Add a journal item so that people can actually RP their chars for themselves while they level. Better immersion, back to being an actual RPG and it's cool. + it's just like one item.

Make an alternative form of difficulty for people when they quest - sort of like a modifier to your character that allows you to wear heirlooms but tunes your stats despite wearing heirlooms so that mobs are actually difficult for you to beat. Sort of like "Press X button, get debuff, have a harder time"

Make small and compact lore chains actually scale with your level so that you do not out-level them. I HATE that. That you just know that there is this cool lore quest with some big lore chars, but since you blast through a zone in 3 quests - why the hell would you do it, or even more so - even if you wanted to do it, it's not gray. Yay.

Make more events during questing in a zone. Sure, it is a cool idea to have a huge finale to a zone - but how often do you actually complete an ENTIRE zone when you level so bloody fast? Almost never. so the only realistic way you would see the big events, is either later on without heirlooms - or you artificially staying in the zone extended amounts of time JUST to see that stuff. Which is saddening. So add more events during the zone that make it feel like it has had an impact - makes it also feel more or less that we are somewhat integrated with the world.

albeit i realize that would require a lot of effort - so i would not suggest that more so then the easier fixes.

Make choices relevant in the quest - To see different lore, but not to see different rewards. It makes it feel more organic and it would also make it so that you would fele more compelled to do the quest with some effort rather then "skip text, accept" and go kill 8 boars.

Add secondary objectives - that could be harder, but give more xp if you complete them. balanced in such a way that you would not feel scammed not doing it - but it still wouldn't be a waste of time doing it either. It just gives the idea of that there could be more to a quest then just the very solid structure we have today.

Implement the randomization of reward from WoD to lower level quests as well. You will outlevel gear - but there is NOTHING more dull then to have heirlooms and NEVER think "Well, this piece of gear would be an upgrade!" - It's like you're already set for gear into eternity, which makes it feel as if your character has literally no room to expand cuz you're already set. And instead of just saying "Don't get heirlooms", cuz ppl do get em - make rewards become POSSIBLY stronger then them.

You WILL outlevel them anyway - and since you do not replace them at any rate currently - why would it matter if you made so that there is a small gap of power in combination with other changes to some levels. It would make it more diverse and more interesting.

Make mobs drop lore bits - Like quest items but sort of like logs, letters, scripts - things that show to an organic world in such a manner that you know that this is not "pretty boy duncan" that has stood on this bloody beach for 398520985209385 years now doing NOTHING - but that there is actually SOMETHING going on outside of you coming along and kicking sand in everyone's faces making them cry.

Sorry - Long post, but that's what i came up with .

Overall, i think that making the pacing of questing more compelling in ways of rewards and choices (like the WoD quest system reward but not apply it to dungeons, as dungeons is a high chance of blues anyway) - just by tuning numbers and rewards, would make questing something you could actually DO instead of just chain running dungeons.

That is the issue overall imo. In heirlooms + dungeon quests - you do not spend anytime giving a sh't about the world, you go through your dungeon with designated dungeon quests, get plenty of XP, run the next dungeon and avoid questing at all costs because it is slow, tedious, few quests and the slowness is in form of outleveling the quest zone in question so that you are forced to move quickly to the next zone lest you just play very casually.

[Tntdruid]

Lvling is too easy now, can't finish an zone before the quest are green/grey now.

[smokii]

dynamic events would be nice - but optional rather than mandatory would be ideal (people piss and moan when something unexpected interrupts their gaming experience)

the ability to turn off XP gains (without visiting an NPC), or alternatively some form of continued XP gain from finishing a zone storyline - so many zones are cut short these days by out-levelling them before you have finished the story arc. i like being able to finish the story in a zone, but i also like the ability to skip the next zone from finishing all the quests in the previous zone. loremaster achievements could reward bonus satchels whilst levelling or something...

meh, maybe they need something a bit more like rift with zone scaling and a mentoring system, it would have to be 100% optional but easily available from the UI.

mob scaling - scaling up mobs in a zone to keep them challenging. (probably part of a mentoring/xp/quest scaling design)

more abilities earlier on. having just started a new toon last night, early levels are very devoid of interesting abilities - i spent the first 5 levels on a monk last night just jabbing things, then tiger palm, then blackout kick and finally fists of fury at level 10 - those abilities last 90% of the rest of the game, whereas the fun abilities like rising sun kick, flying tiger kick and spinning crane kick take ages to unlock (levels 60-90), but round out the skill-set better. levelling from 1-90 would be a much better experience given a full tool kit earlier on and more challenging mobs to encounter along the way.

bringing back outdoor elites would also be good - as when you do start out-levelling a zone, it always used to be that the elite quests would still award decent XP when the others start going grey.

low level single player scenarios would probably also help

better gear sets from vendors - much like the adventuring supplies vendors in pandaria, having vendors able to fill out your unfilled slots when you start a new zone would be helpful - especially as a dungeon run can net you a ton of XP, yet not necessarily all the gear to fill the slots, which can leave you a bit vulnerable when then moving onto a new zone. heirlooms combat this somewhat, but new players don't have heirlooms and sometimes you want to experience a zone, not fly through it.

either make rest state permanent, or remove it entirely and increase base XP gain. then maybe add XP bonus things to the store - or make them craftable by high level alchemists or something, you could add limitations such as only works up to level 60/70/80/85/90 depending on the skill-level of the alchemist. (you could also have rest state flasks, which literally just allow your character to maintain rest state at all times)

[Fus Ro Yay]

'better' is a matter of perspective in this case tbh.

Anyway, i feel if they reverted all changes they've done to lvling, and turned it back to the Longass grind it used to be, people might start to appiricate the story more and maybe learn the class they're playing before reaching max lvl..
this would of-course introduce huge changes, one of wich would be to remove the LFD as we know it today, (maybe implement the old one, where you qued up, got grouped and had to go to the summoning stone to summon your group)
another thing would be to revert the mount changes, Normal riding at 40, epic at 60, flying at 70.
the lvling process should be a journey and its the longest journey we have in this game. So i feel like we should be working our way up from being a simple farmer's hand killing boars to a hero, saving entire elemental planes from destruction.

the backside to this would be that players would really be put of making alts.. and if they did introduce a way to buy lvl 90's, people would complain how they were 'forced' to buy instant 90.

[Osmeric]

Leveling shouldn't be made better; it should be eliminated. The resources spent on leveling content should instead go into end game content (including world content.)

[Deleted]

I think it would be interesting if they added a storyline for every class that would span throughout all the zones and help you learn your class step by step, spell by spell.

[Fus Ro Yay]

Leveling shouldn't be made better; it should be eliminated. The resources spent on leveling content should instead go into end game content (including world content.)

Anyway, i feel if they reverted all changes they've done to lvling, and turned it back to the Longass grind it used to be, people might start to appiricate the story more and maybe learn the class they're playing before reaching max lvl..
this would of-course introduce huge changes, one of wich would be to remove the LFD as we know it today, (maybe implement the old one, where you qued up, got grouped and had to go to the summoning stone to summon your group)
another thing would be to revert the mount changes, Normal riding at 40, epic at 60, flying at 70.
the lvling process should be a journey and its the longest journey we have in this game. So i feel like we should be working our way up from being a simple farmer's hand killing boars to a hero, saving entire elemental planes from destruction.

the backside to this would be that players would really be put of making alts.. and if they did introduce a way to buy lvl 90's, people would complain how they were 'forced' to buy instant 90.

perfect example of what i mean by 'better' is a matter of prespective. two extreme oposites :3

[Deleted]

Leveling shouldn't be made better; it should be eliminated. The resources spent on leveling content should instead go into end game content (including world content.)

Heavy emphasis on End-game is only the symptom of too fast leveling. Since everyone reaches end game so fast, everyone needs to see endgame.

And then, surprise surprise - people b'tch about that it takes months to design raids and that they have nothing to do in their spare time, while leveling alts feels dull as all you do is rush to max lvl.

[Zka]

I was about to open a similar topic, honestly. It's not just leveling, but the whole new player experience.
At the moment, I suppose 1-80 or even 1-90 is a complete faceroll-fest with zero difficulty. This is a really bad message for a new player. A new player does not even have a chance to encounter any pve challenge until he hits max level and decides to enter normal or heroic raids. But why would he do that when all the "content" is available in the faceroll format (which he is already used to) via LFR?

Technically, something like these should be implemented:
- halve the amount of mobs in all dungeons below 85, but buff their HP by at least 200%, damage by at least 50%. Hard to tell the correct amount. Mobs drop dead just by looking at them, you can NOT practice any rotation or have any fun by grinding them. Randoms in lvl 50 dungeons put out DPS numbers that were seen in early BC raids @ 70.
- ensure that all classes get their aoe at the same level. It's ridicolous how rogues and priests lack in that department until high levels.
- buff outdoor mob hp by at least 100%, at least up until 80 or so.
- nerf heirlooms, they should not be equal to a level-appropriate blue, they should be a bit weaker to even out throughput of heirloomed and non-heirloomed characters. This, or fix quest rewards. These are absurdly inferior to heirlooms and dungeon loot.
- fix XP gain somehow, or at least give easy access to any 1-60 zone. At the moment questing 1-60 is just not worth it, especially on a pvp realm. LFD yields at least twice that XP/hour and if you stay outside you'll outlevel content and waste time on adjusting. Even I managed to outlevel quests, despite not having any XP heirlooms and not doing any LFDs. Outleveling a zone in the old world is painful, you may need to cross half the globe for the next appropriate zone.
- tradeskills are also very easy to outlevel, especially skinning.

In short:
- retune mob HP and damage to create some challenge
- retune LFD vs questing XP/hour
- retune heirlooms vs quest rewards
- outleveling a zone should not be a major logistical pain, let players move the next zone easily