Thread: Ukraine

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  1. #1

    Ukraine

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/kiev-b...191541233.html

    Should the U.S. and the EU start doing massive sanctions against their Government? This shit is getting way out of hand.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/kiev-b...191541233.html

    Should the U.S. and the EU start doing massive sanctions against their Government? This shit is getting way out of hand.
    Why should we?

    I don't agree with the laws against public demonstration but I do feel that if you're going to riot, burn buses, and throw explosives at the police you better damn well expect equal force in return. It's still not our fight and I don't see any reason why the US should get involved.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Why should we?

    I don't agree with the laws against public demonstration but I do feel that if you're going to riot, burn buses, and throw explosives at the police you better damn well expect equal force in return. It's still not our fight and I don't see any reason why the US should get involved.
    They whole reason these riots broke out was due to the Ukrainian Police using excessive force on peaceful protests. We wouldn't be getting directly involved if we decided to sanction the Government.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    They whole reason these riots broke out was due to the Ukrainian Police using excessive force on peaceful protests. We wouldn't be getting directly involved if we decided to sanction the Government.
    Ukraine asked US for help before these ass holes took over. Ukraine willingly gave up a nuclear arsenal that rivaled Russia in it's attempt to get US support. I really think it's a little too late and at this point something the people of Ukraine have to do on their own. You just breed resentment at this point...

    I'm calling my folks tomorrow to see how their friends in Ukraine are doing. They have not been able to reach them yet, due to hours not the crisis... Their old...
    Entropy won't yield to you.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Why should we?

    I don't agree with the laws against public demonstration but I do feel that if you're going to riot, burn buses, and throw explosives at the police you better damn well expect equal force in return. It's still not our fight and I don't see any reason why the US should get involved.
    Don't think those people have much choice. They either do what they are doing or they accept being oppresed. Don't think outsiders should get involve unless the government starts massacring people.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    Don't think those people have much choice. They either do what they are doing or they accept being oppresed. Don't think outsiders should get involve unless the government starts massacring people.
    I'm not that familiar with the situation in the Ukraine - I only see what was in the article which was people protesting a move to work with Russia instead of joining the EU. In response, the government cracked down and legislated protests as illegal (which is ridiculous) and, in response to that, the people are rioting. Like you, I still fail to see what the US should be doing about it.

    Now, if Ukraine dropped a bomb on the protestors, absolutely we, and the entire international community, should do something about it.

  7. #7
    Sanctions?
    No. If you want to get the government of the Ukraine to stop all of this nonsense, you're going to have to woo them. Better trade agreements; not worse ones.

    The sad reason for all of this is that the EU really wants the Ukraine to be a part of it. And Russia really wants the same. Russia is promising no government intervention. They're promising that the ones in charge can, and will, remain in charge. The EU promises democracy. Voting. Taking on corruption (even if it's not really efficient, it's still something). It would be absolutely preposterous to expect a government without the people's support to actually want to side with the EU. It's equally preposterous for a people that is oppressed by that same government to want to side with Russia.

    And thus the troubles happen. Sanctions will only strengthen their government's bonds with Russia, and will therefore only result in more abuse of, and outrage from, the people. Those same people will face an even harsher economy because of it.

  8. #8
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    You miss one thing, many Ukrainian people think that connecting with EU will be a good thing and will solve all their problems. But it's not. Latvia is a great example of what can happen to production of your country when you join EU.

    Anyways, i find it really exciting that so many people oppress trade agreement with Russia in favor of Europe. Like, all of them are good at politics and totally have all information about what's happening in politics. If Ukraine wouldn't accept this trade agreement they wouldn't get a huge loan from Russia that was needed by them in first place
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2014-01-23 at 03:53 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You miss one thing, many Ukrainian people think that connecting with EU will be a good thing and will solve all their problems. But it's not. Latvia is a great example of what can happen to production of your country when you join EU.

    Anyways, i find it really exciting that so many people oppress trade agreement with Russia in favor of Europe. Like, all of them are good at politics and totally have all information about what's happening in politics. If Ukraine wouldn't accept this trade agreement they wouldn't get a huge loan from Russia that was needed by them in first place
    You mean that huge loan that was needed because of crooked moneygrabbers endorsed by Russian politicians?

    It's really not that simple. But either way, the way things are going now, it's the people who suffer. And we really need to find a solution to that.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I'm not that familiar with the situation in the Ukraine - I only see what was in the article which was people protesting a move to work with Russia instead of joining the EU. In response, the government cracked down and legislated protests as illegal (which is ridiculous) and, in response to that, the people are rioting. Like you, I still fail to see what the US should be doing about it.

    Now, if Ukraine dropped a bomb on the protestors, absolutely we, and the entire international community, should do something about it.
    The EU are mostly our allies. Allowing them to have a trade partner in the Ukraine would indirectly benefit us.

  11. #11
    I should really start paying more attention to the news coming out of Kiev, but from what my family there (who all seem to dislike Yanukovych a lot) tell me, it's getting pretty ugly. And also that apparently Yanukovych is a crook who corrupts the political processes to his own benefit, like stalling the mayoral election for years because the guy set to win is against him. Not that 90% of the other politicians there are any better.
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  12. #12
    The Ukraine needs independent judicial oversight with the power to block radical legislation.

    So sad the excuses regular people take in order to explain injustice. It's sad when the need to survive outweighs the need to be free. These people want justice without killing.

  13. #13
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    You mean that huge loan that was needed because of crooked moneygrabbers endorsed by Russian politicians?

    It's really not that simple. But either way, the way things are going now, it's the people who suffer. And we really need to find a solution to that.
    These "moneygrabbers" are endorsed by Ukrainian people, Russia has nothing to do with it, well, probably it has something to do with it, but Russia has no force over "endorsing" Ukrainian presidency. It's not like only Yanukovich who steals money, it's whole Rada has rotten up to the bones and should be replaced. And seeing riots happening is kinda disturbing, but it's good start and government should understand that people will tolerate no more of their greed and insolence.

    It is that simple. People who are in charge are greedy bastards. If they would be replaced by any other human being they would do the same because there is little to no enforcement behind "don't steal governments money". People suffer all the time.
    Right now some kid probably suffer from being teabagged by a level 90 rogue in STV. Another kid suffers from stomach pain because he ate too much candies. Another kid suffers from starvation.
    And right now some guy suffer standing in traffic and being very late to work. Another guy suffers in hospital from chilblain. Another guy suffers from being robbed.

    I know many people from Ukraine and many of them think that these riots are overhead, but there is little to nothing left to trust their government. Many people understand that joining EU will lead to huge problems, and being an independent country with trade relations is much better than going for EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Notos View Post
    I should really start paying more attention to the news coming out of Kiev, but from what my family there (who all seem to dislike Yanukovych a lot) tell me, it's getting pretty ugly. And also that apparently Yanukovych is a crook who corrupts the political processes to his own benefit, like stalling the mayoral election for years because the guy set to win is against him. Not that 90% of the other politicians there are any better.
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    The Ukraine needs independent judicial oversight with the power to block radical legislation.

    So sad the excuses regular people take in order to explain injustice. It's sad when the need to survive outweighs the need to be free. These people want justice without killing.
    And yes and no. These people who riot and shoot fireworks at police does not want justice without killing. Intervention is needed, because Yanukovich has too much power right now. Everything started pretty normal and Maidan got attention from world that was needed, i kinda giggle when people call Putin "a dictator" but they don't even know about Yanukovich or Lukashenko (not a bad guy tho, but he is in charge of Belarus for very long time)
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2014-01-23 at 04:35 AM.

  14. #14
    Tanks are rolling in.

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  15. #15
    Dreadlord BreathTaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therionn View Post
    They whole reason these riots broke out was due to the Ukrainian Police using excessive force on peaceful protests. We wouldn't be getting directly involved if we decided to sanction the Government.
    BS, you better watch more videos, police was just standing there with shields most of the time.
    After all every demonstration in any country has a couple of incidents.
    And no matter what - law is above your desire to protest. The time when it was peaceful(at start) has passed, now there are criminals on the streets.
    Ukraine needs dialog between gov and people, but no dialog starts while there are people in arms on the streets, ever
    Last edited by BreathTaker; 2014-01-23 at 06:10 AM.

  16. #16
    Merely a Setback
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I'm not that familiar with the situation in the Ukraine - I only see what was in the article which was people protesting a move to work with Russia instead of joining the EU. In response, the government cracked down and legislated protests as illegal (which is ridiculous) and, in response to that, the people are rioting. Like you, I still fail to see what the US should be doing about it.

    Now, if Ukraine dropped a bomb on the protestors, absolutely we, and the entire international community, should do something about it.
    The best thing the US could do is to pubclically shame Putin by telling him what to do in his backyard that would be a good idea.

  17. #17
    The Ukrainian people should have been given the chance to vote in a referendum on which path they would want their country to take. That was never gonna happen with the government that is in charge though. But that would have been a democratic decision made by the people, they were given no chance to influence this decision through democratic means, that lead to huge numbers of people peacefully demostrating, that lead to laws that criminalized the protests, another blow against the democratic rights of the ukrainian people, which lead to violance.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2014-01-23 at 06:46 AM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BreathTaker View Post
    BS, you better watch more videos, police was just standing there with shields most of the time.
    After all every demonstration in any country has a couple of incidents.
    And no matter what - law is above your desire to protest. The time when it was peaceful(at start) has passed, now there are criminals on the streets.
    Ukraine needs dialog between gov and people, but no dialog starts while there are people in arms on the streets, ever
    Ukraine is not fascist...
    Entropy won't yield to you.

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer ForLoveOfMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davillage View Post
    The best thing the US could do is to pubclically shame Putin by telling him what to do in his backyard that would be a good idea.
    Let's not forget last year the american fund (Franklin Templeton Investments) bought about 20% of Ukrraine's foreight debt. CIA front maybe? Who knows, but I'm sure once Ukraine is done and chooses a side we will find out!

    To put in perspective, that ammount is enough to destablize and fuck the country's economy over night if they dump the euro-bonds.

    And EU is not better at all, they "crave" for Tymoshenko and want her out of prison, regardless if her trial was a political one or not she was sentenced by a legal court, but they demand for her to be sent to Germany for "heathcare reasons" from where I am sure she won't ever be heared again. My guess either get infro from her regarding Gazprom (Russian's gas company) so they can blackmail and get better prices, since Germany relies on russian gas a lot!

    Bottom line: All the international influences just fucked Ukraine even more.

  20. #20
    Merely a Setback
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    Why wouldn't she return from germany or why should she if she doesn't want?
    Thats just exile.

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