Ukraine

[Deleted]

They whole reason these riots broke out was due to the Ukrainian Police using excessive force on peaceful protests. We wouldn't be getting directly involved if we decided to sanction the Government.

O rly? The "excessive force" you are talking about, was on November 30, because of these "peaceful protesters"...attacking police with sticks, stones (police didn't even have shields back then) occupying government buildings. THIS after the Ukrainian government survived the no-confidence vote in parliament = democracy on the Government's side.






So, tell me, what would happen if in America someone were to violently storm Congress? Ignore that the government won a non-confidence vote and thus had democracy on its side? What if the out-side world then demanded that the US back down to the rioters demands!?

Unidentified men break the door of the Kiev City State Administration (Kiev City Council) building during a rally held by supporters of EU integration in Kiev, December 1, 2013. (Reuters / Valentyn Ogirenko)

Participants in a rally in support of Ukraine's integration with the EU, in Kiev's city hall occupied by protesters on December 1, 2013. (RIA Novosti / Andrey Stenin)

Pro-European Ukrainian demonstrators spray tear gas on police members protecting the presidential adminstration office in Kiev as 100 000 outraged Ukrainians swarmed the city in a call for early elections meant to punish authorities for rejecting a historic EU pact, on December 1, 2013.( AFP Photo / Vasily Ma





Yes, that's a catapult...going medieval...



A protester sprays fire in the direction of the riot police during clashes in the centre of Kiev on January 20, 2014. (AFP Photo / Genya Savilov)



OP, you have a strange notion of 'peaceful protesters'...

[Charge me Doctor]

Their classy prime minister already labeled the anti-government protesters terrorists.
I guess Egypt, Turkey, Russia & others needed more company spewing such nonsense.

Because this is not terrorism (google translate).
Also, lots of neo-nazi involved in fighting, and we all know that they love these kind of chaos

[Bakis]

You guys need to start voting on the major issues that are dividing your country. Get a grasp of what the opinions really are and then implement them, if the government stands in the way of this, then foreign powers such as Russia or the EU can get involved.

Also if people dont want to protest peacefully they deserve whats coming to them.

The bummer is that after the recent days events both the government as well as the opposition are hell bent that the actions of the other now rule out any discussion at all.
They havent managed to sort it out since forever anyway pretty much half the population always looked at themselves as either russians or europeans.

[Deleted]

This is Svoboda, the Neo-Nazi group that is doing the fighting in Ukraine.



This is their leader, and picture below as well...

This is the USA position

[Bakis]

We got it already Summerdrake, everyone protesting is a nazi, now stop spamming your one sided crap and accept that there are violent protesters and peaceful ones.
The extreme russian forces in Ukraine aint prettier btw, just as foul.

[Deleted]

We got it already Summerdrake, everyone protesting is a nazi, now stop spamming your one sided crap and accept that there are violent protesters and peaceful ones.
The extreme russian forces in Ukraine aint prettier btw, just as foul.

That's funny, here's western opinion, the BBC, British on fascism in Ukraine. Now tell me where are all those "extreme Russians" in the article if they are so dangerous?

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693
note, article is from 2012 and so is not clouded by current events.

What is one-sided is where the violence comes from.

There you have it, stop being butt hurt cuz I exposed your "peaceful protesters"

[Mongoose19]

Dead bodies are being found in forests near Kiev, tanks are on streets, people are being left to die in hospitals. Ye don't do shit about that. Rely on your "objective" BBC/CNN reports...

[Bakis]

That's funny, here's western opinion, the BBC, British on fascism in Ukraine. Now tell me where are all those "extreme Russians" in the article if they are so dangerous?

Svoboda: The rise of Ukraine's ultra-nationalists http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20824693
note, article is from 2012 and so is not clouded by current events.

What is one-sided is where the violence comes from.

There you have it, stop being butt hurt.

I'm not butthurt but you made your point and there is no need to post 667 pics. Also nice that you know what westerners get ther information from.

[Deleted]

I'm not butthurt but you made your point and there is no need to post 667 pics. Also nice that you know what westerners get ther information from.

A few pics, a few vids, not that many actually and they were important all. The reason you are crying is not due to amount of pics, but what they showed, at least be honest. Oh, and where do you get your information from? I'd say most go to major news sites to fast digest info. That's why big news are, well, big. Are we really having an argument if people watch BBC lol? You are side-tracking as hell.

[Tars]

Hey guys, a ukrainian reporting in.

Just wanted to enlighten you a little bit, this is not a conflict "between ukrainian people and ukrainian government", but more like "between a couple of (sponsored) activists + a fair share of confused rednecks, and ukrainian government". Media makes ya'll think it's the people of ukraine who are protesting against the reigning regime, but naturally not everyone is supporting the protests, to say the least. Most people just want peace.

It's just another attempt at a revolution (we already had one succeed). As you all know the weak nazi minds are very suspectable to the idea of revolution, and this is what happening currently at Grushevska street. I just hope that it'll all come to an end and my friends at Kyiv can walk their streets at peace once again.

This one doesn't sound like a Ukrainian at all, more like some Russian (or someone who watches russian official tv).

People are not fighting for money or trade agreements. They are fighting for freedom and dignity and justice.

[Bakis]

A few pics, a few vids, not that many actually and they were important all. The reason you are crying is not due to amount of pics, but what they showed, at least be honest. Oh, and where do you get your information from? I'd say most go to major news sites to fast digest info. That's why big news are, well, big. Are we really having an argument if people watch BBC lol? You are side-tracking as hell.

Please find a post where I say that there has not been severly violent protester? Untill then stop implying it.
You wont find it, just like I wont find you posting there are alot of peacefull protesters either.

[Deleted]

While you have a point there, it's not entirely true. I don't think many ukrainians consider themselves russians. 50% (actually more) ukrainians _speak_ russian, that's true, but it's not the same. It's a different breed of post-soviet people, and people who speak russian don't necessarily want to bond or merge with Russian Federation.

As for EU vs Russian course of development / integration, it is just being used as a reasoning for opposition to try and take over the government. Really neither European Union was going to accept Ukraine any time soon, nor RF was going to digest ukraine as a powerful nothern bear it is.

Police cruelty (and severe new laws that have been recently introduced, like 10 years for taking a part in a protest) are just a counter-reaction. The policemen guys who are standing there all day unarmed being thrown stones and molotov cocktails at, aren't getting any happier. If there should be tanks then so be it. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this way.

Ukraine, if people have bothered to read the government position, is to have a tri-party deal that involves EU and Russia. Russia, because it's Ukraine's biggest trading partner. This the EU flatly refuses to even discuss, this position and the crappy deals they offer, can in no-way compare to the sweet deals Russia offers, is what made the government turn away the EU offer. This doesn't mean they have turned their backs on the EU, just that the EU is too stubborn to compromise.

None of the laws on protesting don't exist in the west... This is double standards, overlooked because EU is hungry to snatch Ukraine..

- - - Updated - - -

Please find a post where I say that there has not been severly violent protester? Untill then stop implying it.

You are the one implying it, why else are you on a crusade against my post? "omg lots of information about stuff the thread is for! my eyes! my eyes!" yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not about the pics n vids.

[Bakis]

Ukraine, if people have bothered to read the government position, is to have a tri-party deal that involves EU and Russia. Russia, because it's Ukraine's biggest trading partner. This the EU flatly refuses to even discuss, this position and the crappy deals they offer, can in no-way compare to the sweet deals Russia offers, is what made the government turn away the EU offer. This doesn't mean they have turned their backs on the EU, just that the EU is too stubborn to compromise.

None of the laws on protesting don't exist in the west... This is double standards, overlooked because EU is hungry to snatch Ukraine..

The EU deal is sour in the short term as well as Russia not being able to offer the stability and most important reformation of the annihalited Ukraine economy.
But lets limit to being about who gives the most handouts in a 12 month period...

- - - Updated - - -

You are the one implying it, why else are you on a crusade against my post? "omg lots of information about stuff the thread is for! my eyes! my eyes!" yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not about the pics n vids.

Yea you seem to know all about me as well as all protesters being nazis

[Deleted]

This one doesn't sound like a Ukrainian at all, more like some Russian (or someone who watches russian official tv).

People are not fighting for money or trade agreements. They are fighting for freedom and dignity and justice.

'murica!

Btw Ukraine has a population of 45 millions, it's only a few that are out protesting. You completely ignore that.

[Masark]

One activist that was abducted, was found dead in a forest near Kiev... totally out of control.

on another note, the protest has an MMO twist to it as well

What about the riot police/military/government classes? Or are they going to add those and PVP in the first expansion?

[Deleted]

The EU deal is sour in the short term as well as Russia being able to offer the stability and most important reformation of the annihalited Ukraine economy in the long run.
But lets limit to being about who gives the most handouts in a 12 month period...

- - - Updated - - -


Yea you seem to know all about me as well as all protesters being nazis

The EU? 12 month period? Tell me when the EU has finished with Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Romania, Bulgaria, and now they want to take in Serbia and Albania... It would cost Ukraine 100 billion just to change so it could become ready to join the EU, and you are talking about how they would fare once they join and what they get during 12 months? In case you haven't noticed, the Ukrainian economy was going down hill, if the Russians hadn't saved it, they would have been screwed. The EU didn't have the money to offer anything. So plz, the EU has bitten more than it can chew with the members it currently has.

So, you are denying that the violence is being done by Nazis? You have already admitted that they cause violence, yet you are doing "omg nazis? omg like in ze movies? I don't believe u!" In contrast to you, I read news, why don't you try it instead of shaking your head?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...tion-1.1642760
an ultra- nationalist party is playing a leading role and former symbols of the far-right fringe are moving into the political mainstream.

Flying above crowds in Kiev and other cities, the flags of Ukraine and the European Union mingle with red-and-black “blood and soil” nationalist banners.

Svoboda’s activists are now playing a major role in running Kiev’s main protest camp and buildings occupied by demonstrators. They were also prominent in resisting riot police who tried to storm the camp and in the highly symbolic toppling of a statue of Vladimir Lenin. Svoboda’s leader, former surgeon Oleh Tyahnybok, rouses protesters with firebrand rhetoric attacking the “anti-Ukrainian” forces running the country, and he has met visiting senior EU and US diplomats who would have shunned him in other circumstances.

[DEATHETERNAL]

The first thing that needs to happen is the insurrectionists need to be put down (yes, with lethal force). Until then, cries for change are futile.

[Cybran]

This is the USA position

CIA is involved in fascist military coups in Chile (1973), Greece (1967), the 1974 invasion of Cyprus and many many more. Them supporting a neo-nazi isn't even news worthy, it's part of their foreign policy.

The problem is that there is an overwhelming amount of regular Ukrainians that want to move away from the Russian oligrachs. You can't pretend that everyone at the protests is radical. They have been protesting peacefully for months and the insolent President has refused to to step down or call for a referendum.

[Bakis]

The EU? 12 month period? Tell me when the EU has finished with Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Romania, Bulgaria, and now they want to take in Serbia and Albania... It would cost Ukraine 100 billion just to change so it could become ready to join the EU, and you are talking about how they would fare once they join and what they get during 12 months? In case you haven't noticed, the Ukrainian economy was going down hill, if the Russians hadn't saved it, they would have been screwed. The EU didn't have the money to offer anything. So plz, the EU has bitten more than it can chew with the members it currently has.

So, you are denying that the violence is being done by Nazis? You have already admitted that they cause violence, yet you are doing "omg nazis? omg like in ze movies? I don't believe u!" In contrast to you, I read news, why don't you try it instead of shaking your head?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...tion-1.1642760
an ultra- nationalist party is playing a leading role and former symbols of the far-right fringe are moving into the political mainstream.

Flying above crowds in Kiev and other cities, the flags of Ukraine and the European Union mingle with red-and-black “blood and soil” nationalist banners.

Svoboda’s activists are now playing a major role in running Kiev’s main protest camp and buildings occupied by demonstrators. They were also prominent in resisting riot police who tried to storm the camp and in the highly symbolic toppling of a statue of Vladimir Lenin. Svoboda’s leader, former surgeon Oleh Tyahnybok, rouses protesters with firebrand rhetoric attacking the “anti-Ukrainian” forces running the country, and he has met visiting senior EU and US diplomats who would have shunned him in other circumstances.

Ukraine have a mixed market, no proper banking system, no trade agreement giving access to the European market, top it off with corruption that would make Greece look like a saint.
The EU can offer remedies to that depending on how the reformation is done on the ukraine part.
Noone said it would be easy given how missmanaged Ukraine is. Now look at what Russia can offer. If Russia already extort former satellite states into bidding their will with usury prices on gas prices etc, no wonder many in Ukraine are fearfull of a future where Ukraine is made more and more dependant on Russia and how the russian government will abuse it.

[Deleted]

CIA is involved in fascist military coups in Chile (1973), Greece (1967), the 1974 invasion of Cyprus and many many more. Them supporting a neo-nazi isn't even news worthy, it's part of their foreign policy.

The problem is that there is an overwhelming amount of regular Ukrainians that want to move away from the Russian oligrachs. You can't pretend that everyone at the protests is radical. They have been protesting peacefully for months and the insolent President has refused to to step down or call for a referendum.

It is news worthy, especially in America where majority think there were WMD's in Iraq and they also think Saddam = Al Qaida, years after being proven wrong. I'm sorry but most people are sheep..being quiet hardly helps things.

Russian? You think corruption goes along ethnic lines? Btw most "Russian oligarchs" in for example Russia, aren't ethnic Russian. We are talking here about a transition period when the economy went to hell, are you saying only one ethnicity had corruption and the others had hands clean when economy went sour? Lol?

He is insolent? He won against the no-confidence vote in parliament, are you saying democratic winners should cave into the demands of a minority? What part of democracy don't you understand?

- - - Updated - - -

Ukraine have a mixed market, no proper banking system, no trade agreement giving access to the European market, top it off with corruption that would make Greece look like a saint.
The EU can offer remedies to that depending on how the reformation is done on the ukraine part.
Noone said it would be easy given how missmanaged Ukraine is. Now look at what Russia can offer. If Russia already extort former satellite states into bidding their will with usury prices on gas prices etc, no wonder many in Ukrainse are fearfull of a future where Ukraine is made more and more dependant on Russia and how the russian government will abuse it.

Settle down on planet earth, plz. If Ukraine would make a deal with the EU and get hardly nothing in return, they would have little money in the pockets and their industry would be raped by cheap EU goods. For example, Croatia, the most recent EU member, months prior to joining moved factories to Bosnia so not to have that industry destroyed...you are acting like the EU is a golden saint that will bring fluffy presents and all will be well.

As for Russian prices, they are BELOW market prices, if Russia sold energy at market prices (like western energy companies do) then that would hurt the economies the Russians export their energy to. So in point of fact, the Russians are doing their neighbors A FUCKING FAVOR! They could have made more money by selling at market prices. Btw Russia is building pipes and infrastructure with its important economic neighbors in Asia, China, Koreas, hell Japan is practically begging Russia for energy, promising to pay for the whole infrastructure themselves. Russia doesn't even need the European energy market! Ha ha ha small wonder as factories = Asia.