Thread: Ukraine

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    This is the USA position
    CIA is involved in fascist military coups in Chile (1973), Greece (1967), the 1974 invasion of Cyprus and many many more. Them supporting a neo-nazi isn't even news worthy, it's part of their foreign policy.

    The problem is that there is an overwhelming amount of regular Ukrainians that want to move away from the Russian oligrachs. You can't pretend that everyone at the protests is radical. They have been protesting peacefully for months and the insolent President has refused to to step down or call for a referendum.

  2. #62
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    The EU? 12 month period? Tell me when the EU has finished with Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Romania, Bulgaria, and now they want to take in Serbia and Albania... It would cost Ukraine 100 billion just to change so it could become ready to join the EU, and you are talking about how they would fare once they join and what they get during 12 months? In case you haven't noticed, the Ukrainian economy was going down hill, if the Russians hadn't saved it, they would have been screwed. The EU didn't have the money to offer anything. So plz, the EU has bitten more than it can chew with the members it currently has.

    So, you are denying that the violence is being done by Nazis? You have already admitted that they cause violence, yet you are doing "omg nazis? omg like in ze movies? I don't believe u!" In contrast to you, I read news, why don't you try it instead of shaking your head?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...tion-1.1642760
    an ultra- nationalist party is playing a leading role and former symbols of the far-right fringe are moving into the political mainstream.

    Flying above crowds in Kiev and other cities, the flags of Ukraine and the European Union mingle with red-and-black “blood and soil” nationalist banners.

    Svoboda’s activists are now playing a major role in running Kiev’s main protest camp and buildings occupied by demonstrators. They were also prominent in resisting riot police who tried to storm the camp and in the highly symbolic toppling of a statue of Vladimir Lenin. Svoboda’s leader, former surgeon Oleh Tyahnybok, rouses protesters with firebrand rhetoric attacking the “anti-Ukrainian” forces running the country, and he has met visiting senior EU and US diplomats who would have shunned him in other circumstances.
    Ukraine have a mixed market, no proper banking system, no trade agreement giving access to the European market, top it off with corruption that would make Greece look like a saint.
    The EU can offer remedies to that depending on how the reformation is done on the ukraine part.
    Noone said it would be easy given how missmanaged Ukraine is. Now look at what Russia can offer. If Russia already extort former satellite states into bidding their will with usury prices on gas prices etc, no wonder many in Ukraine are fearfull of a future where Ukraine is made more and more dependant on Russia and how the russian government will abuse it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Let's keep this on track. This has nothing to do with breasts.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    CIA is involved in fascist military coups in Chile (1973), Greece (1967), the 1974 invasion of Cyprus and many many more. Them supporting a neo-nazi isn't even news worthy, it's part of their foreign policy.

    The problem is that there is an overwhelming amount of regular Ukrainians that want to move away from the Russian oligrachs. You can't pretend that everyone at the protests is radical. They have been protesting peacefully for months and the insolent President has refused to to step down or call for a referendum.
    It is news worthy, especially in America where majority think there were WMD's in Iraq and they also think Saddam = Al Qaida, years after being proven wrong. I'm sorry but most people are sheep..being quiet hardly helps things.

    Russian? You think corruption goes along ethnic lines? Btw most "Russian oligarchs" in for example Russia, aren't ethnic Russian. We are talking here about a transition period when the economy went to hell, are you saying only one ethnicity had corruption and the others had hands clean when economy went sour? Lol?

    He is insolent? He won against the no-confidence vote in parliament, are you saying democratic winners should cave into the demands of a minority? What part of democracy don't you understand?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Ukraine have a mixed market, no proper banking system, no trade agreement giving access to the European market, top it off with corruption that would make Greece look like a saint.
    The EU can offer remedies to that depending on how the reformation is done on the ukraine part.
    Noone said it would be easy given how missmanaged Ukraine is. Now look at what Russia can offer. If Russia already extort former satellite states into bidding their will with usury prices on gas prices etc, no wonder many in Ukrainse are fearfull of a future where Ukraine is made more and more dependant on Russia and how the russian government will abuse it.
    Settle down on planet earth, plz. If Ukraine would make a deal with the EU and get hardly nothing in return, they would have little money in the pockets and their industry would be raped by cheap EU goods. For example, Croatia, the most recent EU member, months prior to joining moved factories to Bosnia so not to have that industry destroyed...you are acting like the EU is a golden saint that will bring fluffy presents and all will be well.

    As for Russian prices, they are BELOW market prices, if Russia sold energy at market prices (like western energy companies do) then that would hurt the economies the Russians export their energy to. So in point of fact, the Russians are doing their neighbors A FUCKING FAVOR! They could have made more money by selling at market prices. Btw Russia is building pipes and infrastructure with its important economic neighbors in Asia, China, Koreas, hell Japan is practically begging Russia for energy, promising to pay for the whole infrastructure themselves. Russia doesn't even need the European energy market! Ha ha ha small wonder as factories = Asia.
    Last edited by Ser Arthur Dayne; 2014-01-23 at 07:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And since when has UN backing mattered for anything?
    China and Russia are global rogues, trampling international norms...
    I would rather my country be perceived from time to time, as a global bully...
    All in the same post.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    Russian? You think corruption goes along ethnic lines? Btw most "Russian oligarchs" in for example Russia, aren't ethnic Russian. We are talking here about a transition period when the economy went to hell, are you saying only one ethnicity had corruption and the others had hands clean when economy went sour? Lol?
    I am familiar with the transitional period when ties with KGB, the military or the communists meant power and wealth. It was a time arsenals were sold on the black market, governmental contracts were distributed among economical rings and when industries were scrapped on purpose and sold for cents on the dollar to crooks.

    The biggest players have always been in Moscow. They made the most money during the 90s and have links to oligarchs in the rest of the old eastern block. The people that control Gazprom and Rosatom have much more power to extort the regular people than the limp dick EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    He is insolent? He won against the no-confidence vote in parliament, are you saying democratic winners should cave into the demands of a minority? What part of democracy don't you understand?
    He should resolve parliament and the next government should prepare a referendum.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    What about the riot police/military/government classes? Or are they going to add those and PVP in the first expansion?
    Looks like the mage is riot police / government guy.

  6. #66
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    As for Russian prices, they are BELOW market prices, if Russia sold energy at market prices (like western energy companies do) then that would hurt the economies the Russians export their energy to. So in point of fact, the Russians are doing their neighbors A FUCKING FAVOR! They could have made more money by selling at market prices. Btw Russia is building pipes and infrastructure with its important economic neighbors in Asia, China, Koreas, hell Japan is practically begging Russia for energy, promising to pay for the whole infrastructure themselves. Russia doesn't even need the European energy market! Ha ha ha small wonder as factories = Asia.
    Simply stating that Ukraine can become a reformed market economy with access to a free market or stay failed with a mixed economy under the dependancy of Russia untill your government is a nothing but a puppet.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2014-01-23 at 07:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Let's keep this on track. This has nothing to do with breasts.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elestia View Post
    The Ukraine needs independent judicial oversight with the power to block radical legislation.

    So sad the excuses regular people take in order to explain injustice. It's sad when the need to survive outweighs the need to be free. These people want justice without killing.
    It's heartbreaking to see what people will learn to live with just to live another day. I couldnt agree with you more.

    I hope I see some good in the remainder of my life to temper some of the horrible shit i've seen in the first bit.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    He should resolve parliament and the next government should prepare a referendum.
    He should not. You don't understand how democracy works, the winners shouldn't end their democratic mandate just cuz the minority start whining and are sore losers. Next elections are in beginning of 2015, next year, if you don't care about the date, TOO FUCKING BAD!

    Btw ironic about referendum, it's the Russian side that has been bringing that up, the others are afraid they would loose that vote, they don't like loosing votes, bad losers thats why they, after failing their no-confidence vote, are out in the streets venting their frustrations against democracy.

    But, it's not as easy as a referendum, for or against joining the EU, when Russia is Ukraine's biggest trading partner. The best, economic deal for Ukraine, is to get the whole fucking pie! Tri-party deal, Ukraine with EU+Russia economic deal. Instead we get from the EU "you eat what we tell you to! and if you don't we'll back these protesters that lost the no-confidence vote, we'll not let democracy stand in our way! Grrrrrr!! Frust! Grrrrr!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And since when has UN backing mattered for anything?
    China and Russia are global rogues, trampling international norms...
    I would rather my country be perceived from time to time, as a global bully...
    All in the same post.

  9. #69
    BTW the "Orange Revolution" referenced in the article refers to an uprising by the Ukrainian people in response to an exit poll discrepancy of 8% with announced totals for their presidential election in 2004.

    Exit polls are considered extremely accurate because they don't predict how people vote, they indicate how people just voted.

    In the Kerry/Bush election of 2004 the Ohio exit polls showed a 6% discrepancy. Of course in that election they used both private third-party black box digital voting equipment AND exit polling. "Throughout election night, the national exit poll showed the Massachusetts senator leading President Bush by 51 percent to 48 percent. But when all the votes were counted, it was Bush who won by slightly less than three percentage points" http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/b...y_win_1102.htm

    Now in America they don't do much exit polling any more. Election night numbers come directly from the black box digital voting equipment from a private vendor.

    In America the supreme court can steal an election in broad daylight and the people will go completely limp.

    Ukranians value democracy more than Americans.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Simply stating that Ukraine can become a reformed market economy with access to a free market or stay failed with a mixed economy under the dependancy of Russia untill your government is a nothing but a puppet.
    Failed? It's not Russia's fault Ukraine fails, even with below market energy prices. Lets not forget that Russia had to built the pipe North Stream across the sea to Germany (and now building South Stream) simply because the Ukrainians have for years (especially under previous pro-Western government) been stealing Russian gas they didn't pay for, hording vast amounts. It's also not Russia's fault that its own economy is not top notch and can't immediately lift Ukraine up with it to the sky. You noticed how the last few decades have been?.. I think Ukraine will benefit in the long run. Russia is rising, and the EU have only empty threats and no money, their economic prospects don't look very good...The cards are with Ukraine, the EU will be forced against their own arrogance to make a tri-party deal, better than nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And since when has UN backing mattered for anything?
    China and Russia are global rogues, trampling international norms...
    I would rather my country be perceived from time to time, as a global bully...
    All in the same post.

  11. #71
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Ukranians value democracy more than Americans.
    If they value it, they should avoid getting dependant on a Russia who's leadership spend all day dreaming of the good 'ol days...
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Let's keep this on track. This has nothing to do with breasts.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    Instead we get from the EU "you eat what we tell you to! and if you don't we'll back these protesters that lost the no-confidence vote, we'll not let democracy stand in our way! Grrrrrr!! Frust! Grrrrr!"
    http://m.wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadom...my_teraz_.html



    Some countries managed to make the best out of their transitional period, though. Introducing an independent legal system, fighting corruption and making sure public funds are not stolen is the best option for every country. The EU itself is garbage, but some countries used it's few positive aspects to their full advantage and Ukraine could still do the same without fearing Putin and his clique.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    I think Ukraine will benefit in the long run..
    Understatement of the year, it is a complete meltdown and yes it is not russias fault but they sure as hell wouldn't mind you being stuck in it and dependant on them.

    Russia is rising, and the EU have only empty threats and no money, their economic prospects don't look very good..
    It is still far down in the pecking order. The poor rule of law and extensive corruption make Russia a nightmate to invest in.

    But sure if you value weakened democracy, worsening rule of law and an unreformed economy based on bribery and corruption and a mixed market then by all means go hug Russia.
    I'm sure the above will bring you prosperity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Let's keep this on track. This has nothing to do with breasts.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    http://m.wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadom...my_teraz_.html



    Some countries managed to make the best out of their transitional period, though. Introducing an independent legal system, fighting corruption and making sure public funds are not stolen is the best option for every country. The EU itself is garbage, but some countries used it's few positive aspects to their full advantage and Ukraine could still do the same without fearing Putin and his clique.
    Poland is neighbor to Germany, Ukraine is neighbor to Romania. Poland is a smaller country and population, its harder to reform bigger countries, for example countries like Slovenia, Baltic countries have advantage, changes are faster because they don't need bigger scale. As for Ukraine, its main trading partner is Russia, when Russia does not do well, neither does Ukraine. Also, most industry and important economic centres are in south and east, Russian speaking zones, the opposition can cry all they want. Ruskis will always be important, regardless how Ukraine swings.

    Btw you are Polish, isn't ironic that your government is in Ukraine stirring up things, stand side by side with people that hate Poland even more than Russia? That's what both camps in Ukraine at least agree on, they really, really, and I mean really, hate you^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And since when has UN backing mattered for anything?
    China and Russia are global rogues, trampling international norms...
    I would rather my country be perceived from time to time, as a global bully...
    All in the same post.

  15. #75
    http://www.policymic.com/articles/79...the-frontlines

    Some interesting pictures, there is a photographer going around the front lines and getting pictures of things, found the article in my news feed and thought I'd share it.
    I should be writing! | MAL

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Understatement of the year, it is a complete meltdown and yes it is not russias fault but they sure as hell wouldn't mind you being stuck in it and dependant on them.

    It is still far down in the pecking order. The poor rule of law and extensive corruption make Russia a nightmate to invest in.

    But sure if you value weakened democracy, worsening rule of law and an unreformed economy based on bribery and corruption and a mixed market then by all means go hug Russia.
    I'm sure the above will bring you prosperity.
    You are living in some 1990's world, here's some music to tie you in snugly.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OB28fTKSds

    You are ignorant of the changes that are taking place in Russia, you think it's some 90's gangster paradise.
    Russia is rising, you should take note of for example they are throwing billions and billions at creating their own silicone valley, and the far east is a big construction infrastructure project tying itself to China, Japan Korea etc etc. Russia is cashing in on the rising East.

    Btw how is "weakened democracy" that adopts the same laws against rioting that the west uses? How is a government that survives the no-confidence vote, in breach of democracy? I think you more than enough stated your true position, it's only 'democracy' if it bows to the west. You have a strange notion of how democracy works, no? Now, go beat up some more students in London, anti-Wall street protesters in N.Y. I think you should look at the eroding rights in the west before you start lecturing others.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hastings View Post
    http://www.policymic.com/articles/79...the-frontlines

    Some interesting pictures, there is a photographer going around the front lines and getting pictures of things, found the article in my news feed and thought I'd share it.
    Forcing the governor of Lviv to resign or else? Clearly democracy in action, just ask Bakis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    And since when has UN backing mattered for anything?
    China and Russia are global rogues, trampling international norms...
    I would rather my country be perceived from time to time, as a global bully...
    All in the same post.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Problem is he labeled all of the anti-government protesters in the streets as terrorists.
    That's not a problem, everyone understands that only the parth that attacks police lines 24/7 are terrorists, and others are not. Everyone understands it and there's no problem except for normal protesters don't stop terrorists from pretending they ARE the face of the crowd.

  18. #78
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    Forcing the governor of Lviv to resign or else? Clearly democracy in action, just ask Bakis.
    Once again you type lies, I did not once said he should be forced to resign. Stop trolling, it is the 3rd time you make up stuff.
    You just look like a complete dork when doing it and including insults in half your posts

    Btw how is "weakened democracy" that adopts the same laws against rioting that the west uses? How is a government that survives the no-confidence vote, in breach of democracy?
    Remind us again what started these riots..
    Last edited by Bakis; 2014-01-23 at 08:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Let's keep this on track. This has nothing to do with breasts.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerdrake View Post
    Russia is rising
    It is. With their resources and influence Russians could be one of the wealthiest and most powerful nations in the world. However it's contrelled by a pack of thieves led by Putin.

    http://www.economist.com/news/europe...ct-few-castles

    One of the biggest private beneficiaries of Sochi is Arkady Rotenberg, a boyhood friend and former judo partner of Mr Putin, who got rich by selling pipes to Gazprom, another state company. According to Bloomberg, Mr Rotenberg’s companies have won contracts worth $7.4 billion, more than the budget of the 2010 Vancouver Olympics. Dmitry Peskov, Mr Putin’s spokesman, insists that “no friendship can grant you access to Olympics projects.”

    A contract for the most expensive bit of the Olympics—a road connecting seaside venues with the mountains and costing nearly $9 billion—went to Russian Railways, the state rail monopoly headed by Vladimir Yakunin, a former KGB general and comrade of Mr Putin’s. Russian Railways also awarded a subcontract for the road to a private company, SK Most, with close links to Mr Yakunin. SK Most has a controlling stake in Millennium Bank, where the board of directors at one point included Mr Yakunin’s wife, and which supports his church activities. According to its website, the bank is now jointly owned by Russia Railways and its subcontractors, and is chaired by Mr Yakunin’s vice-president. Last year 25% of SK Most was bought by Gennady Timchenko, another of Mr Putin’s old acquaintances.
    Billions of dollars are stolen from taxes to criminals close to the oligarchs. If regular Russians and Ukrainians want to live better they should focus on sending these people to prison and confiscating their assets.
    Last edited by Cybran; 2014-01-23 at 08:40 PM.

  20. #80
    I don't know accurate this thing is, but if it is, no wonder Ukrainians are pissed: http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/sites/new...torship-en.jpg

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