Ukraine

[Cybran]

and this is why I didn't reply to your drivel, you now link to a NEO-NAZI website! Knew you were crazy from ur posts.

He linked "Radio Liberty" I don't think they are connected to that party.

[Asmodian]

You didnt understand a word of what I said.
I read and watch pro-Kremlim channels on daily basis and at the same time, I read other resources as well.That gives me an upper hand. As you can tell, I detest vesti.ru/ntv.ru etc.

What upper hand? Pathetic manipulation. I read news from various sources too. Detest? Maybe you can see future of the planet too?

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Self combustion near peaceful protest. Its a miracle! Call to Vatican anyone!

[Deleted]

The problem is. no matter if your right or not, the minute you start throwing firebombs and arming yourself against the police and being violent is the minute sympathy is lost. It is also the point where your protest fails as a different breed of "protester" takes over. There are plenty of channels to take to have your say heard without resorting to violence.

Other nations have already condemned the restriction on the rights of protest and it is wrong. But it doesn't give the right to behave in the way the situation is now. At this point the people cannot win. The violence will result in further suppression of the people and this time it will be justified due to the current level of violence. You cant start setting shit on fire and thrown fire bombs at the police. They may well agree with your actual protest but they still have a job to do!

[Bakis]

[QUOTE=Asmodian;24947163]
<snip>


Maybe those 5 dead people shot themselves too who knows.
Look, we can all do this all day or just acknowledge that there are criminals on both sides.

[Thunderball]

Putin and his crew are robbing the regular Russians blind. All the money that could go into better infrastructure, healthcare, housing and everything else is distributed among his close friends keeping everybody else poor. That is the real problem in our part of the world. We need to get rid of these criminals once and for all.


Also, please stop with the US examples. I don't give a shit about that country.

Dude, if you are russian, you have serious issues and shouldnt be reading about politics at all. Especially on sites like this one.

If you are not, you are just brainwashed.

[Bakis]

If you dont agree with me you are all brainwashed rawr, rawr!

[wowsucks]

To label everyone in there and put them under single banner is wrong.Its a soup of various groups, simple pro-EU people to left-wing radicals who are still nostalgic about the times when they were under Nazi banner.

Well yeah, they didnt until police got an order to start clearing Khreshatic (spelling) to which they were met with fierce opposition

The simple pro-EU people have long been gone from there, they're not crazy enough to participate in this mess.

Police started cleaning the street, because opposition broke every law they could while protesting, they took buildings under their control, build freaking baracks for themselves in the middle of the city, the government was okay with that for some time - nobody's talking about that, but after like 2 months you've got to restore the order

[Vargur]

I think imgur is spot on
http://imgur.com/gallery/lxkbH

Concluded with

[Asmodian]

Last question in that paragraph is meaningless.

It was little irony about your favorite channels. They like to be doomsayers. Yellow press.

[Wilian]

This is the exact kind of stuff Im talking about.

Those guys are trying to make Berkut as saints while labeling everyone in opposition as violent nazi.Its ridiculous.

Berkut are dogs, nothing more. They keep creating false alarms with terrorist bomb call-outs, snatch random people up and shit never to be heard again and do this sort of bullshit:

WARNING, contains nude male harassed by officers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zD3pOG-Tk

My pal in Ukraine has told that the stuff has spread now, apparently in 7 or so cities/towns people have taken over government buildings and forced resignations of people

[Thunderball]

If you dont agree with me you are all brainwashed rawr, rawr!

Look, I dont want to troll, I'd like to explain because you guys in the west either dont know anything (get missinformation) or cant interpret it because of prejustice. All the sane people out there know the deal: 1) Our politics are mostly corrupt, it's a widely known fact. But the deal is that everyone who tell that "those" are corrupt, get them to jail, are most likely either corrupt aswell or plain out insane. 2) Revolutions are bad, we've learned that the hard way. There is no easy way to freedom, it's always either war or poverty (or both). 3) Putin is not a saint, but he helped make the life better. It's quite realistic to find someone better suited for the current task (Putin economic policy is far too conservative for the situation, for example), but we dont have anyone even possibly capable. 4) US and EU have a very clean political agenda in CIS countries. They probably have slightly different goals but it's quite apparent.

[Deleted]

Those police rifles fire rubber bullets, damn u dumb.

[Asmodian]

Those guys are trying to make Berkut as saints while labeling everyone in opposition as violent nazi.Its ridiculous.

They didnt throw bottles in people. They throw it away. Its a bad karma to stand on flameable things. There was a big firewall between Berkut and protesters last night.

[Thunderball]

I think imgur is spot on
http://imgur.com/gallery/lxkbH

Most of it is completely fine. I dont get how they are gonna make the "driving in columns" part working, and thing about prohibiting internet access seems unclear.

[wowsucks]

They havent,believe me.
Wrong order. President issued laws that ban any kind of protesting and thats when shit got real.The next day police was sent in to clear it since the anti-protesting law had taken place.They took buildings in Lviv and other cities only yesterday/today.
Also its only in last 48h when he(president,cant be arsed to spell it correctly) seems start listening to the other side.Too late :-/

No, they didnt ban all protesting, they regulated it because of abuse. Wrong order? Who decides, you? Are you saying opposition didnt break the law, didnt take any buildings for themselves in the center of Kiev, didnt build barricades? - this whole place should have been cleared in November like in any civilized society, the Ukrainian government was too kind at first.

Got a problem with the existing order - elections are next year, go and vote, thats how democracy works

[Vargur]

No, they didnt ban all protesting, they regulated it because of abuse. Wrong order? Who decides, you? Are you saying opposition didnt break the law, didnt take any buildings for themselves in the center of Kiev, didnt build barricades? - this whole place should have been cleared in November in any civilized society, the Ukrainian government was too kind at first.

Got a problem with the existing order - elections are next year, go and vote, thats how democracy works

Except there needs to be viable candidates in the first place. Pretty sure some candidates can be "persuaded" to give up.

[Cybran]

Look, I dont want to troll, I'd like to explain because you guys in the west either dont know anything (get missinformation) or cant interpret it because of prejustice

This part might be true for Bakis, but not for me.

All the sane people out there know the deal: 1) Our politics are mostly corrupt, it's a widely known fact. But the deal is that everyone who tell that "those" are corrupt, get them to jail, are most likely either corrupt aswell or plain out insane. 2) Revolutions are bad, we've learned that the hard way. There is no easy way to freedom, it's always either war or poverty (or both). 3) Putin is not a saint, but he helped make the life better. It's quite realistic to find someone better suited for the current task (Putin economic policy is far too conservative for the situation, for example), but we dont have anyone even possibly capable. 4) US and EU have a very clean political agenda in CIS countries. They probably have slightly different goals but it's quite apparent.

1) Reducing corruption is a gradual process that can't start while the power is concentrated in a single man and his pseudo party

2) Mostly true, but some of the old block countries shook off the issues. There is no reason the rest can't do the same.

3) It's true that he keeps the country stable, but that doesn't excuse his practices.

4) They want access to the markets, cheap labour and your resources. But does the oligarchy really offer anything else?

[SenSayNyu]

Dunno how it's treated in EU, but in my book people trying to burn other people should be treated accordingly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7k0MjODEQY

[Isilbêth]

I think that many people don't have any understanding of the political situation in Ukraine.
Myself, I have travelled (and I still travel) often to that country.
Something which is not perceived in the Western countries is that all the political parties in Ukraine are managed by corrupt politicians, as well in the majority as in the opposition (though Klitchko is an exception). Timochenko was not an exception.
There are riots and demonstrators only in a small part of Kiev and not in the other towns of the country. The demonstrators in Kiev represent only 0.0021% of the total population of Ukraine.
In the country, it is known that many of those demonstrators are paid by the opposition parties to demonstrate on the Maidan. When the violence broke out, most of the non-violent demonstrators have left the Maidan place and the most violent demonstrators stayed.
Ukrainian people do not want to be European, nor Russian, but independent. But their economy is very dependant of Russia. And EU cannot be of any help to change this situation, because of a very simple reason: Ukraine needs Russian gas, as well as EU, which buys very large amounts of Russian gas for Bulgaria, Romania, etc.
EU is very clearly not capable to supply enough energy to Ukraine, because it doesn't have enough energy for itself, and needs the Russian gas.
So, all the rest about Ukraine signing (or not signing) an agreement with the EU is only political blah blah, which does not resist to the fact of the economical situation.

[Bakis]

I think that many people don't have any understanding of the political situation in Ukraine.
Myself, I have travelled (and I still travel) often to that country.
Something which is not perceived in the Western countries is that all the political parties in Ukraine are managed by corrupt politicians, as well in the majority as in the opposition (though Klitchko is an exception). Timochenko was not an exception.
There are riots and demonstrators only in a small part of Kiev and not in the other towns of the country. The demonstrators in Kiev represent only 0.0021% of the total population of Ukraine.
In the country, it is known that many of those demonstrators are paid by the opposition parties to demonstrate on the Maidan. When the violence broke out, most of the non-violent demonstrators have left the Maidan place and the most violent demonstrators stayed.
Ukrainian people do not want to be European, nor Russian, but independent. But their economy is very dependant of Russia. And EU cannot be of any help to change this situation, because of a very simple reason: Ukraine needs Russian gas, as well as EU, which buys very large amounts of Russian gas for Bulgaria, Romania, etc.
EU is very clearly not capable to supply enough energy to Ukraine, because it doesn't have enough energy for itself, and needs the Russian gas.
So, all the rest about Ukraine signing (or not signing) an agreement with the EU is only political blah blah, which does not resist to the fact of the economical situation.

As you say Ukraine is being held hostage by Russia, why else would it be such a problem to take steps towards EU-friendly reforms and still buy gas from Russia without having to suddenly pay extortion prices..