Celestion thinks MoP needed CC, lol

[StrayFox]

Unless, and this is a big leap of assumption on my part... unless eluding to CC means they are gonna start over tuning the WoD dungeons and make them less zerg/faceroll. Adding CC as they stand is just plain dumb. But, if he wants to add CC, maybe... and this is a big maybe... they are planning to tune dungeons back up for difficulty.

They are making Heroic Dungeons more difficult, a blue posted this a while back.

[Socialhealer]

I actually Recruit-a-Friend my Monk to 80.99% and power leveled to 90 by that Thursday night. I Brewmaster Tanked MoP dungeons (having experience Guardian Druid tanking before that). And the one spot that ALWAYS got me were the packs before the Bridge in Shado-Pan Monestary. They hit like a freaken truck in greens and blues. It probably didn't help they do magic damage and I was still getting used to Brewmaster tanking and dealing with magic damage at the time. But a month or so later after the expansion, Blizzard did nerf those packs so that they were not hitting as hard. But still that first few weeks, it was desired that some CC (whether it was chains of Ice, Paralisis, or whatever) on those two pack, or a Healer external cooldown on the tank was desired.

yeh those packs needed to be nerfed because the damage they did vs every other MoP heroic was broken, they basically did triple the damage of any other pack which sure made a challenge but a rather random out of place surprise one, which made no sense so deserved to be nerfed.

[Heladys]

Ah common dont be like that thing is dungeons in MoP really were easy and you cant deny that at least :P

Is there an objective standard for easy? The stuff we used to find hard were partially due to tactics requirements due to gear levels and partially due to lesser familiarity with the game.

Most of us have been training intently at this for 9 years or so now, I don't think it's particularly fair to expect that degree of judgment from a new player given the utter lack of training the game provides. With so many "pro" types out there who blow through everything without CC to prove they can, is there any wonder new players don't even learn good habits by osmosis?

[schwank05]

I hope they are cata or BC caliber 5 mans now that would be some sweet 5 man content.

[PosPosPos]

Of course they are to someone as amazingly talented and awesome as you. From now on I will live your example and two man all content.

To be fair, you seem to be advocating that people needed, keyword "needed" cc throughout MoP dungeons.

In most cases, CC is more of a bonus rather an a real necessity.

Disclaimer: I am not referring to CMs.

[Darsithis]

Ah common dont be like that thing is dungeons in MoP really were easy and you cant deny that at least :P

Well if you say something like "stop licking Blizzard's ass" you're gonna get a reply like that. I also never said MoP dungeons weren't easy. They are. I'm saying to the OP that his assumption that everyone must play just like him and never ever use CC is wrong.

To be fair, you seem to be advocating that people needed, keyword "needed" cc throughout MoP dungeons.

In most cases, CC is more of a bonus rather an a real necessity.

Disclaimer: I am not referring to CMs.

Nope. Not in the slightest. I personally only used CC a few times right after hitting the level cap when it came to Gekken. At this point I can solo all of the heroics on my frost DK...because I outgear them by 101 item levels. CC wasn't really needed unless your group was in questing greens and struggled.

[Mongoose19]

Your experience is not everyone's experience. Just because you managed to brute-force your way through every dungeon trash pack & boss doesn't mean the rest of WoW did.

Lowest common denominator - let's design the content around it, brilliant!

[Heladys]

I hope they are cata or BC caliber 5 mans now that would be some sweet 5 man content.

What I'd like is a normal mode that's cake for newbs and hopefully teaches them something, even if it's an NPC who tags along and says "wouldn't it be great to stun the healer before the pull?" or whatever. Who knows, it may stick.

Heroics that we can blow through for valor farming at cap, much like now.

And finally, gear-scaled mythic modes that demand BC heroic level coordination (without the mandatory paladin+mage bodies in every run) which we could all run at level cap for fun and gear-appropriate prizes (come in wearing TierX-ilevel gear, come out with a chance of winning TierX-1 thru TierX+1 equivalent ilevel non-tier gear).

- - - Updated - - -

Lowest common denominator - let's design the content around it, brilliant!

You're talking about dungeons here, not heroic raiding. Get a grip please.

[PosPosPos]

Well if you say something like "stop licking Blizzard's ass" you're gonna get a reply like that. I also never said MoP dungeons weren't easy. They are. I'm saying to the OP that his assumption that everyone must play just like him and never ever use CC is wrong.



Nope. Not in the slightest. I personally only used CC a few times right after hitting the level cap when it came to Gekken. At this point I can solo all of the heroics on my frost DK...because I outgear them by 101 item levels. CC wasn't really needed unless your group was in questing greens and struggled.

Well, glad that's cleared up then.

For me, when I first dinged 90 as a holy paladin(I started the game midway into T14), I never ran into a situation where CC was needed in heroic dungeons, so I was rather curious when and where was CC needed.

[crunk]

idk stunning a thing or dropping a ring of frost still helps in some heroics - those count as CCs

[Darsithis]

Lowest common denominator - let's design the content around it, brilliant!

That's such a specious argument. There is content for the lowest common denominator out there - MoP heroics. Then there are more challenging things: challenge modes, heroic scenarios, heroic raids...

[Count Zero]

Lowest common denominator - let's design the content around it, brilliant!

Or you can do what Blizz actually does, and make different kinds of content for different kinds of players. Perhaps to a fault, even.

[Mongoose19]

You're talking about dungeons here, not heroic raiding. Get a grip please.

Not only dungeons, quests, scenarios, outdoor mobs, heroic dungeons etc. It's pretty much majority of then content. Content =/= raids. Content is everything, and majority of that everything is piss take easy to conform the lowest common denominator.

[Lovestar]

Not the end of the world though, but solid 5 man progression would really make me fall in love all over again.
If Celestalon is so out of the loop that he is making comments like this, I think we all know it wont be happening.

That is my concern as well. I know it's easy to overreact to offhand comments (the bane of casual public discussion is that everything you say gets recorded and repeated over and over). But, if the dev team thinks MoP Heroics classify "needs CC" conditions, I already weep for WoD dungeon design.

That said, LFD doesn't preclude "real" dungeons any more than LFR does, in the sense that "real" dungeons will just need to be split away from the queue — like Heroic Scens, Flex, etc.

[willemh]

Cata heroics required CC at launch. MoP dungeons really didnt.

An argument that goes like 'If you dont play properly you needed CC' isnt really an argument in my eyes. Ofcourse when someone makes a statement 'CC wasnt needed in MoP' he ASSUMES proper play. If we have to base arguments and statements around players who cant play this game or play dungeons with 1 hand on their dick and 2 eyes on their facebook then theres really something going wrong somewhere.

Playing properly is the general rule, not an exception, when making an argument.

[Mammoon]

Maybe Celestion has tons of data that none of us have access to and the truth is 90% of players used CC on the majority of pulls on MoP heroics....

As for the rest of us who live in the real world (of warcraft), I never ever saw people CC in MoP heroic dungeons outside of Gekkan, and that was only the first few days of MoP... and if you didn't CC it was fine, it just generally took a bit longer if people missed interrupts.

To me, this is just another example of Blizz employees being out of touch with the playerbase. I am not advocating for harder/easier heroic dungeons, but it would be nice to see Blizzard actually speak the truth instead of the constant "well numbers (that we won't share) show that people do X... and the entire playerbase says Y class is OP but they are wrong cause of our numbers (but in 3 months we will realize they are OP and nerf them)."

[Dilbon]

I'm a normal raider who uses flex to gear and considers normal raids as progression. So i'm not a top player or heroic raider type.

You're still in the top 5%. I guess everyone who reads MMO-C is in the top 10% so they have no idea what the average player is.

[Icyflamez]

That's such a specious argument. There is content for the lowest common denominator out there - MoP heroics. Then there are more challenging things: challenge modes, heroic scenarios, heroic raids...

Not a lot of people do challenge modes because the difficulty does not reward enough for it to be even worth it. I personally like what the guy above said:

"gear-scaled mythic modes that demand BC heroic level coordination (without the mandatory paladin+mage bodies in every run) which we could all run at level cap for fun and gear-appropriate prizes (come in wearing TierX-ilevel gear, come out with a chance of winning TierX-1 thru TierX+1 equivalent ilevel non-tier gear)."

Sort of like challenge modes but actually with a potential reward other than a bit more valor and a one-time gear set.

[Mihalik]

While I wouldn't classify MoP heroics as hard, there were certainly places we used it when the entire group was fresh to 90. Shadopan Monestary was one place, especially with the sha dudes before the bridge and the big panda packs before the last boss. We also used CC in Mogushan Palace, and I'm sure a few other places, too. Was it absolutely necessary? Probably not if your group was good. Did it make things smoother early on? Absolutely. Would it be recommended to less skilled or experienced groups? Sure!

I'm sure there were plenty of players out there who benefited from using CC in Mist dungeons.

While I partially agree with you, MoP 5mans are the easiest HC's in WoW's history. Even at the hight of WotLK 5 man HC's simply weren't soloable under 5 mins by any dps with SoO normal gear. Now the only two instances that take more then 5 mins to solo are the Siege of Niuzao (or whatever it's name is, with the waves boss even) just because you need to dick around and do RP for 5 mins, and Scholomance just because it is so long and has some gimmicks/gating and RP.

[Lagmonster]

Still,
Cata 4.0 heroics minus the raped healers, thanks.

Yeah that really sucked those first few weeks. Was hilarious how H. Pally could heal through the normal stupid, but any other healer was oom in like 20 seconds if shit went wrong. Good times