Solo players are majority in MMOs...

[Lovestar]

this is what LFR has done, now on mmo champion, the holy grail of mmo sites, you have the majority of posters saying that they agree and that solo game play should be more prominent in an mmo....

This has absolutely nothing to do with LFR and instead has to do with MMOs becoming playable for solo players by changing the EverQuest-era mechanic where progression was not possible without a group. You can thank Vanilla WoW and its sisters for that. (And you should, it opened the genre to a much wider audience that has since learned to appreciate cooperative play too)

I would never, ever have gotten into the detailed aspects of MMOs if I hadn't started with WoW and its gentle "Hey, you can level too!" design. Even though I'm way past that now, there's thousands of newcomers who aren't, and we should be supporting and encouraging their motivation to stay in any given persistent or cooperative world.

[Deleted]

This has absolutely nothing to do with LFR and instead has to do with MMOs becoming playable for solo players by changing the EverQuest-era mechanic where progression was not possible without a group. You can thank Vanilla WoW and its sisters for that. (And you should, it opened the genre to a much wider audience that has since learned to appreciate cooperative play too)

Except that in general, randomly bunching together people into a group to tackle content - usually does not result in good comradery.

So, the person you are quoting has a point, to an extent - but it's not the reason, no.

[Lane]

Also, why would one expect a self-selected group of people who spend their free time on computers to be particularly social? I figure they'd be overweighted with in shy/introverted/asocial types.

This is true. Not that it's probably apparent from my forum posting, but I am very shy and introverted in social situations. I often don't say anything unless someone else says something I feel like I have something constructive to add to, which is practically never in short term group situations. I am not interested in small talk at all. I'm much more apt to jump into a conversation occurring in a global chat than to say anything to strangers I'm grouped with for a quest or dungeon.

[Itisamuh]

Geez, you are totally not part of the problem. You make it sound like you cannot even find 9 other decent people in a guild ^^

How is he part of the problem, by simply not wanting to sift through the morons to find a few pleasant ones to group with, when he can easily just play solo most of the time anyway?

[Deleted]

Also, why would one expect a self-selected group of people who spend their free time on computers to be particularly social? I figure they'd be overweighted with in shy/introverted/asocial types.

A majority of the WoW players i know of however, are not asocial types. There are too aswell, but overall - It's more about accessability of being social to them.

You don't just talk to people in dungeons or General, cuz in Dungeons you're on Auto-Pilot, and on General you're arguing or W/e, so.

[Lovestar]

Except that in general, randomly bunching together people into a group to tackle content - usually does not result in good comradery.

It's an issue of expectations. We're in an era where people expect to succeed at everything, whereas before if you were attempting a 'hard' quest or A DUNGEON (gasp!) you weren't particularly shocked if you wiped multiple times or even didn't get it done; you tried again tomorrow.

Now, I mean, yes, that sucks. It's very discouraging. But since Blizz keeps scaling down the difficulty/complexity to ensure that doesn't happen, people become angrier and angrier if it does, because many of the people still doing it are the ones who like that guaranteed-gratification and time-efficiency idea.

Sadly, another factor is the time required to educate people. When you're just dealing with people in your level range on your server, the chance you'll see them again and group with them again is very high. You will probably make friends and keep running stuff together at max level. It's worth your time to be patient and learn together.

When you're dealing with some random person, from some random server, who will drop group the second they get their end reward after never speaking to you once — it becomes a lot more tempting to log out and play Battlefield 4 or wash dishes than sit in a chair and wipe for the 15th time while you explain why not to AoE the sheep.

But I think this is entirely separate from people liking solo options in MMOs. Like, totally separate, since people liked soloing and gchatting while picking herbs long before even Dungeon Finder went in. Some people dedicated alts to hiding from their guild just to have some quiet time while still being online to chat with friends, etc.

[Kelathos]

Thus the outrage towards Cross Realm Zones. Don't want other players in my single player experience!

It's the tragic tale of themepark MMO design which has discarded meaningful player interaction. When players get between you and your objectives... instead of being your objective. This tragedy is why some of us call for sandbox elements, if not full out game designs. Where players build something, and others come to knock it down or otherwise interact with it. We can do so much more with online experiences, they shouldn't be tailored to be single player treadmills.

A living, breathing, interactive world. Many have tried, many more must still try. We can do better.

[Fayth]

..as said by Wildstar dev: "And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were)."
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...f_the_game.php

How do you feel about more people tend to play solo in MMO? Tbh, I dont know where he get that info from, but surely not out of the blue sky.

If you want to make a true MMO that requires a lot of team play, you have to target a niche audience

[Deleted]

It's an issue of expectations. We're in an era where people expect to succeed at everything, whereas before if you were attempting a 'hard' quest or A DUNGEON (gasp!) you weren't particularly shocked if you wiped multiple times or even didn't get it done; you tried again tomorrow.

Now, I mean, yes, that sucks. It's very discouraging. But since Blizz keeps scaling down the difficulty/complexity to ensure that doesn't happen, people become angrier and angrier if it does, because many of the people still doing it are the ones who like that guaranteed-gratification and time-efficiency idea.

Sadly, another factor is the time required to educate people. When you're just dealing with people in your level range on your server, the chance you'll see them again and group with them again is very high. You will probably make friends and keep running stuff together at max level. It's worth your time to be patient and learn together.

When you're dealing with some random person, from some random server, who will drop group the second they get their end reward after never speaking to you once — it becomes a lot more tempting to log out and play Battlefield 4 or wash dishes than sit in a chair and wipe for the 15th time while you explain why not to AoE the sheep.

But I think this is entirely separate from people liking solo options in MMOs. Like, totally separate, since people liked soloing and gchatting while picking herbs long before even Dungeon Finder went in. Some people dedicated alts to hiding from their guild just to have some quiet time while still being online to chat with friends, etc.

I do agree on some of the major points you yield - most defenitly. With the constraints of time and what not.

Not that i nessecarily agree to the fact of likelyhood of making friends - more then being forced to, but still.

Albeit the last point, i disagree with. Because the phenomenon of people wanting "me-time" or w/e, by probability is not the 65% acclaimed number.

There's a lot of reasons really for thoose whom are still social but just don't play in Group plays - finding people, dedicating to the issue, finding someone your skill level, making sure its people you like, etc. etc.

Its not as easy as you would think it is, unless it's your friends already playing.

Personally - I like solo content because it makes me free to rely on no-one else. I really dislike the idea of relying on a team-mate, as i am used to failure and death in such cases. But that's just me tho, and i'm one random guy. So.

[Mormolyce]

It's true of every game really. It's simple, single player is the least investment required. Even for the most trivial multiplayer experience, you have to activate the social part of your brain. Which is actually probably the most complex part of the human brain. Sometimes you just CBF dealing with that, it's not even a matter of negative experiences or whatnot.

Even I play 90% solo these days.

[SodiumChloride]

So what would you propose then; all of WoW's content to be ran under the LFD/LFR ethos? Everything in the game to be possible with a simple queue and 9, 19 (Mythic) or 24 complete and utter strangers by your side; most of whom you'll never speak to or even meet again?

Sorry, but the group requirement for serious raiding and PvP is one of the few things that stops this game going to the dogs.

IMHO, just don't force it.

Even LFR is forced grouping to be frank - just that it's done for you.

Grouping should be mutually beneficial to all involved parties, but completely optional.

[Deleted]

Is anyone surprised?

Finding a group to play with is hard enough as is, if you don't already have a group of friends playing or you're not into super hardcore raiding.

And how is you supposed to find group, when there is no necesity for it? In old times, there was thing like: Alone i kill this mob in 2min, together with another guy we kill it in 45s, i will get les xp and gold, but this way it is safer and we will be able to cover more ground

And nowadays? i kill this mob in 10s, so i realy dont need another guy help when i can do it easily alone

[mickybrighteyes]

It's true of every game really. It's simple, single player is the least investment required. .

I'd more say that the single player portions are the least developed rather than the least investment required.... more often I find that you have to put in far more to run solo than you would normally if you grabbed a friend

[Deleted]

While many seem to think this is laughable, I personally see this as a major epidemic and issue on the horizon. MMO's are meant to be social games and if players are playing largely solo then something is wrong. I don't REALLY want to get into the topic of "LFD/LFR" but Blizzard as on the forefront of making a game, that is suppose to be community orientated into more of a single player experience. The game has facilitated the community to the point that everything is automated and gauged by numbers.

"Want to do a raid? We have LFR and Flex for you, with our own version of oQueue coming in WoD! What, you want to do a real raid? Well, I know that finding good players is hard so we took the idea of GearScore and brought in visible Item Level! Now you can be rated on your gear!"

Its a bit of an over dramatization but really its closer to the truth than it should be. The game now facilitates so much automation that you can not only get to max level without ever speaking to another player but also get a full set of epic gear without any social interaction. The reason to actually go out and socialize is drifting further and further away thanks to "Convenience". When does it get to a point where convenience goes too far though and becomes damaging to an "MMO", a genre that is suppose to be social focused.

Yes, ease of access and convenience are both nice but there is a point at which it goes too far and becomes detrimental to the gaming experience overall. I think that Blizzard is starting to see that with some changes to LFD in WoD but have we passed the point of no return yet? Are MMO's doomed to favor convenience for the solo player over social interaction forever now? WoW leads by example and more and more MMO's are becoming less willing to break that example in fear of alienating possible players. Is this good or is this bad? Are heavily social required MMO's now a Niche that no one will invest in, even though they were a large niche back in the day of UO and EQ to begin with.

I know this is about a Wildstar originated comment, but really... I feel that MMO's becoming popular have had a bad impact on the ideology of an MMO overall and are no longer for people who like mmo's but instead they are a big player grab that is focused solely on money instead of social interaction.

Quoting because its worth it. Very good post!

[Mormolyce]

While many seem to think this is laughable, I personally see this as a major epidemic and issue on the horizon. MMO's are meant to be social games and if players are playing largely solo then something is wrong. I don't REALLY want to get into the topic of "LFD/LFR" but Blizzard as on the forefront of making a game, that is suppose to be community orientated into more of a single player experience. The game has facilitated the community to the point that everything is automated and gauged by numbers.

"Want to do a raid? We have LFR and Flex for you, with our own version of oQueue coming in WoD! What, you want to do a real raid? Well, I know that finding good players is hard so we took the idea of GearScore and brought in visible Item Level! Now you can be rated on your gear!"

Its a bit of an over dramatization but really its closer to the truth than it should be. The game now facilitates so much automation that you can not only get to max level without ever speaking to another player but also get a full set of epic gear without any social interaction. The reason to actually go out and socialize is drifting further and further away thanks to "Convenience". When does it get to a point where convenience goes too far though and becomes damaging to an "MMO", a genre that is suppose to be social focused.

Yes, ease of access and convenience are both nice but there is a point at which it goes too far and becomes detrimental to the gaming experience overall. I think that Blizzard is starting to see that with some changes to LFD in WoD but have we passed the point of no return yet? Are MMO's doomed to favor convenience for the solo player over social interaction forever now? WoW leads by example and more and more MMO's are becoming less willing to break that example in fear of alienating possible players. Is this good or is this bad? Are heavily social required MMO's now a Niche that no one will invest in, even though they were a large niche back in the day of UO and EQ to begin with.

I know this is about a Wildstar originated comment, but really... I feel that MMO's becoming popular have had a bad impact on the ideology of an MMO overall and are no longer for people who like mmo's but instead they are a big player grab that is focused solely on money instead of social interaction.

I understand concerns over MMOs losing the second "M", but LFD and LFR and whatnot are all just options. If you choose to play like that instead of finding a group and dungeoning or raiding with them (in the same way you would've in Vanilla or TBC or Wrath), you've only got yourself to blame for the game not being group based enough.

Hell Flexi sizing (especially the WoD variety) actually makes operating a guild a lot easier.

- - - Updated - - -

Not leveling, raiding. It was orphic and intimidating for the average player and anyone walking around in tier sets was like a mysterious nephilim demigod descended to earth. People who tried raiding usually had their asses handed to them, again as much because of ignorance/tedium mechanics as anything. =)

Did someone dare you to use the word orphic in a sentence? :P

- - - Updated - - -

I'd more say that the single player portions are the least developed rather than the least investment required.... more often I find that you have to put in far more to run solo than you would normally if you grabbed a friend

Well that's in games that are designed for group content, where going solo is essentially "doing it wrong".

What I meant is that if I sit down and decide to play WoW for 20 minutes before dinner is ready, I'm going to do something solo. Because who has time to find a group? And that's true of a large proportion of your gaming time when you get older and have a lot of IRL stuff to deal with too.

[mickybrighteyes]

Well that's in games that are designed for group content, where going solo is essentially "doing it wrong".

Really though, the genre needs the formula shaken up quite a bit. Like to the point where bosses aren't made to be killed like pinatas sort of upending type of shake up.

[Deleted]

Really though, the genre needs the formula shaken up quite a bit. Like to the point where bosses aren't made to be killed like pinatas sort of upending type of shake up.

Why? You got millions of people accustomed to the system, for years. Don't you dare touch my system

[mickybrighteyes]

Why? You got millions of people accustomed to the system, for years. Don't you dare touch my system

because it's no longer new or original... I'm not saying change how it is in the existing games, but that the next generation of games had better damn well be better....

And I went 3+ months on a toon my main toon in wrath, cata, AND mop seeing no upgrades drop or losing the rolls when they did while raiding each week, so I'm a little biased against RNG heavy loot mechanics. I kinda want to see something like taking over sections of a 'raid' grants access to the enemy army's armory or resource spots where you can gather 'rare' mats for crafting. Oh and making bosses fucking hard sounds like a plus for me (so long as they aren't designed as the primary source of character improvement)

[Achaman]

Thats why all MMOs have become terrible. No Elite-Quests anymore, no need to socialize with other players. You can just do everything solo until maxlevel and thats fucking boring.
Its all WoW fault, because they casualized the Game way way way too much with Wrath of the CasualKing.

i fucking hate the heroic missions (elite quests) in swtor they take forever to get a group for and half of them endup being full of idiots especially those that dont understand the concept of croud control

i wish i could skip them but the exp is usually so good

sure you could do dungeons to make up for the exp but unless your a tank/healer the queue takes ages (im healer and it still takes a good 10min)

[Lane]

Personally - I like solo content because it makes me free to rely on no-one else. I really dislike the idea of relying on a team-mate, as i am used to failure and death in such cases. But that's just me tho, and i'm one random guy. So.

I'm the same way.